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Dreamboum

Member
Oct 28, 2017
22,865
EDIT : Since no one knows how to read, let me TL;DR this

  • This is not defending Konami as a corporation, quite the opposite
  • We need to be more effective at punching at the top execs at Konami instead of punching down
  • Konami employees who aren't calling the shots are artists and creators that doesn't deserve any additional abuse than what they're living at work
  • If you're ready to forgive Konami if they somehow made good games, then you ultimately don't care about the employees
  • Organize better instead of following influencers who is just ready to punch on anything to have this image of "telling it like it is"
_________

The MGS5/Konami controversy has opened the flood gates of insults and abuse that some known youtube influencers based their whole identity upon for their performative acts. But it was all fun and games because there was no one to pin it on, the company was faceless. It's always easy to throw abuse at someone you don''t know.

But now, we know.

The credits of Metal Gear Survive has revealed what we all know but refused to acknowledge. Not everyone left Konami to join KojiPro, far from it. The amount of veteran Metal Gear staff still working on Survive is nothing short of astounding, and their talent are still visible. They have put their best to put a good game. You may or may not like it, but they clearly aren't a newly hired staff just fumbling on the series, these are talented people who worked on the series for years, some for decades and are still putting hard work into a game.

Are we so much against Konami that we cannot recognize that ? Are we all going to tacitly imply that Kojima made everything ? This is not true. The staff made him. They made the realization of his vision possible. It's time we acknowledge this.

Konami is a company with documented evidence of horrible treatment of their employees, but what people has been doing is *not* attacking Konami, but the people who works there. The ones who made your favorite games are the ones who are made to suffer the most under the abuse they are receiving, while the suits are the ones who are racking in the money without even having a whiff of your complaints. You're not being in service of the plight of the people who works there if they are the one on the receiving end of your wrath.

I have recently tweeted that Masahiro Ito, a designer and one of the faces of the Silent Hill series (he did SH2's Pyramid Head) worked on creature design for Metal Gear Survive, that he retweeted in turn. I could see all the answers and the quotes to the tweet. "A job's a job" "All I can say is it's not his fault it's shit.", and we didn't even know what his designs looked like in the first place! Fortunately some were positive, some were surprised it has been the return of a legend to Konami after several years. But the discussion shouldn't even be about this, like Survive is a parasite and that no good thing would come from it.

Let's rethink this. Let's ask for the people who are trying to fan the flames of the people's hatred to grow up and have a reasonable view of how to make your voice heard without resorting to abuse. It has been 2 years now, and some are still using this same hashtag unironically without reconsidering who it's aimed at. It's time we think about the people who made our games as actual people, and hold them in higher regards than them being Kojima's minions, or evil people that needs to be struck down for daring to touch Metal Gear.

You don't scream at the McDonald's cashier for the company's shitty business practices. If you cared about the people you would send e-mails, letters organize protests for better working conditions, you try to help the employees. Do the same for Konami, and stop enabling the people that thrives on the abuse of honest, hard-working people.

Because they don't care about them, they never did.
 
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Lukemia SL

Member
Jan 30, 2018
9,384
It's their treatment of Kojima and stripping his name from his body of work which is a problem for me. Also those darned pachinko machines.
 

SolVanderlyn

I love pineapple on pizza!
Member
Oct 28, 2017
13,509
Earth, 21st Century
You`re right, but the company cut consumers too deeply with their treatment of Kojima for most people to bother to think critically about the issue.
 

Deleted member 19218

User requested account closure
Banned
Oct 27, 2017
4,323
Agreed.

It's a difficult time to be an MGS fan. On one hand Konami are terrible but when we say Konami we should define that as upper management in the game division and not the lower level employees. Some of these people are passionate and it's best we don't just paint everyone in Konami as souless.

Hideo and Yuji have a face to their name so we care about them, we don't know the other members so it's probably easy for people to just outright dismiss them.
 

Hailinel

Shamed a mod for a tag
Member
Oct 27, 2017
35,527
It's their treatment of Kojima and stripping his name from his body of work which is a problem for me. Also those darned pachinko machines.
Kojima had enough power within Konami at a point that I don't think he's entirely blameless for the situation within the company. Besides that, he's off at his own new studio getting Sony bucks to make Death Stranding now. There are a lot of Konami employees that worked under him that are still there and that worked on Survive.
 

