IT Chapter Two |OT| Hello |SPOILERS|

[Memento]

Just arrived from the movies...

I... really didnt like it. It was so, so boring. Also, it seems like there was at least one comedic relief each minute of the movie. That was so bad wow...

Also the fact that the second half of the movie is basically 1:1 compared to the first one is so bullshit. Shit was really boring.

I usually admire these kind of movies for what they are but this one is straight up bad.

The only redeeming feature of it are the Pennywise scenes. The rest of it was really bad.

PS: I really liked the first one.

 

[rude]

The 1990 miniseries is airing on Syfy right now and it's...really competently made compared to these recent 2 movies. I'd never seen it before.

 

[Josh5890]

Just saw part 2. It was ok. Nothin special. I think they tried too hard to make it funny in some parts where it wasn't needed.

I'm curious, how faithful is both films to the book?

 

[HotHamBoy]

Just saw part 2. It was ok. Nothin special. I think they tried too hard to make it funny in some parts where it wasn't needed.

I'm curious, how faithful is both films to the book?

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I'm reading IT right now and as far as adaptational choices go so far I'd say it's very faithful in terms of substance and story beats. What isn't faithful is the structure, which jumps back and forth between 57 and 85 every chapter or so. You kinda get a sense of this in IT Chapter 2 but it's meant to run like that for the entire length of the story.

The choice to de-couple the two narrative timelines makes sense, I think the films would seem way messier than they already do and Chapter 1 would not have had a satisfying ending. But it does cause other problems like the sense that the second movie is repeating beats in the first.

 

[DeathPeak]

A lot of people seem to dislike the kid parts, but scenes like them all sitting in the club house just being friends are exactly what I wish Chapter 1 would have had.

 

[Aprikurt]

Definitely a big step down from the first, despite the adult actors being perfectly cast.

The whole "find your totem" thing just feels like the setup to a video game, and it becomes super formulaic from there. Each kid finds their thing -> each kid has a flashback -> each kid confronts that flashback as an adult and just manages to escape.

Also... it's funny? Like really funny. Like, Guardians of the Galaxy funny at some moments. Which is great... but... odd

 

[Tophat Jones]

I liked it. The first 30 minutes or so were so similar to the book, I was loving it. All of the characters were casted perfectly. And had good chemistry.

Though it was to long, not really scary in the slightest but it was 'fun' scary. I like how they came back around to things it seemed were skipped in part 1. Pennywise was good again, especially when not CGI'd.

I'm satisfied.

 

[Laserdisk]

If I wanted a dumb bad CGI giant movie with one guy in one the joke I would have watched Jack The Giant slayer.

 

[Cpt-GargameL]

"The book ends where the second movie ends, so that is the final chapter of this story," Skarsgard tells EW. "There is this interesting aspect of going back in time before all this happened. There might be a story there that might be worth exploring. Obviously that would be a story that's not in the book, it would be a freestanding story, but obviously within the same universe."

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https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.vi...eady-has-a-plan-for-a-prequel-to-it-chapter-2

 

[Donald Draper]

Give me a different director and writer, make it full horror and I'd be down for a pennywise prequel.

 

[Galactic Specter]

Give me a different director and writer, make it full horror and I'd be down for a pennywise prequel.

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I imagine Stephen King would consult for the story.

We kind of got hints of Pennywise's past in Derry during the Mrs. Kersh scene where we saw him without makeup.

 

[Teiresias]

Definitely a big step down from the first, despite the adult actors being perfectly cast.

The whole "find your totem" thing just feels like the setup to a video game, and it becomes super formulaic from there. Each kid finds their thing -> each kid has a flashback -> each kid confronts that flashback as an adult and just manages to escape.

Also... it's funny? Like really funny. Like, Guardians of the Galaxy funny at some moments. Which is great... but... odd

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I mean, the adults going around the town happened in the novel, but I can't remember the setup for why it happened. I think it was less a "find your magic item" justification and more of a "go to places around the town to help you remember how it felt back then so we'll have a better chance against Pennywise".

The movie had some problems and some changes I dislike, but the whole Richie and Eddie thing really made me smile as a gay man. I just kind of appreciated it even if it kind of wimped out at the end with him not really telling anyone on-screen. I choose to believe it happened off screen since everyone remembers everything at the end, unlike the novel.

