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Lant_War

Classic Anus Game
The Fallen
Jul 14, 2018
23,538
Whenever somebody is criticizing a popular game, without fail there's another person dismissing their criticism with "But it sells well!", and most of the time they do it knowing it's a shit argument. For example, in a GTA VI thread from today we had this a lot regarding the quality of Rockstar's writing, with variations of the same "but muh sales" argument repeated ad nauseum because some people really just... couldn't argue normally without resorting to "people like it so it's good".

There's times where this argument holds weight, like when people complain about Nintendo games not dropping in price, or when discussing if people enjoyed a game, but most of the time it's used to just dismiss the criticism of a game the users in question personally like. It's a bad faith argument, hell I think it even counts as ad populum? Seems kinda obvious to have to say it, but a game selling well doesn't mean anything other than it sold well and that people probably like it. Thanks for coming to my TED talk.
 

ThousandEyes

Banned
Sep 3, 2019
1,388
I mean you can criticize all you want but I don't think rockstar is going to give a shit at the end of the day, because well their games sell
 

Dylan

Member
Oct 28, 2017
3,260
Pffft.

Next you're going to try to tell me that Shania Twain's "Come on Over" isn't the 12th greatest album of all time.
 

Z-Beat

One Winged Slayer
Member
Oct 25, 2017
31,830
Consider that the quantity of transactions for said item often meet or exceed expectations!
 

ThousandEyes

Banned
Sep 3, 2019
1,388
The inverse is true too. Highly successful games are seen as mainstream pop fun and somewhat devoid of artistic merit. You know how many people I have seen describe GTA V's incredible continuing success as "little kids keep buying it" or because it's the game you buy with a new console. It can't be because it's an amazing game
 

Mr. Genuine

Member
Mar 23, 2018
1,616
If I'm considering a purchase, what am I supposed to believe more? Objective sales numbers, or some random person's post on a messageboard, who has the audacity to call the masses "wrong"?
 
Feb 10, 2018
17,534
There's quite a few salty gta/R* haters on here, biting there lip and on the verge of tears because there are people who love R*'s games.

Must suck for these ppl, especially because R* aren't going away anytime soon and neither are there excellent review scores or sales records.

This is like saying, "just because ps4 sold 100 million does not mean its a good console!!"
 

SofNascimento

cursed
Member
Oct 28, 2017
21,258
São Paulo - Brazil
The latter is largely irrelevant to a discussion, though.

That depends on the discussion. If we are judging the merits of a game in their own right, yes, I think bringing up sales is totally irrelevant. But if we discussing why a developer keeps doing something that seems detrimental to the quality of a game then sales might be the only possible explanation.
 

ThousandEyes

Banned
Sep 3, 2019
1,388
There's quite a few salty gta/R* haters on here, biting there lip and on the verge of tears because there are people who love R*'s games.

Must suck for these ppl, especially because R* aren't going away anytime soon and neither are there excellent review scores or sales records.

This is like saying, "just because ps4 sold 100 million does not mean its a good console!!"
Yeah.... I honestly feel like Rockstar is the most divisive high profile developer here. People love them or hate them. Like every famous developer has there detractors but not like R*. Like people get legit angry when a rockstar game is praised it's quite odd
 

kiaaa

Member
Oct 27, 2017
2,839
That depends on the discussion. If we are judging the merits of a game in their own right, yes, I think bringing up sales is totally irrelevant. But if we discussing why a developer keeps doing something that seems detrimental to the quality of a game then sales might be the only possible explanation.

I don't think anyone really believes their criticism on era is going to reach developers.
 

Richter1887

Banned
Oct 27, 2017
39,146
Agreed.

It is like eating McDonalds. It is very succesful but that doesn't mean that it is the best burger around.

There is an argument to be made for why it is eaten by most people (including me) but that doesn't mean criticism is pointless.
 

Toxi

The Fallen
Oct 27, 2017
17,546
Predatory microtransactions are actually completely okay because they make money.
 

Champion

Banned
Oct 28, 2017
2,888
Tampa, FL
This is what people do when they're unable to articulate their thoughts or reasons behind their opinion. Ignore status.
 
OP
OP
Lant_War

Lant_War

Classic Anus Game
The Fallen
Jul 14, 2018
23,538
JSR not coming back is more because of music licensing than it is sales, from what I can tell
Music for a new one wouldn't be an issue, though. I'd say that JSRHD bombing when it launched at a super reduced price sealed the fate of a new JSR for a while.

There's quite a few salty gta/R* haters on here, biting there lip and on the verge of tears because there are people who love R*'s games.

Must suck for these ppl, especially because R* aren't going away anytime soon and neither are there excellent review scores or sales records.

This is like saying, "just because ps4 sold 100 million does not mean its a good console!!"
Yes I'm a Rockstar hater that has RDR2 as their game of the generation. You got me bud.
 

Ryu

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
2,316
But they don't believe it when people say that Let's go Pikachu and Eevee were great games!
 

skeezx

Member
Oct 27, 2017
20,119
can make sense to point out that, hey, there's ten millions of joe six packs out there that enjoy the thing you hate, thus why it is what it is

depends on context i guess
 

Firmament1

Member
Aug 15, 2019
1,287
I see people talking about Metascore as a defense more often than sales, but damn, is it annoying either way.
 

kiaaa

Member
Oct 27, 2017
2,839
We do have a lot of developers that visit the site, so if you consider that. But anyway, I don't see the point you're trying to make. Discussing about a game isn't about trying to change it.

