• Ever wanted an RSS feed of all your favorite gaming news sites? Go check out our new Gaming Headlines feed! Read more about it here.
  • We have made minor adjustments to how the search bar works on ResetEra. You can read about the changes here.

kappa_krey

Banned
Jan 24, 2018
630
1. I wasn't suggesting that a recognisable brand means you don't have to market the game, I'm suggesting that for every $1 you spend marketing a recognisable brand, you get a larger return in consumer interest, than a new IP (on average).

Fair point, and I agree with that. But by that notion, why would you suggest a company that already has known IP, choose to ignore those IP and instead focus on new ones, when in your own words that's going to eat away more money from them?

2. I'm not assuming that there's zero market for those games, but I am suggesting that for the most part, Sega's back log of IP have very little brand recognition. Virtua Fighter, Daytona, Panzer Dragoon might mean something to the everyday consumer, but it doesn't do the mass market.

This is contradictory; if they are known in some way to an everyday consumer, then that means they have brand recognition. How much or how little isn't up to you or I, only Sega, and just comes down to what would be sufficient for whatever budget there is allocated to them. And not to argue semantics here, but when I hear the phrase "everyday consumer", I think of the mass market. I'd say more "to the core gamer" personally speaking, but core gamers are also mass market consumers. They aren't mutually exclusive.

3. Games are designed to be played by people and if you want players to enjoy your game it's simply best practice to put the experience in front of players and see if they like it, then iterate upon those designs. Designing games in this way is the very reason many of the industries best games, like Breath of the Wild, The Last of Us, Uncharted, Horizon, Mario Oddssey, League of Legends, and Halo 5 exist as they do.

I think this is just you projecting your own opinion here, in terms of saying what's "best" or isn't, but that's not really what I'm in disagreement with. My contention's with the idea that you're equating these game's quality being driven by market focus testing, committee design panels or the such. I'm sure these companies consulted a few outside opinions and their suits had their own words on what to include or take out, but I can guarantee you they weren't the main voices in shaping those games, not even close.

These games you listed are games that you probably feel are among the best personally speaking. I likely don't see them that way, and could spend hours going into why if I really wanted, but again the point is you're drawing a parallel as if extensive market research focus-testing and design-by-committee is vital to a game's success or even sales. While I agree that they can play a factor, relying on it too much, like any good tool, can hurt the end result. It's all about moderation.

4. Yakuza hasn't significantly innovated its series in 10 years. I don't mean that in a bad way, it's a great series, but it doesn't demonstrate Sega's ability to produce new and exciting gameplay experiences. Their experimental gameplay series, Sonic the Hedgehog, has consistently failed. Your claimed mismanagement of the Sonic series, Sega's flagship IP, does very little to induce any confidence that Sega could easily revive and modernize a variety of older IPs.

You're mistaking innovation as being an inherent trait of quality, when just above you listed games that you said are good because they iterated on concepts, not necessarily innovated. You don't need innovation to have quality, and what's more defining what's "innovative" is usually in the eye of the beholder. For someone not into a given franchise, some random feature may not seem all that new, but for fans of that property, it can be seen as very innovative. And I think, for any pre-existing IP, appeasing the core fans takes precedent over chasing new heads if that runs the risk of completely alienating the existing fanbase (not necessarily a game, but you can see this effect in plain view with Microsoft's entire handling of the XBO early on in the generation).

And while on the subject of Sonic, yeah I think we can both agree that part of the reason it's been so inconsistent is b/c Sonic Team has not found a formula to stick to and iterate upon, altho they have plenty of good ones to choose from if they slowed a bit to look at the back catalog. I'd also say the series being so experimental is part of the problem: by comparison I wouldn't say the Mario games are actually that innovative, but the difference is that EAD iterates on a foundation adjusting a few things here and there, and making sure the consistency stays up as a result. When you're working with known quantities you can depend on predictable results, but Sonic Team throws the baby out with the bathwater almost every other game.

