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rras1994

Member
Nov 4, 2017
5,743
I would argue that smaller developers have dealt with these issues a whole lot better than AAA developers because there's far less pressure (and actually more pressure from minority groups interested in their games) to produce gaming experiences that aren't solely about player empowerment and affirmation.

It dovetails well into why games like Cyberpunk remove things like the humanity system that might remove some of the "fun" from the gaming experience by putting up inconveniences.
The humanity system was absolutely terrible idea that highlights the issue around the game industry which is very similar to how it portrays sex - maturity only seems to count if it's "edgy" or "dark", and it tends to be throwing marginalised communities under the bus. I appreciate Indies that are made by marginalised communities as it allows a point of view you would generally not get otherwise but we still really need to remember that even in Indie the vast amount of people making the games are still white cis men because they get given more opportunities and they are still making them mostly for cis white men
 

Mesoian

▲ Legend ▲
Member
Oct 28, 2017
26,524
Edit: NM, this thread is moving kind of fast and some of the things people are saying seem pretty insane without starting from the top.
 
Oct 28, 2017
4,970
The humanity system was absolutely terrible idea that highlights the issue around the game industry which is very similar to how it portrays sex - maturity only seems to count if it's "edgy" or "dark", and it tends to be throwing marginalised communities under the bus. I appreciate Indies that are made by marginalised communities as it allows a point of view you would generally not get otherwise but we still really need to remember that even in Indie the vast amount of people making the games are still white cis men because they get given more opportunities and they are still making them mostly for cis white men

If the argument against Cyberpunk's humanity system is that it is ableist, that is irrelevant to my point. CDPR didn't not include it because it was ableist, they didn't include it because it would inconvenience the player in their power fantasy.

That's the major problems facing video games. Having less cis white men wouldn't make bad romance and sexuality in video games go away because it is inherently a problem in how we consume and what we expect from video games.
 

Deleted member 17184

User-requested account closure
Banned
Oct 27, 2017
5,240
I do think that writers have a lot of responsibility, too. Mostly white males, of course, but I've also seen disappointing approaches from women and non-binary people across all sexualities. Things like "haha, they said boobs/butt/dick" or the eggplant emoji... And as much as this could only be a social media behavior, it often reflects on their writing.

Sex and romance can be fun and casual, sure, but there's often so much more that could be done. Characters who are bi but maybe like one gender more than the other, demis and aces being more common, and more representation for trans and non-binary people. The direct approach which is basically "let's fuck" as a player choice is also weird. Not everyone likes that approach.
 

Jonathan Lanza

"I've made a Gigantic mistake"
Member
Feb 8, 2019
6,818
i'm not going to pretend the idea that perverted games existing means an entire genre is polluted, that is a thought process i cannot understand or respect really and my response was commensurate with what i believe to be the respect it deserves which is not much. it's honestly a childish/naive way of interpreting and consuming any kind of media let alone video games

I mean, yes, lets condemn all visual novels because 1 series that historically hinged on horror and insanity made a particularly vile scenario.

What are you even talking about? Is Umineko the one game you've played? That's like saying "All video games are sexist trash because Akiba Strip exists".
Nobody
singled out
any
genre

Nobody said "VISUALS NOVELS ARE POISONED! THEY'RE POLLUTED!"
Nobodt said "FUCK VISUAL NOVELS! THEY'RE ALL BAD!"

Nobody singled out any particular genre until Blue Heaven came in with
"Well if you just STOPPED playing that brain AAA food garbage you'd be able to appreciate visual novels"

My point was that ALL of the writing issues that you see in AAA games
in SRPG's
in RPG's
in Action Games
in Puzzle Games
in Racing Games
in ALL games are also present in Visual Novels. That's why I said, it's not a good benchmark. The thread is literally about how sex and romance feels juvenile within the gaming community, that includes EVERYTHING. Visual novels are not some special exception, They're games, they are subject to all the same writing critiques found in other games of all genres.

Stop being defensive, nobody is attacking visual novels. Read the thread.
 

Hailinel

Shamed a mod for a tag
Member
Oct 27, 2017
35,527
At this point for the sake of the community, it's probably for the best to just remove sex scenes from games altogether. If gamers want to watch 3D models bump and grind that badly, just turn on some hentai or something.
Cleansing games of sexual content doesn't solve the problem. It creates a different one.
 