Then where do sales numbers come into play in a discussion? They're completely irrelevant.

It Happens though. People wonder why rockstar doesn't change there mission design. Well I wonder why

It's easier not to change and their games are basically guaranteed hits regardless of quality. That's the reality of the situation.
 

KillLaCam

Prophet of Truth
Member
Oct 25, 2017
15,382
Seoul
Yeah but the companies have less of a reason to care about the criticism as long as it's still selling well. Like complaining a ton about R* stories and writing isn't gonna do anything. They've figured out what their massive target playerbases like and not really have to worry about getting people who wouldn't play anyway
 

Calvarok

Member
Oct 26, 2017
3,218
im personally more tired of the angle of "but it doesnt sell well" to dismiss positivity. there are plenty of unappreciated gems in any artform.
 

Mr_F_Snowman

Member
Oct 27, 2017
3,877
There's quite a few salty gta/R* haters on here, biting there lip and on the verge of tears because there are people who love R*'s games.

Must suck for these ppl, especially because R* aren't going away anytime soon and neither are there excellent review scores or sales records.

This is like saying, "just because ps4 sold 100 million does not mean its a good console!!"

Funny thing is people say stuff like that all the time about the Wii.....
 

Deleted member 11413

User requested account closure
Banned
Oct 27, 2017
22,961
They are unrelated. You can't dismiss criticism by invoking sales numbers, but criticism also doesn't invalidate the sales/popularity of said thing.

Mediocre stuff gets popular all the time. For one, mediocrity is subjective. Second, sometimes things that you don't like or don't think are good will still be popular. Unless said thing is legitimately harmful in some way, get over it.
 

TheRulingRing

Banned
Apr 6, 2018
5,713
Yeah.... I honestly feel like Rockstar is the most divisive high profile developer here. People love them or hate them. Like every famous developer has there detractors but not like R*. Like people get legit angry when a rockstar game is praised it's quite odd

Rockstar isn't divisive - it's almost universally loved and seen as the pinnacle of game development.

The only places it's "divisive" are hardcore corners of the internet.
 
Feb 10, 2018
17,534
Yeah.... I honestly feel like Rockstar is the most divisive high profile developer here. People love them or hate them. Like every famous developer has there detractors but not like R*. Like people get legit angry when a rockstar game is praised it's quite odd


I mean I don't get why people go into threads and criticise games, what do they think is going to happen.. When the majority love it, do they think its going to lead to some "constructive debate" lol, or do they just want to shit on some one else's parade. Its very odd behaviour.
 

Richter1887

Banned
Oct 27, 2017
39,146
I mean I don't get why people go into threads and criticise games, what do they think is going to happen.. When the majority love it, do they think its going to lead to some "constructive debate" lol, or do they just want to shit on some one else's parade. Its very odd behaviour.
You are on a forum.

Isn't a forum a place to debate and talk about something?
 

kiaaa

Member
Oct 27, 2017
2,839
I mean I don't get why people go into threads and criticise games, what do they think is going to happen.. When the majority love it, do they think its going to lead to some "constructive debate" lol, or do they just want to shit on some one else's parade. Its very odd behaviour.

People don't always agree with the majority. They're called the minority and they're allowed to talk, too.

Besides, if the majority loves a game, does it really need a defense force every time it gets criticized?
 

Remo Williams

Self-requested ban
Banned
Jan 13, 2018
4,769
"Many people like it the way it is" is a legitimate answer to "This should be different because I don't like it".
 

Mik317

Member
Oct 25, 2017
8,775
"but it sells" isn't dismissing criticism; it is stating that a lot of people enjoys the thing for what ever reason and thats enough reason for its existence; flaws and all.

this idea that some opinions matter more than others is what actually dampers discussion. So much criticism starts with "this thing is shit" and thats a good way to stifle any conversation because those who like it take it as you are saying they like shit...and thus the disconnect. And thus "but it sells doe" is floated out there as a comeback.

we all could stand to not take everything so serious but thats life for ya lol.
 

whiteninja

One Winged Slayer
The Fallen
Oct 27, 2017
1,794
Marketing can do a lot when it comes to sales. FFXV sold a lot but was one of the worst in the series.
 

foxuzamaki

One Winged Slayer
Member
Oct 25, 2017
21,546
Rockstar isn't divisive - it's almost universally loved and seen as the pinnacle of game development.

The only places it's "divisive" are hardcore corners of the internet.
Idk if they are seen as the pinnacle of game development... I mean they make fantastic worlds and give tons of options of things to do but I do hear people talk about actual gameplay much
 

Deleted member 11413

User requested account closure
Banned
Oct 27, 2017
22,961
I mean I don't get why people go into threads and criticise games, what do they think is going to happen.. When the majority love it, do they think its going to lead to some "constructive debate" lol, or do they just want to shit on some one else's parade. Its very odd behaviour.
This is an extremely odd thing to post on a discussion forum...