I also disagree with your idea that Sega couldn't "easily" (and let's be honest, no company can "easily" do this; it takes a lot of effort and balance) revive or modernize their older IP, because first of all you have to decide what criteria you're using to consider something "modernized". What does that even mean? Does that mean it has to be open-world? Or be multiplayer-focused? Or have 100s of hours of content? Or have microtransactions or lootboxes? Because truth be told, those are poor measures to go by when you have new IP today that don't do any combination of those things, but are in themselves successful. If you mean in terms of "QOL" features to be "easier" for gamers to beat them, wouldn't that be a subjective point? Not every game is going to accommodate for every skill level, or every player habit, and some players should stop thinking that every game has to cede to their every want and desire or it'll be a financial failure. If the game achieves a consistent vision and is good, and is marketed properly, it has a very good chance of finding an audience. It really is that simple :/

5. In this context we're talking about reviving old IPs with the intent to leverage them to promote hardware. Yes, they do need to be relatively successful. No one mentioned anything about 10 million units, but if Sega want to make a meaningful play in the hardware market, they need their games to find success compatible to their competitors. Otherwise, why bother? Why not just make middle weight software for existing hardware.

No one mentioned that, yes, but you're definitely alluding to that type of idea, and I've seen others mention similar things (just around in general). Defining success in the basic sense is simple: it has to recoup its development and marketing budget, and garner attention for the dev/publisher and (if they're a platform holder) platform, and churn at least a bit of a profit in the long run. But when people usually start talking about this, they never consider that budgetary requirements vary drastically from game to game, publisher to publisher etc.

This also seems to be ignoring that only a slice of given games from any of the platform holders actually do significantly big numbers. For every mainline Mario, Zelda, Uncharted or Halo, you have a Metroid, DriveClub, 1886 or Quantum Break that does (compared relatively) "okay" or even mediocre numbers. GT Sport is part of one of Sony's biggest IP yet came out stumbling and is struggling to find a foothold, so at time you can't even count on certain games being a sure bet.

For as inconsistent as they have been in quality, the Sonic Team Sonic games usually put up pretty respectable numbers, and the Yakuza games have only been growing in sales as they are finally being given some attention in the West. They may not do 10+ million numbers but there's no guarantee that current IP from any of the Big 3 will continue to do 10+ million numbers, either....

...which, if they have the proper budgets, would be okay, because they likely wouldn't need to sell that high to be financially viable. Which is what I'm getting at with your notion of "success": even besides the budget/marketing aspect, simply having a diverse roster of games that at least find a niche for their platform, in a way also helps diversify the platform's library and give it a
better selling angle versus contemporaries.

Sony has DREAMS coming out (hopefully) soon; I know some people want to think it'll do gangbusters but I honestly see it only being modestly successful, 5 million LTD or less, especially if it comes out very late in the year or next year. And this is besides the point it's one of my most anticipated PS4 games, but the thing is....that'd be okay. It doesn't need big numbers. Hell, it could barely do 1 million and probably still recoup dev costs for Sony and Japan Studio, and also have the added benefit of strengthening the PS4's brand image among core users and casuals considering a purchase.

This is not at all what any of their financial reports describe, to be honest. They have an increasing dependence on Pachinko machines, driving their net income moving forward towards 2020. They're definitely at least equal parts of the business.

They're also expanding their arcade division efforts too, however. Just because they are doing one doesn't mean they aren't doing the other. And they've recently announced console ports for Border Break, releasing a new Virtual On, VC4 etc. You can't simply ignore all of that stuff (even if it's not to your gaming tastes) and act as though they're only taking the pachinko sector seriously.
 
Last edited:

bane833

Banned
Nov 3, 2017
4,530
I´d prefer them to stay third party but increase their output drastically. Man all these fantastic franchises they´re sitting on....
 

Dooble

Member
Oct 28, 2017
2,469
This is not at all what any of their financial reports describe, to be honest. They have an increasing dependence on Pachinko machines, driving their net income moving forward towards 2020. They're definitely at least equal parts of the business.