 

[GatsGatsby]

I was satisfied with it definitely will buy when it comes to blu ray. My expectations were a little low since I never completely enjoyed the second part of the book or the miniseries. Honestly the most disturbing part for me was watching Adrian get beat up. Reading that part in the book I didnt get the same reaction since your in control of what you read you can skip it or read faster so it doesnt stick in your head but in the theater it was right infront of your face and visceral I couldnt look away. They did improve a good bit from the miniseries ending which is a plus. I knew they couldnt and shouldnt go full book on the ending its just too out there unfortunately.

I do feel like I laughed more than I should have at other parts but I still enjoyed it alot.

 

[Pandora012]

Really enjoyed the movie. Probably more than than part 1.

 

[Deleted member 15428]

Just saw it.

It was the Lord of the Rings of horror movies. I thought it would never end. If they trimmed multiple scenes it could have been good.

 

[CloudWolf]

I do wonder what the hell Bill's plan was with his totem finding quest. He could've hardly predicted that ghost Georgie would show up in a storm drain and hand him the actual paper boat he made as a kid.

 

[Hey Please]

Saw it yesterday and enjoyed it. Not as much as the first one but still did so overall. My biggest qualm is the with overusage of CGI sequences. I felt the first one struck a perfect balance but this one just went overboard (esp. the restaurant scene). Nothing beats anticipation of a scare and if The Thing has proven anything it is that CGI's smooth motion and lack of grittiest sense of weight does more harm than good.

The casting was top notch and so was the final form of Pennywise. Not having read the book there are still questions that linger on for me:

1. Was it hubris that prevented Pennywise from killing the protagonists given he had myriad opportunities to do so?

2. I thought his OG form was akin to a bird but the way the deadlights interact- they are part of him but also exist outside of him.... so what exactly is his true form? Is it the light or the body or are they a combine form tethered together (given he does die when his heart, taken from his body, is demolished).

3. Why is the entire path of descent for the creature when it first landed looked like a toothy, spiny vagina pulsating and contracting? Given the impact site, it looks like the surrounding structure actually grew upwards.

PS: TIL that Bill Skarsgard can use one his lazy eyes to do that off kilter stare which I have always found disturbing.

 

[NotoriousPUG]

I do wonder what the hell Bill's plan was with his totem finding quest. He could've hardly predicted that ghost Georgie would show up in a storm drain and hand him the actual paper boat he made as a kid.

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He was going to his old house. That storm drain is near it.

 

[crimsonlink]

I liked the movie. I do feel the kids in part 1 were stronger overall and a better movie. It wasn't as scary as adults vs the monster lol. But it was like that for the book too.

I don't like Ben's adult actor though. Jay Ryan is fine and all but as a grown up Ben, wasn't feeling it. Everyone else fit for the grown up cast though.

Best part of the movie was when they beat up on Pennywise. Did they make a turtle reference btw? Didn't hear it if they did or not.

 

[Gustaf]

honestly this is not a horror movie, it's and adventure movie.

the adults going back to take revenge on the thing that almost killed them when they were child, is not a horror movie set up

 

[Officer Big Mac]

I liked the movie. I do feel the kids in part 1 were stronger overall and a better movie. It wasn't as scary as adults vs the monster lol. But it was like that for the book too.

I don't like Ben's adult actor though. Jay Ryan is fine and all but as a grown up Ben, wasn't feeling it. Everyone else fit for the grown up cast though.

Best part of the movie was when they beat up on Pennywise. Did they make a turtle reference btw? Didn't hear it if they did or not.

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There was a lego Turtle in Georgies room in 1. Bill drops it though.

 

[JDSN]

I liked it for what it was but it sucked that for so much padding they failed to include that bit were PW was on the run and some of the losers were chasing it while others killed it's spawn.

 

[Aphexian]

Saw it yesterday and enjoyed it. Not as much as the first one but still did so overall. My biggest qualm is the with overusage of CGI sequences. I felt the first one struck a perfect balance but this one just went overboard (esp. the restaurant scene). Nothing beats anticipation of a scare and if The Thing has proven anything it is that CGI's smooth motion and lack of grittiest sense of weight does more harm than good.

