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Oct 27, 2017
11,505
Bandung Indonesia
I don't know, that's why I'm asking. The thread seems incredibly vague on what allies can do to show their support beyond viewing games in a different light and posting on forums like this. I would think if how this game handles LGBTQ characters is that problematic then a boycott is not a bridge too far.

Just do whatever it is you think as the best you can do to show support.

In my opinion, asking for approval from someone for the things that you do to support something like this is not really the way to go. "Is it good enough?" you ask as you do A. "How about now, is it good enough?" you ask as you do A+B. "How is it now, is it good enough?" you ask as you A+B+C.... I mean, I don't know your situation, so I am not even sure telling you that you are doing good enough or not good enough for A+B+C+D is the right way to do...

Well... that's my opinion though. As for me, I am supportive to more inclusion for all kinds of people in videogame (and any other form of media)... as to what I do to show that support, well, I've done and will to continue to do the best I am capable of in my own capacity. That is all I can do, I think.
 

Mobyduck

Member
Oct 27, 2017
2,100
Brazil
This. I mean, we can be sympathetic of a cause or an issue, even if it isn't ours, but if we really want to see a change, we DO need explicit actions that need to be taken besides a general shift in attitude, like "yeah, I'll be supportive" or "yeah, I'm fine with gay representation in games".

In my personal case, the only franchise I really care about is Pokémon, and other than that, even though I do play some games here and there, nothing is as important to me to evoke some kind of reaction if they take one direction or another. So I really don't know which games are traditionally known for portraying romantic arcs or something, or which developers have been explicitly against gay content/ gay characters, or I don't know, something that needs to be addressed.

What are we supposed to do? Demand every game developer out there to include more gay/queer characters in their games, whether that has relevancy or not in their gameplay? Or ask the developer of one game/franchise in particular? Like Tekken or something?

Because then there's the issue of not only what we're asking for, but how are we asking for it. As I said, Pokémon is the only franchise I'm really obsessed with, and currently we've had to deal with the #BringBackNationalDex thing which has divided the fanbase a bit: people who were upset with not all the Pokémon coming back in the next games, or ever again, and people who didn't care about it / were happy about the decision.

Then from those groups, the first one divides into people who have been vocal about it in a normal, coherent, rational way, and people who have taken an attitude of insulting the developers, threatening them, bringing up other issues, usually false, to exaggerate the complaints, etc. The second group however has taken as well several attitudes: those who defend the developers no matter what, against any argument, and those who have actually started to insult and be aggressive too with those who are complaining in general (whether the complaints were offensive or not).

So if someone threatens or personally insults Junichi Masuda or any other developer of the games, that's totally wrong and there's no question about it. But then, for example, you can't go to Facebook or Twitter Pokémon accounts and comment #BringBackNationalDex without a bunch of people jumping at you telling you all sorts of negative things and how you should stop complaining and ruining the fun for everyone else, and how wrong you are and that you have to deal with it and move on, and it's like, really?



So I'm very curious to know how are we supposed to speak up about something that is bothering us, or that we think is wrong without breaking whatever imaginary rules people on the Internet have about the correct etiquette of online complaining.

And in this topic in particular about queer representation in games, or in the game scene in general, is important for all of us interested in helping, to know where to start, who are we speaking to, what are the points we're fighting for, what is it specifically that we're demanding.

Because this opens a huge debate. Homophobia and any kind of discrimination are not ok, but, do every franchise, every developer is obliged to include at least a queer character on every game? Or the same amount of straight characters than gay if it isn't even relevant to the story or the gameplay? Or are we asking only those games that include some sort of romantic plot? Or are we asking them to leave the games that already exist the way they are, but instead release a new kind of game that specifically focuses in the inclusion of queer characters/themes/plots?

Does not including a gay character equal to being homophobic? Because I think a game like, I don't know, Crash Team Racing doesn't need explicitly straight or gay characters, and yet we have cases like N. Gin wearing a ballerina outfit, which people can take as whatever they want.

So, yeah, it wouldn't hurt to have some sort of plan to follow. I mean, it's evident that there's a lot of people that's either homophobic or indifferent to the cause, so much that this thread needed to be done, so I think it's more than obvious that people need to be enlightened as to what are we supposed to do to effectively help the queer gamers community, imo.
Concerning some of your points, my general advice is to let the queer voices in the community/industry raise the issue and then show your support. There is no point in going around saying every game has to have queer characters, since all it does is start the "token character" debate. Instead, show support of queer authors who wrote articles about the general lack of queer characters, or how they are usually badly written or how they are received by the general community. Read, learn, share, discuss, enlighten.