Dependence is right, but increased dependence is not right because they are doing better and better with PC games, f2p and mobile, where they are growing. Pachinko is not a growing industry. Pachinko is their main source of profit but they actually spend way more money on gaming (with less profit). I have read every annual report since 2005 from them, and every now and then they say that pachi is to give stability to the whole operation.
 
Last edited:

sleepnaught

Banned
Oct 26, 2017
4,538
Its a dream of mine tbh, Would love to see a new SEGA console with cartridges. Recently, I bought a Genesis and have been splurging on a whole bunch of games, many of which I use to play as a kid. Having an absolute blast, more so than I have been with newer titles PC and the other consoles(except Switch, its awesome.)
 

ffvorax

Member
Oct 27, 2017
3,855
But why? Can't just they concentrate on doing better games for the available consoles?
I really don't care to see another competitor, even if they make their IP I love, exclusive to their console...
 

Wulfric

Member
Oct 25, 2017
5,966
Honestly, Amazon could probably come up with a better box considering how long SEGA has been gone from the hardware space. No way they have the engineering talent in-house anymore.
 

Alek

Games User Researcher
Verified
Oct 28, 2017
8,471
This is contradictory; if they are known in some way to an everyday consumer, then that means they have brand recognition. How much or how little isn't up to you or I, only Sega, and just comes down to what would be sufficient for whatever budget there is allocated to them. And not to argue semantics here, but when I hear the phrase "everyday consumer", I think of the mass market. I'd say more "to the core gamer" personally speaking, but core gamers are also mass market consumers. They aren't mutually exclusive.

Thanks for the long reply I do appreciate the discussion. I don't have time to address this all due to work, but a few points:

1. I didn't mean to say that games like Panzer dragoon are known to the everyday consumer. What I mean to say, is that they are known to the everyday gaming enthusiast, like us on resetera, but not the everyday consumer.

2. You're confusing user research with market research. User research doesn't mean 'designing by committee', user research focuses on things like usability, and whether players even understand, or are able to use the games core mechanics so that the developers design intentions can be realised. This does sometimes also focus on appeal and fun, but does not seek to take anything away from the developers intentions of the game. Something to bare in mind is developers do not seek to make bad games and their desired experiential intent is always positive, if the game is not being understood, if players are, for instance always falling off the edge of a Sonic level because the level design makes them think they should run in that direction (not uncommon in Sonic Forces) then it's unlikely that the player is having the experience that the developer intended to create.

DREAMs is my most anticipated game of 2018, so I can relate to what you're saying, but for what it's worth, DREAMs has undergone countless playtest. User researchers like myself have most certainly spent thousands of ours pouring over player behaviour trying to make that game as good as it can be. That does not mean the developers creative vision has somehow been sacrificed or that the game has been 'designed by committee' as you put it. All this confabulation with focus testing, market research, you didn't get that from me, that wasn't what I said.

However, regarding what you were saying, games like DREAMS do need to achieve at least reasonable numbers to sustain their studio. Only indies are producing games for fun alone.

3. I'm not mistaking innovation for anything. I'm saying that Sega don't have franchises that demonstrate that they can realise any new ideas successfully. That's a problem if they want to establish any new franchises, or reboot old. Yakuza is a game with original ideas at the time of its release, and therefore it doesn't need to innovate with every iteration, now. However, reboot of an old franchise would need to bring with it new and interesting ideas, in one form or another, and that's where Sega's issues do tend to lie. The best Sonic games are made by third parties (the racing games), outside of doing something similar, I don't see them being able to produce a good Panzer Dragoon, or anything else.
 