The casting was top notch and so was the final form of Pennywise. Not having read the book there are still questions that linger on for me:

1. Was it hubris that prevented Pennywise from killing the protagonists given he had myriad opportunities to do so?

2. I thought his OG form was akin to a bird but the way the deadlights interact- they are part of him but also exist outside of him.... so what exactly is his true form? Is it the light or the body or are they a combine form tethered together (given he does die when his heart, taken from his body, is demolished).

3. Why is the entire path of descent for the creature when it first landed looked like a toothy, spiny vagina pulsating and contracting? Given the impact site, it looks like the surrounding structure actually grew upwards.

PS: TIL that Bill Skarsgard can use one his lazy eyes to do that off kilter stare which I have always found disturbing.

Click to shrink...

1. I believe so. It's been a while since I read the book but she's (It is female, not stated in the movie) been doing it for thousands of years and always gotten away with whatever she did.

2. The deadlights is her true form. The spider thing is just the closest thing that their brains can handle, otherwise they would have an aneurysm from seeing her true form. And the clown is the form it takes because it's the easiest to lure children with, and children are it's favorite because their fears are less complex and fear makes them taste better.

3. I believe in the book the entire town of Derry is more a apart of IT than in the movie. During the final battle in the book there's all sorts of shit going on in the town while they're fighting, like earthquakes and tornadoes and stuff. Not sure if there was plans to explore this more and just got cut because of time/relevance.

 

[Aphexian]

There was a lego Turtle in Georgies room in 1. Bill drops it though.

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There was also a turtle in the classroom during the school sequence

 

[thediamondage]

I watched the RLM review last night and for the most part I agreed with both opinions. However, they mention Pennywise's line once he is dying where he says, "you're all so grown up" and I recalled that scene and actually remembered feeling bad for Pennywise when I was in the theater. He just looked so old and helpless and his final line sounded as if he was almost proud of them or something.

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One of the best parts in the movie was when they enter that final boss fight room, Pennywise shows up after they do the ritual, some crazy ass blue lights float down from what appears to be a giant mouth or spaceship or something. THAT WAS NUTS, along with him sending Richie floating, the lights shooting through an open brain area, etc.

I was hoping beyond hope we'd stray from the books and TV version and it'd be revealed that It is an eldritch horror along the lines of Cthulu and it just gets insane with how our minds are unable to comprehend something that ancient, evil, and powerful.

Instead the movie dives hard into goofy "spider clown" territory and ends with a dull thud. The epilogue with the note from Stan was just awful. Really disappointing, but I guess they foreshadowed the whole thing with "I can't write good endings!"

 

[Aphexian]

I was hoping beyond hope we'd stray from the books and TV version and it'd be revealed that It is an eldritch horror along the lines of Cthulu and it just gets insane with how our minds are unable to comprehend something that ancient, evil, and powerful.

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...but that's exactly how it is in the book

 

[Deleted member 29857]

This movie was way too long. And the final boss fight was ass. The actors playing Richie and Eddie really saved this movie.

 

[NekoFever]

Was it hubris that prevented Pennywise from killing the protagonists given he had myriad opportunities to do so?

Click to shrink...

Partly - It's been doing this for thousands of years and, in the book at least, It's influence permeates Derry, which means nothing stands up to him. But also the Losers are unknowing (though they suspect that something is guiding them) agents of a counterpart to It/Pennywise. This and their particular qualities make a lot of It's power ineffective. That's why It uses Bowers after they manage to hurt It the first time, as Bowers is a purely physical threat who can kill them regardless.

 

[RedSonja]

One of the best parts in the movie was when they enter that final boss fight room, Pennywise shows up after they do the ritual, some crazy ass blue lights float down from what appears to be a giant mouth or spaceship or something. THAT WAS NUTS, along with him sending Richie floating, the lights shooting through an open brain area, etc.

I was hoping beyond hope we'd stray from the books and TV version and it'd be revealed that It is an eldritch horror along the lines of Cthulu and it just gets insane with how our minds are unable to comprehend something that ancient, evil, and powerful.

Instead the movie dives hard into goofy "spider clown" territory and ends with a dull thud. The epilogue with the note from Stan was just awful. Really disappointing, but I guess they foreshadowed the whole thing with "I can't write good endings!"

Click to shrink...

This! It was like an end of level baddy in a platform game. Make my monster grow (like Power Rangers)!

 

[Charcoal]

So I'm confused. I thought Pennywise made his first appearance in the ~1700's, but Mike said his lair had been underground for millions of years?