Mesoian

▲ Legend ▲
Member
Oct 28, 2017
26,524
there are good treatments of intimate and/or sexual relationships in non-eroge visual novels but much of the general gaming populace will never touch the stuff because of the prevailing "anime" boogeyman. too bad for them.

To be fair (to be faaaaaaaaaaaaair),

That anime boogieman is a constant landmine that's literally everywhere and constantly undermines otherwise great stories. I can't count on fingers and toes how many shows, books and movies I've dropped due to the wanton sexualization or molestation of minors.

The fact that we have to preface otherwise great stories with the inevitable "...BUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUT" regarding one of many overactive sexual tropes, particularly when it comes to sexual violence is something that's always going to hinder the "you just have to go out and find the good stuff on your own" argument. I remember people praying beyond praying that 13 Sentinels wouldn't have that stuff in it and while it does manage to dodge the normal George Kamitani faire, there's still a bunch of nude children's portraits every time you start up a mech.
 

rras1994

Member
Nov 4, 2017
5,743
I do think that writers have a lot of responsibility, too. Mostly white males, of course, but I've also seen disappointing approaches from women and non-binary people across all sexualities. Things like "haha, they said boobs/butt/dick" or the eggplant emoji... And as much as this could only be a social media behavior, it often reflects on their writing.

Sex and romance can be fun and casual, sure, but there's often so much more that could be done. Characters who are bi but maybe like one gender more than the other, demis and aces being more common, and more representation for trans and non-binary people. The direct approach which is basically "let's fuck" as a player choice is also weird. Not everyone likes that approach.
Defo agree with this. Only thing I would say is I think there is room for bauwdy humour that isn't juvenile if that makes sense? Having a laugh about sex happens in relationships and while I think it can be difficult to write, I think should still be there? Like humans are very diverse and how they express their sexuality can be very light hearted and constantly finding the funny side to being very serious about it. The problem with jokes about sexuallity is they can often end up either targetting a particular group or shaming the act in general. It's a balance to get it right
 

Deleted member 17184

User-requested account closure
Banned
Oct 27, 2017
5,240
Defo agree with this. Only thing I would say is I think there is room for bauwdy humour that isn't juvenile if that makes sense? Having a laugh about sex happens in relationships and while I think it can be difficult to write, I think should still be there? Like humans are very diverse and how they express their sexuality can be very light hearted and constantly finding the funny side to being very serious about it. The problem with jokes about sexuallity is they can often end up either targetting a particular group or shaming the act in general. It's a balance to get it right
For sure. I think it can definitely be there, but not necessarily the main focus (unless that's a theme in the game).
 
May 19, 2020
4,828
To be fair (to be faaaaaaaaaaaaair),

That anime boogieman is a constant landmine that's literally everywhere and constantly undermines otherwise great stories. I can't count on fingers and toes how many shows, books and movies I've dropped due to the wanton sexualization or molestation of minors.

The fact that we have to preface otherwise great stories with the inevitable "...BUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUT" regarding one of many overactive sexual tropes, particularly when it comes to sexual violence is something that's always going to hinder the "you just have to go out and find the good stuff on your own" argument. I remember people praying beyond praying that 13 Sentinels wouldn't have that stuff in it and while it does manage to dodge the normal George Kamitani faire, there's still a bunch of nude children's portraits every time you start up a mech.
if i had a nickel for everytime i saw "i would play this game but it's anime (poster disclaimer: may not even be actually anime, may just be general eastern-style art) so it must be awful" here on ERA i would have enough to buy a lexus. so it becomes this culture consumption cycle where you are inevitably bored of what you constantly and safely consume because you are so worried about some external factor that may or not be real about stuff that is outside your consumption cycle.

there are exploitive japanese games. there are exploitive western games. there is gross shit where minors are actually sexualized. intelligent adults can put together that an explotitive piece or pattern of media is not some monolith for a genre or artform.
 

Mesoian

▲ Legend ▲
Member
Oct 28, 2017
26,524
if i had a nickel for everytime i saw "i would play this game but it's anime (poster disclaimer: may not even be actually anime, may just be general eastern-style art) so it must be awful" here on ERA i would have enough to buy a lexus. so it becomes this culture consumption cycle where you are inevitably bored of what you constantly and safely consume because you are so worried about some external factor that may or not be real about stuff that is outside your consumption cycle.
I mean, I can't blame anyone when "That thing" is usually the complete undermining of the material's characters for some quick shock value or titillation. The culture consumption cycle exists because there's so much problematic material on the forefront of their respective formats that you kind of have to walk on eggshells at most times. It does boil down to what you're willing to deal with, but let's not pretend that these tropes don't exist and aren't very prevalent if you suddenly move away from AAA.
 