For example, during the Cyberpunk debate, I tried to highlight the voice of trans people, who certainly know more about the subject than me.
 

RoninChaos

Member
Oct 26, 2017
8,331
I wasn't acting like an ass, I'm expecting people to be more self reliant when choosing a way to help out a cause they find important.

I'm not understanding this idea of needing to be lead by the hand on how to get involved. I'm not king of the gay people. What would you do if faced with a situation that did affect you directly and you wanted to get involved? Do that same thing here. We all have it within ourselves to be productive, and proactive.

Letting ourselves get bogged down by complacency is just another way to forgo responsibility.
You put out a call for action, people are asking what's appropriate so they can show support and you're actively shooting them down by being an aggressive ass. Issues that are important to you may not be for someone else. So when someone sees another person go "This thing that's happening is a problem and I need your help" and they ask "What can I do?" The proper response isn't to tel them to figure it out. You're demanding other people step up but then you're immediately abdicating your own responsibility of informing the very people you're calling out. That's stupid as fuck.
 
OP
OP
Hours Left

Hours Left

Member
Oct 26, 2017
18,394
You put out a call for action, people are asking what's appropriate so they can show support and you're actively shooting them down by being an aggressive ass. Issues that are important to you may not be for someone else. So when someone sees another person go "This thing that's happening is a problem and I need your help" and they ask "What can I do?" The proper response isn't to tel them to figure it out. You're demanding other people step up but then you're immediately abdicating your own responsibility of informing the very people you're calling out. That's stupid as fuck.
I disagree.
 

MayorSquirtle

Member
May 17, 2018
7,927
I wasn't acting like an ass, I'm expecting people to be more self reliant when choosing a way to help out a cause they find important.

I'm not understanding this idea of needing to be lead by the hand on how to get involved. I'm not king of the gay people. What would you do if faced with a situation that did affect you directly and you wanted to get involved? Do that same thing here. We all have it within ourselves to be productive, and proactive.

Letting ourselves get bogged down by complacency is just another way to forgo responsibility.
Asking a question isn't complacency, but stubbornly refusing to help someone with a question is imo. It's incredibly common for regular people to feel like they don't have a voice or that their actions will not contribute towards significant change. It's incredibly common to not know how to get involved in a way that will matter. Often, these people already know that phone calls, tweets, emails, or boycotts are the only decent options available to them, they just feel like they're only a drop in the bucket so what's the point? What they need is encouragement that those things actually can cause change (like in the case of Mass Effect Andromeda's post-launch patch that made Jaal bi), rather than criticism that they're not being imaginative enough.
 
Oct 25, 2017
12,192
It's why I promptly removed Catherine Full Body from my Steam wishlist and advised against the buy from a friend.
Bigotry is bigotry, directed towards me or not.
 

DrStrange87

The Fallen
Feb 8, 2018
635
You put out a call for action, people are asking what's appropriate so they can show support and you're actively shooting them down by being an aggressive ass. Issues that are important to you may not be for someone else. So when someone sees another person go "This thing that's happening is a problem and I need your help" and they ask "What can I do?" The proper response isn't to tel them to figure it out. You're demanding other people step up but then you're immediately abdicating your own responsibility of informing the very people you're calling out. That's stupid as fuck.
This is how I'd feel if I wasn't a gay man.
 

Aaronrules380

Avenger
Oct 25, 2017
22,427
It's why I promptly removed Catherine Full Body from my Steam wishlist and advised against the buy from a friend.
Bigotry is bigotry, directed towards me or not.
Yeah, Catherine was an example of a game I might've strongly considered buying if the blatant transphobia wasn't present, but as is I just don't think I could ever get myself to even consider supporting that game
 
OP
OP
Hours Left

Hours Left

Member
Oct 26, 2017
18,394
Asking a question isn't complacency, but stubbornly refusing to help someone with a question is imo. It's incredibly common for regular people to feel like they don't have a voice or that their actions will not contribute towards significant change. It's incredibly common to not know how to get involved in a way that will matter. Often, these people already know that phone calls, tweets, emails, or boycotts are the only decent options available to them, they just feel like they're only a drop in the bucket so what's the point? What they need is encouragement that those things actually can cause change (like in the case of Mass Effect Andromeda's post-launch patch that made Jaal bi), rather than criticism that they're not being imaginative enough.
This thread is the encouragement.