 

[Napoleonthechimp]

2. I thought his OG form was akin to a bird but the way the deadlights interact- they are part of him but also exist outside of him.... so what exactly is his true form? Is it the light or the body or are they a combine form tethered together (given he does die when his heart, taken from his body, is demolished).

Click to shrink...

An extradimensional roiling mass of psychic energy (which is why it is susceptible to mental attacks) that can convert that energy into physical manifestations on Earth. I imagine it's true form is incomprehensible which is why people go into that state when they look at it.

So I'm confused. I thought Pennywise made his first appearance in the ~1700's, but Mike said his lair had been underground for millions of years?

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It was waiting for people to settle as it seemingly has an understanding of future events. Presumably it went into hibernation until then.

 

[Deleted member 7051]

An extradimensional roiling mass of psychic energy (which is why it is susceptible to mental attacks) that can convert that energy into physical manifestations on Earth. I imagine it's true form is incomprehensible which is why people go into that state when they look at it.

Click to shrink...

Yet, curiously enough, It has to assume a physical form in order to eat and is bound to whatever shape it takes.

So if we assume it spends the vast majority of its existence as an eldritch horror and only needs to assume a physical form to eat once every 27 years then, ironically enough, It is most vulnerable during the only time when it is a threat to the people of Derry.

 

[Napoleonthechimp]

Yet, curiously enough, It has to assume a physical form in order to eat and is bound to whatever shape it takes.

So if we assume it spends the vast majority of its existence as an eldritch horror and only needs to assume a physical form to eat once every 27 years then, ironically enough, It is most vulnerable during the only time when it is a threat to the people of Derry.

Click to shrink...

I imagine it has to exist in a physical state to interact with physical matter. When it isn't physically present the psychic powers it uses to scare are not physically threatening.

And with regards to being most vulnerable: I think it knows this well which is why it hides as it does, in shadows, drains, etc. In a sense it is quite a pitiful creature which is ultimately its downfall when the losers call it out as such.

I mean it has hidden for millions of years underground preying on children (for the most part).

 

[Hey Please]

1. I believe so. It's been a while since I read the book but she's (It is female, not stated in the movie) been doing it for thousands of years and always gotten away with whatever she did.

2. The deadlights is her true form. The spider thing is just the closest thing that their brains can handle, otherwise they would have an aneurysm from seeing her true form. And the clown is the form it takes because it's the easiest to lure children with, and children are it's favorite because their fears are less complex and fear makes them taste better.

3. I believe in the book the entire town of Derry is more a apart of IT than in the movie. During the final battle in the book there's all sorts of shit going on in the town while they're fighting, like earthquakes and tornadoes and stuff. Not sure if there was plans to explore this more and just got cut because of time/relevance.

Click to shrink...

It blew my mind to learn that IT is capable of self propagation, essentially making it actual entity 'female'. Now I wonder if the cosmic entity that is perceived as the turtle has a gender as well.

Partly - It's been doing this for thousands of years and, in the book at least, It's influence permeates Derry, which means nothing stands up to him. But also the Losers are unknowing (though they suspect that something is guiding them) agents of a counterpart to It/Pennywise. This and their particular qualities make a lot of It's power ineffective. That's why It uses Bowers after they manage to hurt It the first time, as Bowers is a purely physical threat who can kill them regardless.

Click to shrink...

I think the lack of rhyme or reason as to when it can and cannot feed is part of its mythos. We have seen two instances where feeding did not strictly require 'fear' - once for Georgie and another for the little girl. In essence, "luring" children by breaking through their natural defenses is essentially abating that first layer fear of stranger danger.

An extradimensional roiling mass of psychic energy (which is why it is susceptible to mental attacks) that can convert that energy into physical manifestations on Earth. I imagine it's true form is incomprehensible which is why people go into that state when they look at it.

Click to shrink...

Apparently, I was reading a few Quora responses and it looks like the deadlights, whilst visible, actually exist in the void (dimension between layer of spacetime) and that its physical manifestation (and its psychological powers therein) reside in our plane of reality. So, presumably, when IT opens its/her physical manifestation's mouth, people are seeing through that dimensional rift and right into three light orb form (i.e. OG state) of the entity which has deleterious effects on the minds of the observers.

