Errm no.
Native Americans were screwed over hugely and just saying 'deal with it' is ridiculous.
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It is time for European countries that participated in colonialism to repay the places they fucked over
- Thread starter Heromanz
- Start date
Errm no.
Native Americans were screwed over hugely and just saying 'deal with it' is ridiculous.
Never really heard about neocolonialism before but a quick wiki search tells me it's exploitation through a combination of capitalism, globalisation, cultural imperialism, and conditional aid. Absolutely agree with ya, Gob.
I'm pretty sure that 99% of French people coming from colonized countries (except maybe some pieds-noirs) would be more than happy to do so.
Remember that they probably still have family there.
Right, the British weren't responsible for the largest slave trade market and then weren't committing genocide and oppressing whole nations right into the 1950's. GTFO.
A lot more I think. Isn't 10% of the french population muslim ? So that'd cover only part of the immigration/people of ex-colonies descent.
Wait, really ? You really think people coming from colonized countries would be more than happy to PAY for what France did ? And PAY corrupt governments ? I don't think so.
Oh no, a joke on a gaming forum not intended for serious political discussions!
Fuck, we screwed over black immigrants this decade. See: https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2020/feb/10/windrush-deporting-people
User Banned (2 months): concern trolling over a series of posts
Well you can't just have one rule for one and one rule for another. Do you feel strongly about Turkey repaying Europe for the colonialism of the Ottoman Empire?
OP
OP
These post cant be real right? Like y'all do understand what racism is right?
It does, many western Europeans are pretty racist towards eastern and southern Europeans.
Europe isn't some big monolith, it encompasses many countries and cultures.
In an ideal world we'd invest in poorer countries and help build infrastructure (not meaning let big business cronies come in and exploit for their own profit), educate (not indoctrinate) and bring everyone on Earth up to the same standard of living. But surely that's too logical and naive and when have we ever lived in an ideal world, sigh.
Oh no, a internet dude making light of genocide and oppression. Truly a genius he is, a real comedian.
Y so serious, eh?
Sincerely,
Get fucked.
Get fucked.
There is a discussion of reparations going as far back as the slave trade in France. Reminder that we paid slavers for their lost business when slavery was abolished. I don't think it would be that far-fetched to pay reparations to the actual people who were affected.
But this is currently not more important to me than it is to make sure to get rid of neocolonialism. Western countries are still heavily profiting from those countries.
I feel the dismissiveness people get from the comments (apart from the ones genuinely meant as only that) comes from the fact the OP's premise is kinda half-baked. That kind of opening doesn't invite good conversation because it tries to put the complexities of history, geography and human population dynamics into an ill conveived binary proposition.
It seems to be very easy to make you angry. There is almost as much quality in the opening post as there is in your comments.
The sad thing is this exploitation and imperialism is not a thing of the past with competing world powers still setting up and maintaining their own power structures to continue modern forms of cultural and economic theft which is legal before the eyes of the law just as past thefts and violence were before.
I understand exactly what the OP is saying. I would also add their is an insult to injury when European countries who feign civility hold onto their war treasures so they can continue to re-contextualize the cultures of other people as less civilized in the name of tourism and commerce.
I understand exactly what the OP is saying. I would also add their is an insult to injury when European countries who feign civility hold onto their war treasures so they can continue to re-contextualize the cultures of other people as less civilized in the name of tourism and commerce.
I can't believe I need to quote a dictionary:
[uncountable] (disapproving) the unfair treatment of people who belong to a different race; violent behaviour towards them. a victim of racism.
You're talking about systemic/institutional racism.
As a Greek I'm not giving anyone shit, first need money from Italy, Turkey and the full reparation from Germany from WW2.
definitely.
also, i think it would be hard to find many countries that dont have racism or hatred (wether justified or not) towards another country or ethnic group. List would be very short
What i meant is that western europe and easter europe are both considered caucasian/white. If germans hate polish people (for example) who are both "white" is it still considered racism? Or is there another term that should be used? Genuine question.
Most them are already helping their families overseas financially, so the idea of France finally recognizing the awful impact colonization had on their countries would be great yeah.
Furthermore, most corrupt governments in the former French colonies were put in place by the French government. So it would probably need a complete removal of interferences coming from the French government but I don't see the people who originated from colonized countries being widely against the idea itself.
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Enjoy the ban.
EuroEra really showing their ass in these first couple pages.
EuroEra: Lol, America and their racist President. Such an ignorant and racist country.
Also EuroEra: What do you mean we gotta pay for centuries of slavery, colonialism, racism, and oppression?!
I think the issue is, I don't trust politicians to give the money without certain diplomatic caveats and I don't expect the politicians that receive it to spend it wisely. If there was a way to do it that didn't involve corruption I would be down with it. Also, it becomes difficult to decide who gets what because displacement of people didn't start or end with colonialism unfortunately.
I will admit that I am uneducated on the matter of past reparations to know its history, but I do agree that there is a lot more that the 1st world countries should be doing.
P.S- yikes that first page turned into a graveyard with all of the bans.