What I won't do is hold someone's hands, or coax them to get involved. That has been shown time and time again not to work. The idea that people need convincing to get involved shows the lack of conviction in the first place. Placing the burden on the discriminated, instead of the people with the power and privilege to change it. "Prove you're worthy of me helping you." Where does that get anyone?

People want to try and shame me for being blunt? Go wild. I don't care. Anyone who is that easily dissuaded because they aren't being given the step by step instructions on how to do their part aren't serious to begin with. This isn't me being rude or cruel, it's me being straightforward.
 

Cyclonesweep

Banned
Oct 29, 2017
7,690
This thread is the encouragement.

What I won't do is hold someone's hands, or coax them to get involved. That has been shown time and time again not to work. The idea that people need convincing to get involved shows the lack of conviction in the first place. Placing the burden on the discriminated, instead of the people with the power and privilege to change it. "Prove you're worthy of me helping you." Where does that get anyone?

People want to try and shame me for being blunt? Go wild. I don't care. Anyone who is that easily dissuaded because they aren't being given the step by step instructions on how to do their part aren't serious to begin with. This isn't me being rude or cruel, it's me being straightforward.
No one's trying to shame you dude.

You are telling straight dudes that it's their job to do more to help you. Straight dudes are asking what you want them to do to help and you essentially are telling them to get lost cause they don't already know how to help.

You seem angry and telling allies to screw off for asking you how they can help you seems like a great way to get people to help you.

You literally made this thread dude.
 

AntiMacro

Member
Oct 27, 2017
3,135
Alberta
This thread is the encouragement.

What I won't do is hold someone's hands, or coax them to get involved. That has been shown time and time again not to work. The idea that people need convincing to get involved shows the lack of conviction in the first place. Placing the burden on the discriminated, instead of the people with the power and privilege to change it. "Prove you're worthy of me helping you." Where does that get anyone?

People want to try and shame me for being blunt? Go wild. I don't care. Anyone who is that easily dissuaded because they aren't being given the step by step instructions on how to do their part aren't serious to begin with. This isn't me being rude or cruel, it's me being straightforward.
Nobody was asking for fucking coaxing - they were asking for advice on what to do. You being an asshole isn't going to help your cause one bit.

Maybe they weren't serious about the cause, but they were interested enough to ask what they can do to help. Instead of taking that and helping them to DO SOMETHING you were an asshat and ensured they'll do nothing. Might want to reconsider that approach.

Just being 'blunt'
 

RoninChaos

Member
Oct 26, 2017
8,331
This thread is the encouragement.

What I won't do is hold someone's hands, or coax them to get involved. That has been shown time and time again not to work. The idea that people need convincing to get involved shows the lack of conviction in the first place. Placing the burden on the discriminated, instead of the people with the power and privilege to change it. "Prove you're worthy of me helping you." Where does that get anyone?

People want to try and shame me for being blunt? Go wild. I don't care. Anyone who is that easily dissuaded because they aren't being given the step by step instructions on how to do their part aren't serious to begin with. This isn't me being rude or cruel, it's me being straightforward.

Who the fuck is saying "prove you're worthy of me helping you"? People said "How can I help?" and you shit on them. And now you think people are "shaming" you because your behavior got pointed out? Get off your cross.
 
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KillLaCam

Prophet of Truth
Member
Oct 25, 2017
15,382
Seoul
I understand the problems and wouldnt buy a game with obvious homophobia or stuff. However none of this has happened in a game that I've been interested in , so there's not much I could really do. The most I could do is share the news or something. I can't really boycott something I wasn't gonna buy anyway
 
OP
OP
Hours Left

Hours Left

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Oct 26, 2017
18,394
No one's trying to shame you dude.

You are telling straight dudes that it's their job to do more to help you. Straight dudes are asking what you want them to do to help and you essentially are telling them to get lost cause they don't already know how to help.

You seem angry and telling allies to screw off for asking you how they can help you seems like a great way to get people to help you.

You literally made this thread dude.
Nobody was asking for fucking coaxing - they were asking for advice on what to do. You being an asshole isn't going to help your cause one bit.