Booker.DeWitt

Member
Oct 25, 2017
2,844
I don't think Sega has the manpower to keep a console selling. they are not like Nintendo anymore.

that ship has sailed my friend.
 

kappa_krey

Banned
Jan 24, 2018
630
Thanks for the long reply I do appreciate the discussion. I don't have time to address this all due to work, but a few points:

1. I didn't mean to say that games like Panzer dragoon are known to the everyday consumer. What I mean to say, is that they are known to the everyday gaming enthusiast, like us on resetera, but not the everyday consumer.

2. You're confusing user research with market research. User research doesn't mean 'designing by committee', user research focuses on things like usability, and whether players even understand, or are able to use the games core mechanics so that the developers design intentions can be realised. This does sometimes also focus on appeal and fun, but does not seek to take anything away from the developers intentions of the game. Something to bare in mind is developers do not seek to make bad games and their desired experiential intent is always positive, if the game is not being understood, if players are, for instance always falling off the edge of a Sonic level because the level design makes them think they should run in that direction (not uncommon in Sonic Forces) then it's unlikely that the player is having the experience that the developer intended to create.

DREAMs is my most anticipated game of 2018, so I can relate to what you're saying, but for what it's worth, DREAMs has undergone countless playtest. User researchers like myself have most certainly spent thousands of ours pouring over player behaviour trying to make that game as good as it can be. That does not mean the developers creative vision has somehow been sacrificed or that the game has been 'designed by committee' as you put it. All this confabulation with focus testing, market research, you didn't get that from me, that wasn't what I said.

However, regarding what you were saying, games like DREAMS do need to achieve at least reasonable numbers to sustain their studio. Only indies are producing games for fun alone.

3. I'm not mistaking innovation for anything. I'm saying that Sega don't have franchises that demonstrate that they can realise any new ideas successfully. That's a problem if they want to establish any new franchises, or reboot old. Yakuza is a game with original ideas at the time of its release, and therefore it doesn't need to innovate with every iteration, now. However, reboot of an old franchise would need to bring with it new and interesting ideas, in one form or another, and that's where Sega's issues do tend to lie. The best Sonic games are made by third parties (the racing games), outside of doing something similar, I don't see them being able to produce a good Panzer Dragoon, or anything else.

NP; I enjoy these type of discussions myself, the opportunities in which they pop up are few and far.

[1]: Ah okay, glad that was cleared up. I can agree with you there, it is definitely not a IP well known to the mass-market at this time, or has been for years actually.

[2]: A few things. Using modern Sonic as an example here isn't completely faultless b/c for as many issues as some of those games can tend to have, I've also more than noticed various people who seem to almost actively not want to understand how to play them, or even the classic games, as if they are the gaming equivalent of Rubik's cubes. And I don't if that's just them trying to be funny or not using logic and context clues, but it's a pretty sad sight all around. With the classic games in particular, because you have a cult of people saying false stuff like "Sonic was never good" and almost always the first thing they try doing is saying "I can't play it like Mario."

Which is exactly the problem; you're not SUPPOSED to play it like Mario! It's its own game with its own meta and game mechanics and design goals, but players these days are so attuned to games conceding to their needs and taking as much of the thought out of the process for them, that they seem incapable of understanding this. When I was mentioning the "design-by-committee" stuff before part of it was actually in reference to this, and that extends to aspects of user feedback as well. Sometimes you're just going to get people who only want things that seem different on the surface but that difference is in fact artificial, and they just want more of the same. That's part of the reason for the increasing homogeneous nature of Western AAA games; try something too different and the audience gets frustrated quickly and resents the game, but that isn't always the game's fault, and a person isn't entitled to a game completely conceding itself to their tendencies simply because they spent $60 on it.