Oct 26, 2017
17,382
I mean, there are a ton of kids who play games, and that's not even counting the man-children. Gaming is a weird place to come to for mature discussions on sex.
 

NoKisum

Member
Nov 11, 2017
4,913
DMV Area, USA
Cleansing games of sexual content doesn't solve the problem. It creates a different one.
What gratuitous sex scene enhances the playability of a video game? Someone point me out a level in a game that made you go, "Man, I was so-so through this game so far, but when Side Character B popped them titties out? All the game mechanics suddenly started to click. Game of the Year!"
 

Hey Please

Avenger
Oct 31, 2017
22,824
Not America
My 2 cents:

The best romances comprising of substance that I have witnessed have been in TV shows. Each episode allows for character growth of individuals as well as evolution of interpersonal relationships. Overtime, writers push progression that feels much more natural. Movies, have been known to do a decent job as well but the long of short of it is that in both examples, the observer is a passive recipient.

In games, between aspects like moment to moment gameplay, core gameplay motivations and player agency, romance from ground up is truly a hard thing to do. It is why in Witcher titles (I have yet to play them myself) as far as I have seen, the devs were able sidestep this issue because of pre-existing relationship status between Geralt, Tess and Yennefer. The player is playing out the role of a person who has a bond with these two other characters from the books.

To the end this bit from the OP is something I have thought of for a long, long time:

One aspect that's always bothered me when it comes to fandom is the discussion of romantic/sex partners in games like Bioware games, Bethesda games etc. As the avatar probably gives away, I'm a bi woman, but I am not a fan of the "All Bi" thing some games do nor do I like it when non-bi people push for that or declare it's the only "correct" way of doing sex and romance in games. For me, so many games and people who argue for this treat bisexuality as nothing more as an easy game mechanic, a convenience for their fantasies to be allowed to have a sex with anyone regardless of those characters feelings, preferences, history etc. That doesn't feel like good representation to me, but fetishization of us. We Bi people are more then that. We won't bang you just because you ask or want us to and games really should treat bisexuality more seriously, it ignores that just because many bi people are attracted to men and women, doesn't mean we want to date men or women or NB people or even attracted to men at all but are to women and NB people. Or you know, a bi people may simply not be interested in you.

Honestly, I do believe that more credit is being given here than what is deserved. Intent-wise I do not even think Bioware/BetaShed titles even think of 'bi-sexuality' when making partners romanceable even if effect-wise it seems that way.

To me, it always stood out as these devs simply wanting to the players' avatar be attractive to "MOST" romanceable partners. The only thing of consequence are the choices the player makes through his/her/their avatar and not about creating an organic world where the most important/romanceable NPCs truly have sexual characteristics of their own. This is to ensure that the player does not feel like they are being roadblocked for making a choice at character select screen. Furthermore, it also would not surprise me if this is done to avoid any potential claims of bigotry (akin to how Ubisoft titles always being by proclaiming that their games are created by "a diverse group of people" as a buffer against criticism for their exploitation of real world struggles in the most hamfisted ways to sell copies).

Good romance requires controlled pacing and enough content that allows for believable character and relationship growth. Doing that from ground up in RPG driven by dialog choices (that also has do many other things) will generally lead to anything but real romance.

I have, unequivocally, come to despise the romance in Mass Effect over the years. It reminds me of strip poker. I can only wonder whether Bioware can craft systems of forging meaningful relationship beyond, speaking enough times w/the desired NPC, choosing the "correct" dialog responses and doing their loyalty mission. It would be a nice change if the NPCs were imbued with believable characteristics like sexual orientation that did not dissipate after laying eyes on Player's Avatar.
 

Deleted member 1849

User requested account closure
Banned
Oct 25, 2017
6,986
I mean, there are a ton of kids who play games, and that's not even counting the man-children. Gaming is a weird place to come to for mature discussions on sex.
There are a bunch of kids watching movies, that doesn't seem to stop them from making more mature movies.

No reason why gaming can't expand to include both. Not everything needs to be for the manchildren.
 