Maybe they weren't serious about the cause, but they were interested enough to ask what they can do to help. Instead of taking that and helping them to DO SOMETHING you were an asshat and ensured they'll do nothing. Might want to reconsider that approach.

Just being 'blunt'
Who the fuck is saying "prove you're worthy of me helping you"? People said "How can I help?" and you shit on them. And now people are "shaming" you because that got pointed out? Get off your cross.
This is the post you're all taking so much offense to.

"If you need to be told an exact action to take, you're not giving it nearly enough thought."

This is the earth shattering smack down I laid upon the helpless poster. (Who if you actually paid attention to the thread, you'll see I've already further discussed it with them and they seem totally content with what I replied with.)

But please continue to go ape shit about how horrible I am and how I've disgraced my own cause with my cruelty and spite. I am truly despicable.
 

Aaronrules380

Avenger
Oct 25, 2017
22,427
For all the people tone policing the OP, if you must do it please at least move it to PMs instead of derailing the thread and making it about what the OP is doing wrong rather than what we need to be doing to help
 

RoninChaos

Member
Oct 26, 2017
8,331
For all the people tone policing the OP, if you must do it please at least move it to PMs instead of derailing the thread and making it about what the OP is doing wrong rather than what we need to be doing to help
It's not tone policing when people in this thread have said "I'd love to help. How can I?" And got shit on by the op.
 

lvl 99 Pixel

Member
Oct 25, 2017
44,639
I dunno how people can step up outside of just being better and encouraging those around to be more understanding in general. Sometimes it just feels impossible though, like my extended family thinks both my sister and myself are going to hell just for not fitting this hardline christian hetero ideal and standing up for her when a family gathering got uneasy caused so many problems :/
 

Deleted member 16657

User requested account closure
Banned
Oct 27, 2017
10,198
"Straight gamers need to stand up for queer gamers, this is a problem"

"Agreed, how can I help?"

"You lack conviction, figure it out yourself"

giphy.gif
 

Cyclonesweep

Banned
Oct 29, 2017
7,690
The only way for real change to happen is to continue to get the conversation in the open and to promote and buy games that are showing the change for the better.

At the end of the day businesses will do what's best for their bottom line.

Don't buy games who are refusing to change. Buy the ones that do
 

Aaronrules380

Avenger
Oct 25, 2017
22,427
No, let them get their rage out in the open.
I think all else aside, this thread would be a lot more effective if we let it focus on your actual message instead of how you're delivering it wrong. While it might be fun or carthartic in some way to expose people who are arguing in bad faith (which they may not necessarily be, but quite possibly are) I think it's way more important that we focus on the actual issue and this whole conversation detracts from it. Anyway this type of post from me is also kind of derailing, so if you want to continue discussing please pm me instead, I'm done mentioning it here
 

z1ggy

Member
Oct 25, 2017
4,187
Argentina
OP

I´m pretty much a nobody on the gaming comunity but i do and will do my best to support LGBTQ+ comunity. Demanding companies a better threatment in their products via social media and direct mails could be a start. Maybe a coordinated action could help as well.

My DM is open for anyone in the comunity that needs helps or support.
 

Xavi

Member
Oct 27, 2017
14,771
Lightning for Smash
Not sure how I can help in the videogames medium but I went to the pride parade here in my country and in my line of work I get to help/support LGBTIQ refugees in my country. I'm doing my part.
 

Deleted member 16657

User requested account closure
Banned
Oct 27, 2017
10,198
Did you actually read the entirety of the conversation this now ridiculous thread derailment is based on?

Sure did.

I think all else aside, this thread would be a lot more effective if we let it focus on your actual message instead of how you're delivering it wrong. While it might be fun or carthartic in some way to expose people who are arguing in bad faith (which they may not necessarily be, but quite possibly are) I think it's way more important that we focus on the actual issue and this whole conversation detracts from it

It would also be pretty effective to tell people who want to help how to help, though OP disagrees.
 

MrMegaMill

Member
Nov 28, 2017
548
I am gay. I agree with your sentiment. I was disappointed to hear about how FE3H handled it, but as someone who has lived in Japan for 3+ years, it does not surprise me. They are so far behind the West in LGBT+ representation and getting people to bring awareness to that is just what is needed.