I'll move off from the focus-testing and market research part because it seems I did misunderstand you on that point, but regarding user research, I think it's a bit inaccurate to say companies like Sega don't engage in it at all. You have to keep in mind, however, that they are likely going to look for what Japanese gamers prefer as a large bulk of their games are focused on that market, and they could have different needs and wants from a Western player. And I would argue that historically speaking, companies like Sega went through some of the most grueling types of user-feedback the industry is known for, when you consider their arcade games. That was essentially a bit market of user feedback, sometimes in garnering tastes on what games could be good fits for home ports, going from the AOU shows all the way to their distributions to arcade centers as finalized products. The reason I say they were in a way the most grueling type of what you're describing, is because the money would already be spent on manufacturing the technology, the cabinets, the distribution, and the game. If those games bombed, operators would be out of a lot of revenue, as would the manufacturers, and that'd probably lead to much less orders for a manufacturer's next game, and less distributors willing to take them.

The fact that during the golden years of arcades and well into the '90s/early '00s companies like Sega (along with Namco, Capcom, SNK, Konami etc. just to name a few of the biggest players) were able to consistently find success with their machines and games proves that they had an ability to make stuff that'd resonate with the end-users, and that feedback would help in determining (technology and timing permitting) what games to port to home systems. The fact Sega is still around as a software developer and continues to get good feedback on new stuff like Daytona (in fact complaints about the steering wheel there are what led them to fix it in an update relatively quickly) and the new House of the Dead proves that they are willing and able to curate feedback from users. They just have a tendency to curate that feedback from a different type of user than, say, Sony is using for DREAMS.

[3]: Can't really see why you are insistent on this point when I have mentioned them bringing back games like Virtual On (which is bringing a new angle for that series that seems kind of fresh and oddly fits in line w/ it thematically if you have an affiliation with mecha anime) and House of the Dead, a spiritual successor to Super GT that had positive user feedback at location tests, and a new Valkyrie Chronicles looking to amend mistakes of a couple previous entries and going with what's proven to work while balancing in new ideas. They own Atlus, a very reliable studio for JRPGs, and a company they could easily tap for something like a new Panzer Dragoon (as a JRPG, or a rail shooter as Atlus have developed non-JRPGs in the past) or Skies of Arcadia. They still have AM2 and AM3 making consistently quality games, the issue there being that stuff has been locked to Asian arcades so most of us haven't gotten a chance to play them (which is something they need to fix), Creative Assembly (who made the best Alien game in years), etc.

You seem to only be looking at this from your perspective and definition of what these new fresh ideas are, so it'd be helpful to list games that you feel actually bring these ideas about and mention why you feel that way. Otherwise there isn't a point going further on that particular tangent since there's no compare and contrast. I don't even consider Sonic their best IP and never have, but it's disingenuous to use it as the example here when they have more consistent IP currently going that have measured up to their expectations more than that one, and that is with considering of internal development studios or studios they own, not third-parties like Sumo Digital and Whitehead's studio.

I'd even say I don't think Sonic Team is a complete lost, as the issue there comes down to Sega putting questionable members in positions they don't deserve to be in, simply out of seniority. Because the talent is there; they have the artists, they have the programmers, they have the musicians, they even have the level designers and writers going by stuff like Generations. The problem is organization, and (imho) weariness in working w/ the Sonic IP. But I wouldn't use that to go to saying the entire company as a whole, with all of its dev studios taken into account, is unable to bring back any of its old IP, even stuff like Panzer Dragoon. They just need to organize the assets there more efficiently, and they've been showing a willingness to do that, outside of Sonic (Mania being Whitehead's studio's work mostly w/ some Sonic Team consultants and all).
 

Tickling

Banned
Oct 29, 2017
961
Tbh I couldn't care less as it would be doomed to fail. It wouldn't get the market share to become relevant. They don't have the funds and don't have the pull bar for us for nostalgia reasons
 

IrishNinja

Banned
Oct 27, 2017
9,837
Vice City
i adore classic sega more than most, but again, their software output (they & their affiliates) last gen was the best they'd done since the dreamcast era.

they're finally in a healthier place, while the market realities that forced them out have only worsened. i'd buy nearly any system they slap their name on & support, but we're really better off supporting their current efforts (Yakuza 6 coming in april y'all)

also anything we can do to get them to stop making retro systems with ATgames would be fantastic