P.S- yikes that first page turned into a graveyard with all of the bans.
This is very true. I'm extremely embarrassed of my fellow Euro peeps.
Right now other than maybe Germany and the Netherlands I don't know if the other governments have the finantial capabilities
I mean, racists 200 years ago knew that colonialism was a great injustice that would come back to haunt Europeans.
Johann Gottfried Herder directly confronted the nexus of European global domination and colonial violence, and suggested that history would have its revenge. "Europe must give compensation for the debts that it has incurred, make good the crimes that it has committed—not from choice but according to the very nature of things."
That was common sense more than 150 years ago.
That guy was wildly racist, yet he was also familiar with moral philosophy at the time and knew that colonialism was wrong.
To say that it is "about time" kind of obscures the fact that it has always been time and the subsequent fact that Europeans always ignored their responsibility because they could.
That is not going to change.
Johann Gottfried Herder directly confronted the nexus of European global domination and colonial violence, and suggested that history would have its revenge. "Europe must give compensation for the debts that it has incurred, make good the crimes that it has committed—not from choice but according to the very nature of things."
That was common sense more than 150 years ago.
That guy was wildly racist, yet he was also familiar with moral philosophy at the time and knew that colonialism was wrong.
To say that it is "about time" kind of obscures the fact that it has always been time and the subsequent fact that Europeans always ignored their responsibility because they could.
That is not going to change.
it's really remarkable how toxic gaming side can be. this thread is a goddam graveyard of 'slavery was whatever, gimme vidya'
Sadly, many times the colonial powers signed treaties with their ex colonies to prevent any future reparations.
For those who dismiss this idea entirely, (war) reparations in Europe are certainly a thing.
Germany for example payed war reparations for the First World War up until 2010. https://www.zeit.de/wissen/geschichte/2010-10/weltkrieg-schulden-deutschland
Second World War is a bit more complicated because of the way Germany had to repay their reparations.
On the other hand, the EU / european countries are already by far Africa's largest donor via foreign aid.
The collective Official Development Assistance (ODA) from the European Union and its Member States amounted to €75.2 billion in 2019, representing 55.2% of global assistance, according to preliminary figures released today by the Organisation for Economic Co-operation and Development's Development Assistance Committee (OECD-DAC).
You could argue to recognize some of the money as reparations (which wouldn't change the amount, but maybe who gets it (like families or tribes affected the most)) or pay a certain amount on top of this, recognized as reparations.
Germany for example payed war reparations for the First World War up until 2010. https://www.zeit.de/wissen/geschichte/2010-10/weltkrieg-schulden-deutschland
Second World War is a bit more complicated because of the way Germany had to repay their reparations.
On the other hand, the EU / european countries are already by far Africa's largest donor via foreign aid.
The collective Official Development Assistance (ODA) from the European Union and its Member States amounted to €75.2 billion in 2019, representing 55.2% of global assistance, according to preliminary figures released today by the Organisation for Economic Co-operation and Development's Development Assistance Committee (OECD-DAC).
You could argue to recognize some of the money as reparations (which wouldn't change the amount, but maybe who gets it (like families or tribes affected the most)) or pay a certain amount on top of this, recognized as reparations.
As recent as last century there's European/American colonies, this didn't all happen more than 500 years ago.
as an American I have no issues at all giving Native Americans reparations.
as an American I have no issues at all giving Native Americans reparations.
I think 1st world countries can do a hell of a lot more in rebuilding the countries we stole and profited off of so i'm all for it.
It is more about this
U.S., European Subsidies Undercut African Farmers
African governments have long complained that U.S. and European agricultural subsidies are undercutting African farmers. Western farm-support programs and cheap cotton dumped on the world market are impeding efforts to end Africa's cycle of poverty.
www.npr.org
African governments have long complained that U.S. and European agricultural subsidies are undercutting African farmers. Western farm-support programs and cheap cotton dumped on the world market are impeding efforts to end Africa's cycle of poverty.
In northern Mozambique, cotton farmer Americo Candido Asan says U.S. subsidies drive prices ever lower, making it difficult for him to make a profit.
Candido, 35, plants five acres of cotton each year. He does all of the work in his fields by hand. Once a year at harvest time, the local cotton company sends a four-wheel-drive truck to pick up his sacks of cotton.
"Here in Mozambique we don't have any help from the government," Candido says. "So if they have subsidies, it means American farmers have everything prepared for them. But here we are using our own money, our own labor, and the price always becomes lower and lower because of them -- the Americans -- it's not fair."
Cotton is grown in several parts of Africa. It's a major crop in South Africa, Zimbabwe, Malawi and Tanzania, as well as Mozambique. There's also significant cotton production in West Africa, particularly in Mali, Burkina Faso and Benin.
Cotton exporters say this part of northern Mozambique should be able to sell cotton at competitive prices. It has plentiful rainfall. Labor, at about $1 a day, is cheap. The main roads have been rebuilt after a lengthy civil war and are in excellent shape, by African standards. There's a functioning railway linking the area with a port on the Indian Ocean.