However, letting people know methods in which they could help is not 'hand holding'. It is basic grassroots gathering of supporters for change. Not everyone instinctively knows what to do or how to support the cause, so more information never hurts.
 

Cyclonesweep

Banned
Oct 29, 2017
7,690
I am gay. I agree with your sentiment. I was disappointed to hear about how FE3H handled it, but as someone who has lived in Japan for 3+ years, it does not surprise me. They are so far behind the West in LGBT+ representation and getting people to bring awareness to that is just what is needed.

However, letting people know methods in which they could help is not 'hand holding'. It is basic grassroots gathering of supporters for change. Not everyone instinctively knows what to do or how to support the cause, so more information never hurts.
Especially in a thread where the original message is to step up and do more.
 

alvmew

Member
Nov 12, 2017
1,387
Did you actually read the entirety of the conversation this now ridiculous thread derailment is based on?

Ridiculous? I'd say the opposite - completely necessary.

OP, I feel like I understand part of where you are coming from, in that it's fucking exhausting to have to explain to non-marginalized groups how to help and what our experiences are like. I do LGBT civil rights work for a living so trust me, I know. And it really sucks that we are oftentimes required or otherwise asked to explain things. But the fact is, these folks inherently don't come with this knowledge or our experiences - that's why we're calling on them as allies. And for some, they don't have anything comparable, so asking them to think about solutions themselves or to place themselves in our shoes is so much easier said than done because they don't know where to begin. Hell, as a queer man of color, I don't even know where to sometimes and I live in this shit 24/7. Asking for help on how to help is a-okay in my book because at the end of the day, that means I'll have one more person out there fighting the fight the right way that otherwise might not be, and I know all too well how rare it is to have allies actually help.

Starting this type of thread invites folks who want to help but don't know how to to start doing so. I hate to say this, but you need to be able to handle that if you're going to open this door, otherwise you do yourself and these folks no favors.
 
OP
OP
Hours Left

Hours Left

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Oct 26, 2017
18,394
I think all else aside, this thread would be a lot more effective if we let it focus on your actual message instead of how you're delivering it wrong. While it might be fun or carthartic in some way to expose people who are arguing in bad faith (which they may not necessarily be, but quite possibly are) I think it's way more important that we focus on the actual issue and this whole conversation detracts from it
I agree, but I'm not going to have private conversations with rageaholics who can't even finish reading through a thread before effectively turning it into a place to puff their chests and act like they're the boss.

Did you get to this part then?

No need to apologize! You didn't say that; that's my thing because it's hard not to feel that way sometimes in the context of combatting systemic problems as an individual. I'm sure I came off more snarky than I intended too.

I absolutely adore and will continue to praise games for queer romance representation (AC Odyssey is a recent game that comes to mind). So tell you what, I will start buying games that feature such representation (and that I am interested in of course) at release rather than waiting for a sale. Supporting the devs with my wallet is probably the best I can do.
Doing the best you can is all anyone can ask, and everyone can help in different ways.

Frustration is a very common reaction to situations like these, and I feel that way a lot of the time. The important thing to do is power through it and push ourselves to do better.

-----

Ridiculous? I'd say the opposite - completely necessary.

OP, I feel like I understand part of where you are coming from, in that it's fucking exhausting to have to explain to non-marginalized groups how to help and what our experiences are like. I do LGBT civil rights work for a living so trust me, I know. And it really sucks that we are oftentimes required or otherwise asked to explain things. But the fact is, these folks inherently don't come with this knowledge or our experiences - that's why we're calling on them as allies. And for some, they don't have anything comparable, so asking them to think about solutions themselves or to place themselves in our shoes is so much easier said than done because they don't know where to begin. Hell, as a queer man of color, I don't even know where to sometimes and I live in this shit 24/7. Asking for help on how to help is a-okay in my book because at the end of the day, that means I'll have one more person out there fighting the fight the right way that otherwise might not be, and I know all too well how rare it is.

Starting this type of thread invites folks who want to help but don't know how to to start doing so. I hate to say this, but you need to be able to handle that if you're going to open this door, otherwise you do yourself and these folks no favors.
See above.
 