May 19, 2020
4,828
I mean, I can't blame anyone when "That thing" is usually the complete undermining of the material's characters for some quick shock value or titillation. The culture consumption cycle exists because there's so much problematic material on the forefront of their respective formats that you kind of have to walk on eggshells at most times. It does boil down to what you're willing to deal with, but let's not pretend that these tropes don't exist and aren't very prevalent if you suddenly move away from AAA.
the problems don't magically disappear but i think you're basically opening yourself up to a breadth of stories that are owned by the actual minority voices when compared to AAA which is still actually majority of white dudes controlling things lol (in the west at least)
 
Oct 26, 2017
17,382
There are a bunch of kids watching movies, that doesn't seem to stop them from making more mature movies.

No reason why gaming can't expand to include both. Not everything needs to be for the manchildren.
Yeah but we're talking about blockbusters like Star Wars here and their gaming equivalents, not Moonlight. That doesn't mean they should avoid discussions on the matter, but it does explain why there aren't many mature ones.
 

FrostweaveBandage

Unshakable Resolve
Member
Sep 27, 2019
6,671
i'd rather not have it in games, most of the time

it doesn't offend me, sex is fine in a lot of books and films (not all), sex is a part of life etc etc but it's usually dumb in video games. there are exceptions, of course. but in terms of mainstream, general discourse games it's not great

the discussion usually isn't good either so that's what we're working with, bad content and bad conversations

Well, I think that's because it's not handled well. It's mostly because it is still in its infancy, relatively speaking.

I've always found it interesting to see how The Witcher series progressed in its handling of Geralt's sexcapades. Felt like as sex became a more prominent topic in games and the community that they had to tone it back from the silly "card collecting" in the original to Geralt choosing a mate in the TW3 to tastefully make love to. I think that's a product of the industry maturing somewhat in that area, but its audience has mostly not gotten there yet.
 

Mesoian

▲ Legend ▲
Member
Oct 28, 2017
26,524
the problems don't magically disappear but i think you're basically opening yourself up to a breadth of stories that are owned by the actual minority voices when compared to AAA which is still actually majority of white dudes controlling things lol (in the west at least)

While that may be true, especially the part about minority voices, that doesn't mean that a lot of those storytellers don't also need to shape up, particularly with how sex and relationships revolving around sex are talked about. In the AAA space, sexual violence is generally avoided because the corporate nature of game creation is scared to death to truly talk about it in a mature, reasonable way. But in most VN's I've played, rape, grooming, underaged mollestation, those kinds of things are used as common shock tropes, usually with very little meaning of consequence beyond "BAD END".

While a few bad actors certainly doesn't make smaller genres more focused on narratives invalidated, it doesn't mean we should ignore when someone is pushing tired stereotypes because it's the easiest way to get a rise out of or the audience. That shit's goshe.
 

Hailinel

Shamed a mod for a tag
Member
Oct 27, 2017
35,527
What gratuitous sex scene enhances the playability of a video game? Someone point me out a level in a game that made you go, "Man, I was so-so through this game so far, but when Side Character B popped them titties out? All the game mechanics suddenly started to click. Game of the Year!"
Just because they're gratuitous in some games doesn't mean that they're pointless in all.
 
May 19, 2020
4,828
While that may be true, especially the part about minority voices, that doesn't mean that a lot of those storytellers don't also need to shape up, particularly with how sex and relationships revolving around sex are talked about. In the AAA space, sexual violence is generally avoided because the corporate nature of game creation is scared to death to truly talk about it in a mature, reasonable way. But in most VN's I've played, rape, grooming, underaged mollestation, those kinds of things are used as common shock tropes, usually with very little meaning of consequence beyond "BAD END".
the nice thing about VNs is there's usually a lot of genre tagging by enthusiasts made about the contents of the game so you can basically know what you're getting into and if you have something that you take issue with, the obvious one being sexual exploitation of minors, you can usually look into it and avoid as necessary. as stated earlier a large portion of both consumers and makers of VNs include people of color and the LGBT so they likely share in the conversation surrounding those tropes.

i think there's still a fair amount of generalization and unhelpful monolithic dialogue surrounding visual novels as a genre and unfortunately that will likely not change anytime soon
 

Ferrs

Avenger
Oct 26, 2017
18,829
This is not about a genre, is about the whole gaming catalogue.

There's good VNs with good sexual relationships? Cool, but this isn't about this. I shouldn't have to be forced to play a genre I don't like because the majority of devs don't know how to write proper relationships.
 

Hailinel

Shamed a mod for a tag
Member
Oct 27, 2017
35,527
That's why I'm asking, point me to the ones where the sex scenes help the game's overall mechanics, and would severely harm it if taken away.
It's not purely about mechanics. It's about presentation and the nature of romance and sexuality in narrative. It's about the way characters can see and act around and toward each other, and how they feel about one another.