Aadiboy

Member
Nov 4, 2017
3,652
I haven't seen any vitriol against staff, it seems to be more done towards Konami in general. Now, if people are bashing on devs, then yeah, that's messed up. If you're saying we should support the devs by buying the game then...nah, I disagree. If people don't want to support a game because they dislike the company's business practices or don't like the game, then they have the right to do so.
 

Amiibola

Banned
Oct 29, 2017
2,255
You know, Konami is not treated like shit only because Kojima. Far from it
 
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Cybersai

Banned
Jan 8, 2018
11,631
Nah, fuck Konami. Unless they release a Castlevania collection or something, I'm done with them.
 

SolVanderlyn

I love pineapple on pizza!
Member
Oct 28, 2017
13,509
Earth, 21st Century
I haven't seen any vitriol against staff, it seems to be more done towards Konami in general. Now, if people are bashing on devs, then yeah, that's messed up.
It`s not so much that people bash the devs - they`re probably widely considered innocent, if anything - but that the Konami logo incites enough ire to call their game shit, give it low scores, and dismiss it at best, causing all of their hard labor to go out the window or, at the worst, be actively shit upon.
 

JosephL64

Member
Oct 25, 2017
469
Houston
I always found the "fuck Konami" movement to be somewhat childish. Yes Konami has some serious problems, but it's been years, and time for people to move on.

Them changing their focus away from console games back then is just business as well.

In the end, I'll judge their games based on their own merit. If they're good then I'll pick them up, if not then...not. It really isn't that complicated of an issue for me.

Hopefully the situation at Konami has improved or will improve, but this attitude just hurts the teams still there.
 

PlanetSmasher

The Abominable Showman
Member
Oct 25, 2017
115,776
Honestly, I'm not even mad at Konami anymore. More damningly, I just don't care about them.

They have nothing to offer me as a publisher, and their developers aren't releasing anything notable. Would I be happy if they somehow started making good games again? Absolutely! I would be ecstatic if we got a good Castlevania game again or if they hired Murayama back to finish the Suikoden series. Or if they gave a Japanese team the time and budget to make a new Silent Hill. Or if they brought Platinum back to make Metal Gear Rising 2.

But it's been a long time since they've expressed any desire to do anything of the sort, and the Survive beta was such an awful mess I couldn't even play it for more than an hour before I just needed to stop and do anything else.

Like so many fallen studios before them, I miss Konami. But as of right now, they occupy about as much of my brain space as THQ or Volition.
 

Warbear

User requested self-ban.
Banned
Feb 2, 2018
192
Look, those people insulting Konami are lost causes, don't put to much energy into them. If the game is good, support it and if it's bad, let's hope that it doesn't do well and Konami learns from it.
 

duckroll

Member
Oct 25, 2017
11,209
Singapore
Who is "we" though? I bought Super Bombman R. I'll buy any game they put out that I'm actually interested in. I'm not interested in Metal Gear Survive because it doesn't even seem like Konami's marketing theme has much confidence in the game. It looks like a game that doesn't have much support from the publisher and there isn't a large target audience. It's possible to buy both Konami games and Kojima games!
 
Oct 25, 2017
29,505
Honestly as far as Metal Gear goes,
Kojima & Konami's blame off set each other personally.

Now Konami with Silent Hill & Castlevania is another thing entirely.
 

lolilolailo

Member
Oct 27, 2017
831
The situation should be the same even if the game wasn't full of veterans. A new dev deserves the same respect as everyone else, be it a veteran or even Kojima himself. People are working hard to get the game done and it's not the devs fault the company does those shitty practices.

Anyway I also found the #FucKonami campaign a bit cringe and tiring tbh. I understand the anger from the fans, but it went a bit too far imo.
 

Deleted member 8001

user requested account closure
Banned
Oct 26, 2017
7,440
Konami absolutely deserves all the crap it's gotten and continues to get. Turning their game devs into janitors? They can fuck off with that.
 