Deleted member 4037

User requested account closure
Banned
Oct 25, 2017
6,989
I think the fact we are being bogged down by whether op is handling this poorly instead of how to handle the problem is in and of itself a failing

I think at some point someone has to take the initiative to organize some kind of positive change and a general "do better" isnt going to move the needle imo
 

Encephalon

Member
Oct 26, 2017
5,851
Japan
It's just a little tiring to play so many Japanese games with increasingly present dating sim elements that are intertwined with gameplay systems when there are almost never any (male) same sex romance options. I never subscribed too much to the player character representing me, but I'm bored of pushing every character I play through straight romances when I'm not straight myself.

Stardew Valley was a breath of fresh air.
 

Cyclonesweep

Banned
Oct 29, 2017
7,690
I think the fact we are being bogged down by whether op is handling this poorly instead of how to handle the problem is in and of itself a failing

I think at some point someone has to take the initiative to organize some kind of positive change and a general "do better" isnt going to move the needle imo
Every strong movement has had strong leaders and voices to inspire and motivate

The messenger and how a message is said is almost always as powerful as the message itself.
 

Wood Man

Member
Oct 30, 2017
5,449
I'll do and say what I can, when I can, even if it's one small voice. I obviously won't support any game with homophobic tones. And when given the option I've recently been having my characters go a gay or lesbian path. I mean, I get tired of playing the straight man in every game, I like to mix it up and play a different story. Most recently Clem in Walking Dead.

I hope it's enough.
 

Gotdatmoney

Member
Oct 28, 2017
14,487
Every strong movement has had strong leaders and voices to inspire and motivate

The messenger and how a message is said is almost always as powerful as the message itself.

That's fine but not every discussion is a movement and not every call to action needs a leader.

Like, I'm not particularly fond of how opening is treating the thread nor agree with them but why make this into something it's not?

It's people on Resetera being told to be more vocal about queer gamers and queer options in gaming.

Some of yall are making this shit seem on some other level of analysis. Like the dude isn't responsible for educating the masses and being the perfect messenger or even a nice messenger and even if he/she was doing those things (which would be more helpful than what they are currently doing) it still doesn't change that those asking certainly can take the tiniest shred of responsibility and use google "before" they immediately jump to asking "how can I help".
 
OP
OP
Hours Left

Hours Left

Member
Oct 26, 2017
18,394
Nah, I know my strengths and being the voice of a movement and being inspiring ain't one of them. I will support said voice .
What would you want that voice to say? Do you have any ideas?

That's fine but not every discussion is a movement and not every call to action needs a leader.

Like, I'm not particularly fond of how opening is treating the thread nor agree with them but why make this into something it's not?

It's people on Resetera being told to be more vocal about queer gamers and queer options in gaming.

Some of yall are making this shit seem on some other level of analysis. Like the dude isn't responsible for educating the masses and being the perfect messenger or even a nice messenger and even if he/she was doing those things (which would be more helpful than what they are currently doing) it still doesn't change that those asking certainly can take the tiniest shred of responsibility and use google "before" they immediately jump to asking "how can I help".
Howdy, I did actually give suggestions further into the thread, but those have been glossed over.
 

Cyclonesweep

Banned
Oct 29, 2017
7,690
That's fine but not every discussion is a movement and not every call to action needs a leader.

Like, I'm not particularly fond of how opening is treating the thread nor agree with them but why make this into something it's not?

It's people on Resetera being told to be more vocal about queer gamers and queer options in gaming.

Some of yall are making this shit seem on some other level of analysis. Like the dude isn't responsible for educating the masses and being the perfect messenger or even a nice messenger and even if he/she was doing those things (which would be more helpful than what they are currently doing) it still doesn't change that those asking certainly can take the tiniest shred of responsibility and use google "before" they immediately jump to asking "how can I help".
Guy started a thread asking people to do more to help. Be a real ally. Why is it shocking that people are asking that person what that more is?
 

Cyclonesweep

Banned
Oct 29, 2017
7,690
What would you want that voice to say? Do you have any ideas?


Howdy, I did actually give suggestions further into the thread, but those have been glossed over.
I don't have any exact ideas on what that voice would say because I am not part of the group that's suffering. Having someone in the public eye that's a great speaker always helps.
 

Lastbroadcast

Member
Jul 6, 2018
1,938
Sydney, Australia
To the OP - I want to be an ally, and I want to know what that means in practice. And I want to listen to you about what you think that means. And I am prepared to take action myself.

Please don't write back something like "well you should know what to do".

Some of us genuinely don't!