 

[Napoleonthechimp]

Apparently, I was reading a few Quora responses and it looks like the deadlights, whilst visible, actually exist in the void (dimension between layer of spacetime) and that its physical manifestation (and its psychological powers therein) reside in our plane of reality. So, presumably, when IT opens its/her physical manifestation's mouth, people are seeing through that dimensional rift and right into three light orb form (i.e. OG state) of the entity which has deleterious effects on the minds of the observers.

Click to shrink...

Yes, that's what I've heard too but it can be difficult to reconcile some of the movie with the greater Stephen King universe in which a thing like Pennywise can be explained (the macrouniverse being the place where Pennywise exists or came from, crashing through into our universe either entirely or in part via a physical avatar).

 

[Hey Please]

Yes, that's what I've heard too but it can be difficult to reconcile some of the movie with the greater Stephen King universe in which a thing like Pennywise can be explained (the macrouniverse being the place where Pennywise exists or came from, crashing through into our universe either entirely or in part via a physical avatar).

Click to shrink...

I never read the book but I would think imagining and visualizing some of these concepts in 3D space not only as solid objects but also transient ones with visual effects surrounding them, can be tricky at best to pull off. Movies are the visual interpretation of a few select people as opposed the personal imaginations of several millions of readers.

AFAIK, the book itself makes certain aspects of the "unimaginable" or "inconceivable" because they exist outside the realm of our universe, as part of the world building.

One cannot imagine what one is unfamiliar with. Of course it did not stop people from trying and in the end, the movie one rendition of ideas whittled down to the point where it can be rendered on screen and made to be digestible for people.

Recently, I learned that IT kills because of its moniker, 'eater of worlds' and not because it requires sustenance. It is a counterpoint to the force of creation, stability and good. So then I wonder why does it hibernate for 27 years like clockwork? Could it be because it needs physical manifestation in our plane of reality needs to abide by some esoteric law (given it does have conform to physical laws of our reality to an extent) and that IT actually continues its rampage elsewhere (on another planet) during this time?

 

[Rhomega]

Got back, and I liked it. It's not as good as the first, and there's a couple of reasons. One is that as they're gathering up the artifacts, it feels repetitive. Go to a place, set up Pennywise while reminiscing as a child. Run away, give a calm moment to think the threat is over, then jump scare. I will admit the statue got me. How is Pennywise attacking them anyway? Shouldn't he be asleep or whatever after they beat him up in the sewer?

The other thing is that this feels like a video game plot. Gather the Plot Coupons, then go to the Very Definitely Final Dungeon, bring the Plot Coupons together in a ritual to summon the Final Boss, who is a Final Exam Boss. Oh, and he's a Load Bearing Boss while we're at it. Were the artifacts even in the original book/mini-series?

 

[Toth]

Got back, and I liked it. It's not as good as the first, and there's a couple of reasons. One is that as they're gathering up the artifacts, it feels repetitive. Go to a place, set up Pennywise while reminiscing as a child. Run away, give a calm moment to think the threat is over, then jump scare. I will admit the statue got me. How is Pennywise attacking them anyway? Shouldn't he be asleep or whatever after they beat him up in the sewer?

The other thing is that this feels like a video game plot. Gather the Plot Coupons, then go to the Very Definitely Final Dungeon, bring the Plot Coupons together in a ritual to summon the Final Boss, who is a Final Exam Boss. Oh, and he's a Load Bearing Boss while we're at it. Were the artifacts even in the original book/mini-series?

Click to shrink...

It's similar to the book. In the book, Mike has the Losers separate, despite the risk, to remember their past and how they defeated IT in the first place. The movie just added an extra dimension to it in the form of tokens. The Ritual itself is very different in the movie though.

Edit: the change was necessary because the book keeps you dark how Pennywise was defeated in the first place and it weaves the two time periods Ritual of Chüd together. That is not possible with the way these adaptations have been though.

 

[maigret]

The 1990 miniseries is airing on Syfy right now and it's...really competently made compared to these recent 2 movies. I'd never seen it before.

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Much like these new movie adaptations, the childhood section is the stronger part of the miniseries. Although it's no contest that the adult actors in the new version are streets ahead of the TV actors they got for the miniseries.

 

[Illenium]

Saw it two days ago. Unfortunately, being in NYC there are assholes that just wants to talk & use their phones throughout the entire movie.. which then makes you question as to why they're at the movie to begin with ..