SilentAnthem

Member
Oct 27, 2017
23
Letting hatred towards a company fester inside you does nothing to improve your life.
It's better to just walk away from situations that make you mad, rather than building up bigotries and prejudices about an abstract business entity.
 

Warbear

User requested self-ban.
Banned
Feb 2, 2018
192
Also, the majority of hate is from western people and even then it's only a small group. No notable Japanese or East Asian influencer has came out and said F*** Konami. People live in bubbles and disregard other people's opinions.

Letting hatred towards a company fester inside you does nothing to improve your life.

Pretty much this. I remember a number of people here was laughing at EA wiping 3 billion off its stocks despite the fact Andrew Wilson probably went home with a 1-20 million pay check at the end of the day.

Hating these people ain't going to change your situation.
 

DGenerator

Member
Oct 26, 2017
1,922
Toronto, ON, Canada
So quickly people forget Kojima's figurative chaining to his desk in a room separate from his team, Konami blacklisting former Kojima Productions employees in Japan and Konami not allowing Kojima to show up at The Game Awards for his award.
 

AceofSpades

Banned
Oct 27, 2017
300
No beef with Konami but Im not supporting Survive simply because it doesn't interest me at all.
MGS franchise is ruined after 4. they should have stopped then.
 

Noisepurge

Member
Oct 25, 2017
8,490
Fuck konami, i bet its just some exec there who told them to crank out a lazy zombie shooter instead of something original.
 

DarkDetective

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
4,906
The Netherlands
Well, Konami's treatment of Kojima is just the Japanese law regarding firing employees in action, so I don't understand the hatred towards them.

I think a lot of people are not informed about Japanese law (just assume it's the same as in their own country) and they're probably very salty that Konami turned into a mobile game company. Yes, it sucks, but how just is it to to insult Konami in the harshest ways possible over two years?
 

RulkezX

Member
Oct 27, 2017
1,342
Unless some of the staff are being personally attacked on sociall media , I don't see how "fuck Konami" is attacking the people who work there.
 

liquidtmd

Avenger
Oct 28, 2017
6,134
Honestly, I'm not even mad at Konami anymore. More damningly, I just don't care about them.

Yeah I'm here and this rings true.

They were one of my teenage year favourites in the '90's. Silent Hill and Metal Gear got me through the 2000's with Konami still in mind.

I was mad at them six years ago in 2012 with the launch of the Silent Hill HD collection and the fact they'd just stopped being the company they once were.

That anger has gone now. I just don't care.
 

Wulfric

Member
Oct 25, 2017
5,967
No thanks. They chose the path they are on, and they are still raking in millions with health clubs and GaaS services. They'll do just fine without the traditional console gamer.

Yu-Gi-Oh TCG/OCG has been a mess for years, thanks to their greed and lack of concern for the secondary market.

Best of luck to the developers and artists to finding new pastures, if they desire.
 

Deleted member 2254

user requested account closure
Banned
Oct 25, 2017
21,467
Most level-headed people have been saying as much. Videogames are not the work of one genius man, it's usually the combination of dozens, hundreds of great minds, programmers, artists who create something unique. No, Kojima did not come up with every single bonkers idea for Metal Gear, and he sure as shit didn't create the quality gameplay the game is known for. If MGSV is considered one of the best triple-A games in terms of gameplay, that is on the brilliant programmers who created a lovely control scheme that "just feels right". Konami executives treated Kojima like shit. Kojima wasn't exactly the spotless white knight either, but for the sake of the argument let's assume it was 100% Konami's fault - it's still on a couple execs, and has nothing to do with the other parts of the team who actually made the games you know and love. Nobody is forcing anyone to like or dislike anything, but harassing and shitting on current Konami games because some execs didn't treat Kojima properly is just lame. Look at Survive's credit list and check out how many great programmers, composers, etc. worked on it before going "lulz #fuckonami" just because some drama queen YouTuber told you so.