I don't have your perspective. I'm not queer. I see a game where Nintendo has included 8 queer characters, and my first reactions is "great!'. That's my initial reaction because I'm old enough to remember a time when you'd be more likely to see a zombie chicken than an openly queer character in a Nintendo game. It's only when I listen to others that my perspective is challenged.

As consumers, does it mean boycotting the game? Does it mean merely complaining to the developer? Does it mean merely ranting on a message board or on social media? Or all of the above?
 

Aaronrules380

Avenger
Oct 25, 2017
22,427
To the OP - I want to be an ally, and I want to know what that means in practice. And I want to listen to you about what you think that means. And I am prepared to take action myself.

Please don't write back something like "well you should know what to do".

Some of us genuinely don't!

I don't have your perspective. I'm not queer. I see a game where Nintendo has included 8 queer characters, and my first reactions is "great!'. That's my initial reaction because I'm old enough to remember a time when you'd be more likely to see a zombie chicken than an openly queer character in a Nintendo game. It's only when I listen to others that my perspective is challenged.

As consumers, does it mean boycotting the game? Does it mean merely complaining to the developer? Does it mean merely ranting on a message board or on social media? Or all of the above?
I think it ultimately means doing what you think are appropriate measures that fit the situation and seem like they might lead to change. Even among queer people, many will have different reactions and opinions on the matter, so ultimately there is no one right path. Like, in regards to Fire Emblem in particular, I think there's enough evidence to suggest that the devs are indeed trying to improve that I think a boycott would be too harsh, and perhaps even counterproductive, so I personally think the best avenue is for us to find someone who can write a message for us in Japanese to express our concerns and give some constructive advice on what they can do better in the future. Obviously the response will vary depending on the situation, there is no one answer that's appropriate for every situation.
 
OP
OP
Hours Left

Hours Left

Member
Oct 26, 2017
18,394
To the OP - I want to be an ally, and I want to know what that means in practice. And I want to listen to you about what you think that means. And I am prepared to take action myself.

Please don't write back something like "well you should know what to do".

Some of us genuinely don't!

I don't have your perspective. I'm not queer. I see a game where Nintendo has included 8 queer characters, and my first reactions is "great!'. That's my initial reaction because I'm old enough to remember a time when you'd be more likely to see a zombie chicken than an openly queer character in a Nintendo game. It's only when I listen to others that my perspective is challenged.

As consumers, does it mean boycotting the game? Does it mean merely complaining to the developer? Does it mean merely ranting on a message board or on social media? Or all of the above?
I mentioned this to somebody else earlier, but think of it from the perspective of what if this issue did affect you directly? What is an action that you would take? Would you still want to play a game that perhaps doesn't take your humanity seriously, despite otherwise looking forward to it? Do you think adding your voice to a public outcry will be beneficial? The answer is what feels right to you.

The reason I can't give people specific instructions, is because there is no specific "correct" way to get involved. Find something you feel comfortable doing, then do that. That's helping. That's being an ally.

I'm certain you've been in situations where you were faced with a personal challenge and decided to take action. You are already equipped to do that in this situation as well.
 

Gotdatmoney

Member
Oct 28, 2017
14,487
Guy started a thread asking people to do more to help. Be a real ally. Why is it shocking that people are asking that person what that more is?

Who said it was shocking? What I said that this is not a movement and this person is not responsible for being a leader lol. They aren't responsible to tell you what that more is. If it was that simple, all this shit would be solved already wouldn't it?

It rings as disingenuous that all these people want to "help" but also can't take 5 fucking seconds to use google and look at ways they could help.

That's OP's point. I fundamentally disagree on some of the other logic they're putting forth but they certainly aren't wrong about this.

Straight men, how about we fucking apply ourselves and reach some conclusions on our own? Is that so difficult?
 

AntiMacro

Member
Oct 27, 2017
3,135
Alberta
What would you want that voice to say? Do you have any ideas?

"If you need to be told an exact thing to say, you're not giving it nearly enough thought."

That's kind of what that felt like. See it now?

Honestly if you make a thread calling for people to stand up and take action, you should expect them to ask what they can do...because even if they support the idea it's probably not something they're super familiar with so they won't HAVE any immediate ideas. And no, telling them to 'take 5 fucking seconds to google it' isn't really helpful, nor likely to inspire them to help.
 
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