Sexual content in games doesn't have to be in the form of crass minigames or as a reward because you said the right thing to the Bioware alien enough times.
 

arcadepc

Banned
Dec 28, 2019
1,925
What gratuitous sex scene enhances the playability of a video game? Someone point me out a level in a game that made you go, "Man, I was so-so through this game so far, but when Side Character B popped them titties out? All the game mechanics suddenly started to click. Game of the Year!"

Have to head to Dlsite for that one
 

daegan

#REFANTAZIO SWEEP
Member
Oct 27, 2017
2,899
I mean, there are a ton of kids who play games, and that's not even counting the man-children. Gaming is a weird place to come to for mature discussions on sex.

this is such a weird take. Sesame Street exists so should tv not ever try to deal with sex in a mature way?
It's not purely about mechanics. It's about presentation and the nature of romance and sexuality in narrative. It's about the way characters can see and act around and toward each other, and how they feel about one another.

Sexual content in games doesn't have to be in the form of crass minigames or as a reward because you said the right thing to the Bioware alien enough times.
It doesn't, but ultimately I also don't think we need to demonize the BioWare house style. I know a lot of marginalized folk who play those games for that reason; a lot of them are plenty aware of the existence of stuff more "mature" off the beaten path, but they just want to see their OC bang the hot character and that's fine too. I feel like this is a good and important conversation to have but it doesn't need to be exclusionary.
 

Hailinel

Shamed a mod for a tag
Member
Oct 27, 2017
35,527
It doesn't, but ultimately I also don't think we need to demonize the BioWare house style. I know a lot of marginalized folk who play those games for that reason; a lot of them are plenty aware of the existence of stuff more "mature" off the beaten path, but they just want to see their OC bang the hot character and that's fine too. I feel like this is a good and important conversation to have but it doesn't need to be exclusionary.
I'm sorry if it came across that way. The point I was trying to make is that sexuality can be represented well and positively in a variety of ways in games. You don't need to look at whatever the most popular games do and assume that's what everything should be judged by.

A really terrible example is the sex minigames in the older God of War titles. It's nothing but mashing a button to get lewd noises from [insert hot female character here]. I've played straight-up porn games with more thought and tact than that.
 

daegan

#REFANTAZIO SWEEP
Member
Oct 27, 2017
2,899
I'm sorry if it came across that way. The point I was trying to make is that sexuality can be represented well and positively in a variety of ways in games. You don't need to look at whatever the most popular games do and assume that's what everything should be judged by.

A really terrible example is the sex minigames in the older God of War titles. It's nothing but mashing a button to get lewd noises from [insert hot female character here]. I've played straight-up porn games with more thought and tact than that.
You're good! And yes, God of War is exactly what I imagined you were getting at at the first part there. It blew my mind in the 360 era working at GameStop when we would let God of War stay in the wall but would have to pull random small print anime games from display because of a character suggestively eating a banana or ice cream on the box.
 

Xiaomi

Member
Oct 25, 2017
7,237
The problem is that as of right now games still treat sex and sexual romance as something to attain that equals success or a reward for being powerful, or conversely, as a threat from a villain, which is an inherently childish thing.

There's been a whole two centuries or so of advancements in the ideas of sex in literary writing (George Bataille, Allen Ginsberg, Walt Whitman, the Brontes, etc.) that games writers are still catching up on because they're stuck in very old-fashioned approaches towards sex and romance, so it's no surprise the audience feels the same.
 
Oct 26, 2017
17,382
this is such a weird take. Sesame Street exists so should tv not ever try to deal with sex in a mature way?
Well what I meant is that sex/romance is an incredibly complex topic that would deserve special attention. I figured OP was referring to the big franchises like Star Wars, not smaller projects. A blockbuster game that will be enjoyed by many different age groups and other demographics would be smart to shy from a difficult subject like that. Though props to Wolfenstein: The New Order for managing it.
 

Ego

Banned
Dec 6, 2020
128
A really terrible example is the sex minigames in the older God of War titles. It's nothing but mashing a button to get lewd noises from [insert hot female character here]. I've played straight-up porn games with more thought and tact than that.

What GoW did was essantially porn, which is fine. It suits the narrative just perfectly.
I remember playing ICO approximately at the same time and was struck by the sense of intamicy and relationship I felt back then.

Both games did their own thing and did it well.