Gaming is toxic for these very behaviours. People act like entire companies are made of one people who makes decisions, regardless of role changes, shifts in direction, etc.. Konami is forever shit because they pushed out Kojima. Rime is forever shit because Sony dropped it and they used Denuvo. Microsoft is forever shit and anti-PC because they've made GFWL more than a decade ago. No corporation is your friend, but that doesn't mean that one wrong (or perceived wrong) is reason to be toxic towards an entire company. You want to hurt their paycheck because you don't like their decisions or have been swayed by YouTubers literally living off hate videos. Well guess what, those execs who caused your anger will still get their 5-6 figure salaries. If they're fired, they get a lofty exit bonus. You know who really pays when you share negativity for no reason on a game that will then sell shit based on preconceptions and misinformation? The actual developers you so love for having made your favourite games. They're the ones who end up on the streets. Kojima will always find a studio to rebound too, and the execs will land somewhere else. The toxic behaviour will be felt the most by the actual devs.

So stop with the fucking toxicity. We want gaming to be a better place. Most of us agree that Gamergate was trash. And yet here we are, harassing games, shitting on developers, boycotting entire companies because of the silliest reasons. It says a lot about the gaming community that Battlefront 2 lootboxes (as egregious as they were) had a far bigger impact than actual harassments in Quantic Dream. EA lost tons of money in the former, do you think Detroid will sell even 1000 copies less because of their toxic environment? At the end of the day, voting with your wallet is fair game: don't like something, don't buy it. There are many companies I don't support, but I don't go around harassing their employees or shit on them in every thread, because at the end of the day a lot of great people probably worked on those products, and if things change for the better I'm glad to support that. Don't like Konami? Feel free not to buy Survive. But stop with the harassment, the #FucKonami shit, stop giving views to clickbaiting hater YouTubers and trying being a positive change for gaming. It really isn't that difficult.
 

Deleted member 19218

User requested account closure
Banned
Oct 27, 2017
4,323
Also, the majority of hate is from western people and even then it's only a small group. No notable Japanese or East Asian influencer has came out and said F*** Konami. People live in bubbles and disregard other people's opinions.

Yeah. People love Konami's baseball mobile game, their pachinko machines and their gyms in Japan.
 
Oct 25, 2017
3,240
The F*** Konami stuff was always childish and cringey. They barely make games anymore anyways, don't see how you can be that mad at them.
 

Ratrat

User requested ban
Banned
Oct 27, 2017
1,867
Honestly, I'm not even mad at Konami anymore. More damningly, I just don't care about them.
Basically. The game is going to underperform big time. Most people just don't care. I doubt anyone is thinking the game looks cool but their undying fanboy rage prevents them from playing it.
 

Epilexia

Member
Jan 27, 2018
2,675
Completely agree, I feel really bad for the Survive team. The game is not a hack, some really good ideas put into it.

Konami has traditionally made these things. They also removed the name of Yoshitaka Murayama from 'Suikoden III', after he left the company at the end of the development of the game. They always had this same policy regarding credits in the games. But I have never read any criticism about this before the situation with Kojima.
 

bulletyen

Member
Nov 12, 2017
1,309
While I feel bad for its developers and employees in the trenches, I find no reason to support Konami anymore. The suits have fucked it all up, and they have no vision for their games, what's left of them anyway.

Look at Konami. Castlevania, Silent Hill, Metal Gear, Suikoden, Contra, their arcade beat em ups... They have some of the greatest medium defining games in every genre... Works of art. And now all they care about is Pachinko, Gyms, and GaaS, all designed to solicit repeat spending from consumers.

When I say Fuck Konami, I mean the corporate suits. I'm sorry there are still talented hard working people there, but I'm a consumer, not a charity. MGS survive is a cash grab, a total conversion mod at best without the vision of the man who helmed the series since it's inception. I want nothing to do with it, even if there are veteran salary men who need to keep families fed working on it. And while sometimes too much credit goes to people who aren't entirely responsible for making something great, one look at MGS survive and Death Stranding tells me where all the creative force has gone...

(If death Stranding sucks in the end then shame on me)
 

____

Member
Oct 27, 2017
10,734
Miami, FL
Eh, I get what you're saying but honestly it's not just Konami (we hear Fuck EA and Fuck Activision all the time).