Anyway, the asshole aside, the movie was way too lengthy for me. Really the only other movie that I tolerated sitting in a chair for, granted it's a recliner, was Infinity War. I never read the book so unfortunately I can't compare and maybe that's why the movie was nearly 3 hours long.

Some of the jump scares were pretty well done and the transition scenes going from back when they were kids til adults were pretty cool but can't say I will sit through it again.

 

[Ultimadrago]

Put me in the "Like, but not Love" camp. I do think the quality of the two films are much more similar than some are giving credit to. However, I did find the childhood era a bit more compelling in the end. I found their scripts fit the play better and the personal trials of each were integrated better than the totem/sacrifices one here. I will say IT: Chapter 2 had some good scares that kept up the action, but I didn't find it as unsettling a film overall which is odd. II find it interesting that the stakes are raised compared to the first chapter, but it doesn't feel much like it when watching at all.

 

[Officer Big Mac]

I saw it last night and thought it was total crap. It wasnt scary and the pacing was atrocious. It was not an enjoyable experience at all.

Nobody was ever in any real danger. Pennywise felt more like a nuisance than a menacing threat when facing the main cast members.

CGI spider creature ending was...bad. it was all very bad.

 

[Meelow]

Just saw it, it was ok but it could of been better.

Also

Spoiler: Ending Spoiler

I don't remember any hints of Richie being gay and in love with Eddie from the first movie, like where did this come from?

 

[darz1]

Irs probably already been answered but whats the turtle everyone keeps talking about?

 

[Deleted member 15428]

Irs probably already been answered but whats the turtle everyone keeps talking about?

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https://stephenking.fandom.com/wiki/Maturin

 

[Aprikurt]

Got back, and I liked it. It's not as good as the first, and there's a couple of reasons. One is that as they're gathering up the artifacts, it feels repetitive. Go to a place, set up Pennywise while reminiscing as a child. Run away, give a calm moment to think the threat is over, then jump scare. I will admit the statue got me. How is Pennywise attacking them anyway? Shouldn't he be asleep or whatever after they beat him up in the sewer?

The other thing is that this feels like a video game plot. Gather the Plot Coupons, then go to the Very Definitely Final Dungeon, bring the Plot Coupons together in a ritual to summon the Final Boss, who is a Final Exam Boss. Oh, and he's a Load Bearing Boss while we're at it. Were the artifacts even in the original book/mini-series?

Click to shrink...

I thought the part about being like a video game almost exactly. You almost felt the quest "Gather the 6 totems" popping up.

Which, hey, apparently they didn't even have to do.

 

[TAJ]

I had one of the people I saw this with ask me if none of the behind-the-camera people from Chapter 1 came back to work on this, and I completely understood why they would ask that.

 

[kiguel182]

Kinda elated but this talk of the dark tower is making me wonder if you need to read more of Kings stuff to understand the dark tower or it it's not necessary.

 

[SugarNoodles]

Hoooooly shit this movie was upsettingly bad.

I went to see it with 5 friends and all we could do afterwards was talk about what a disaster it was.

One of the most tonally dissonant films I've ever seen.

Also clearly every decision was made by a room full of straight white men. It was off to a bad start when the opening scene was about a gay guy getting murdered but being sassy about it because you know how us gays are. Then the writer could only bring themselves to make Richie gay through implications, and then there's the whole Native American magic nonsense. Like, what year is this?

 

[maigret]

Hoooooly shit this movie was upsettingly bad.

I went to see it with 5 friends and all we could do afterwards was talk about what a disaster it was.

One of the most tonally dissonant films I've ever seen.

Also clearly every decision was made by a room full of straight white men. It was off to a bad start when the opening scene was about a gay guy getting murdered but being sassy about it because you know how us gays are. Then the writer could only bring themselves to make Richie gay through implications, and then there's the whole Native American magic nonsense. Like, what year is this?

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I just started reading the book and I think that plot with the murder of Adrian Mellon plays a lot better in the book. The movie really fumbled the whole hate crime aspect of the murder, it just felt like random abject cruelty with no deeper commentary. In the book it's made clear that the whole town of Derry is implicated in his murder, because prejudice has been normalized and accepted, notwithstanding the presence of the literal monster.