But growers complain that they're barely making a living from their crops, and in recent years, several large cotton companies have gone out of business.
Issufo Nurmamade, the owner of a cotton company called SANAM in the city of Nampula, says he hasn't made a profit on cotton fiber in three years, and his business is only staying afloat because he produces and markets cottonseed oil for the domestic market.
Mozambique exports all of its cotton fiber. The country used to have factories to spin cotton into thread and there were even several textile factories producing clothes, but they've all shut their doors.
The majority of Africans earn a living -- sometimes just a subsistence living -- through agriculture.
Mohammed Lamine, who works for Oxfam in Dakar, says the billions of dollars in subsidies paid each year to farmers in the United States and Europe are undercutting African farmers.
And it's not just affecting cotton. Lamine says that cheap, subsidized powdered milk from Europe has flooded West African markets.
"If you go through the countryside in Senegal or Mali, you won't be able to find local milk... because the powdered milk has destroyed the whole dairy sector in West Africa, Lamine says. Lamine says the agricultural policies of the world's richest nations are choking economic development in some of the poorest countries on the globe.
A typical African cotton farmer will earn $300 to $400 a year from his crop. Usually he'll grow other food crops -- corn, cassava, peanuts -- to feed his family. But cotton may be that farmer's only avenue to cash.
Oxfam estimates that between 2001 and 2003 alone, U.S. subsidies cost African cotton growers roughly $400 million. Lamine says eliminating all cotton subsidies could raise world prices for the commodity by 10 percent to 12 percent. While an extra $30 or $40 a year might mean nothing to a Western farmer, Lamine says it would be significant for Africans.
"Saying that 'If you get rid of all distorting subsidies, producers will be rich,' that's not what we are saying," he says. "But let's get rid of one of the major factors that is contributing to the impoverishment of cotton producers in Africa."
Despite falling cotton prices, U.S. cotton production rose 40 percent between 1998 and 2001. Lamine says this extra cotton is being dumped on the global market at below the cost of production.
Last year, the World Trade Organization upheld a ruling against the United States stating that American cotton subsidies are illegal. The United States has moved to eliminate export subsidies, but under the farm bill which expires in 2007, the vast majority of payments to U.S. growers continue.
In Mozambique, cotton producers say that it's not just agricultural subsidies that are stacked against them. They say the West also dumps second-hand clothes into Africa at prices that stifle local textile production.
Vincent Marush Sando, who coordinates a domestic-cotton promotion campaign in Mozambique's capital Maputo, says Africa should place stiff import duties on used clothes from the West.
He says the bigger problem is that African nations have very little influence over the flows of global trade. And as Africans try to find their niche in the world marketplace, he says, the system always seems to be working against them.
For those saying it's unfair and all that. This is a great time to point out Haiti was forced to pay France the equivalent of $21b in compensation for overthrowing France's colonial rule and slavery. Haiti didn't finish paying it off until 1947.
As a latino man, I want the European countries to at least, give back all the artistic and archeological pieces that belonged to our ancestors.
I was mad with rage when I saw pieces from my country on a museum on Spain.
I was mad with rage when I saw pieces from my country on a museum on Spain.
Like my grandparents lived through a genocide committed during French rule.
It's not that long ago.
I think it's in everyone's interests to ensure that more people around the world have lives that are free from poverty, and have equal opportunities etc.
So in that sense, I absolutely think assistance should be provided.
As to how, I'm not too sure - I like the idea of aid funding (which is already done) as long as there's clear oversight to ensure that those who need it are receiving it. Maybe that aid should be increased.
Doesn't even need to be framed as some form of repayment for past misdeeds, just a common sense approach that providing assistance to those who need it (often those same countries that have been exploited) is the morally right thing to do.
So in that sense, I absolutely think assistance should be provided.
As to how, I'm not too sure - I like the idea of aid funding (which is already done) as long as there's clear oversight to ensure that those who need it are receiving it. Maybe that aid should be increased.
Doesn't even need to be framed as some form of repayment for past misdeeds, just a common sense approach that providing assistance to those who need it (often those same countries that have been exploited) is the morally right thing to do.
That is a great example of what should be paid back.
France itself should recognise how disgusting it was that Haiti paid 'compensation' for freedom.
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So you want the EU to effectively end CAP? That would mean the majority of the 25 million farmers in europe would lose their jobs. Don't see why any goverment having to face their own voters would do this.
By American racial standards, Europe is fairly "white", even if they identify more along lines of ethnicity rather than the US definition of race. Brexit, the Syrian refugee crisis, and the colonialism reparations pearl clutching in this thread shows us everything we needed to know.
EDIT: but to contribute to the discussion, I'm not sure the best way to go about it. I don't like the whataboutism bringing up civilizations like the ancient Greeks and Romans. Those civilizations don't exist anymore, but countries like the UK, Spain, Belgium, etc. very much do exist and some only recently granted independence to former colonies. This is my argument why the US government owes reparations on account of slavery since the US government still exists today and benefited greatly back then.