I'll never personally support Konami and not solely because of Kojima's treatment at end. I'm still bitter about -everything- surrounding MGSV. Every last bit of it. The bitching about budget when the game went on to sell gangbusters (as MGS titles always do). The incomplete story and laughable handling of it. The thrown away Chapter 3 they rubbed in our faces. The fucking "real time" development of weapons and items. MB coins? Chapter 2 being previously played missions with new restrictions? Fuck outta here. I've never in all my years seen such potential wasted so casually and a company metaphorically spit in the face of lifelong fans of a franchise.

If they were putting out games people wanted then, shitty business practices aside, the tune would be a lot different.

I don't support Sprint because of shitty tactics and shitty consumer practices so it's also Fuck Sprint. But that doesn't mean fuck their non-exec employees. I feel sorry for them, as I do with Konami.
 

Blackbird

Unshakable Resolve - Prophet of Truth
Member
Oct 25, 2017
5,479
Brazil
Yeah really, i don't even know why people hates this company, they didn't even do anything wrong in the first place.



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Seriously tho, no one should condemn anyone else for liking a game. If Metal Gear Survive is actually good then it deserves its own merits, but i think we're going too far while starting defending Konami itself. It gets even sillier to watch a some people bashing on Kojima because of what happened with V and even using him as an excuse to blame everything else.

I do understand that there are very talented developers actually trying insde there, but it won't simply make everything bad go away for many fans. If their line is crossed when everything i showed above happened, you really shouldn't bother to defend a multimillionaire company, they're doing fine and it depends on each individual to choose its own limits.
 

Lukemia SL

Member
Jan 30, 2018
9,384
Kojima had enough power within Konami at a point that I don't think he's entirely blameless for the situation within the company. Besides that, he's off at his own new studio getting Sony bucks to make Death Stranding now. There are a lot of Konami employees that worked under him that are still there and that worked on Survive.

Maybe they're under contract, maybe they're there because they like their jobs, or don't want to relocate out of convenience for there families or current situations or see no other opportunities elsewhere. Not everyone was going to follow Kojima to his next endeavour.
Konami's company shift was more in line with mobile gaming, Kojima's was not. I'm not about to change the way I feel about Konami just because some people still work for them.
 

Bjoern

Member
Oct 26, 2017
626
Germany
Konami killed off almost all of my favorite franchises just so they can make more Metal Gear and more Pachinko.

Gradius is dead.
Parodius is dead.
Silent Hill is dead.
Castlevania is dead.
Goemon is dead.
Metal Gear has literally become a zombie.
I'm surprised their Bemani team is still alive.
Bomberman has been revived, but only thanks to Nintendo, and I'm sure that, unless Nintendo moneyhats a sequel to Bomberman R, that franchise will soon be dead once again.
And let's not forget the many times Konami has been treating their own workers and even contracted actors like trash.

So no, unless Konami is doing a complete 180, I won't change the way I lash out at them. Because fuck them.
 

Sakujou

Banned
Oct 28, 2017
290
this is what i have been saying all the time.
everyone only sees kojima, but not the rest.
i find this unfair. yes, konami treats their employees shit, but does that mean everything will be shit if kojima is not on board anymore?

everyone is only shitting on konami, because kojima left and took some staff member with him.

on the old forum everyone tried to defend this,... but keep in mind that kojima never made a game within the deadline. he made soundtracks only to kill them later on. he seemed to be a very bad boss, but is still universally loved by his fans. should we hate kojima for that? its his job. he made good games, but it was never only him alone, but his whole team.

i find this very unfair to hype up only one person and shittalk a whole company.

i like konami because of their past and they still maintain games such as IIDX, reflec beat and jubeat.
 
Oct 25, 2017
2,259
The big population of gamers can be quite pathetic and don't articulate any business sense or the guys/girls who make these games in the first place. Meanwhile they circlejerk companies like Nintendo who have in the past and present have anti consumer business practices but give passes because of admiration and sentimentality bullshit.
 

Segafreak

Member
Oct 27, 2017
2,756
The "Fuckonami" movement and the blind Kojima defending ever since is one of the dumbest thing I've seen in gaming.

They wouldn't do that to a giant Western pub, and we don't know whether Kojima was also at fault. He likely was but let's just shit on Konami anyway because PACHINKO. In fact, the reason I see Konami leaving AAA gaming is because they got scared shitless about the new gen development costs seeing how much MGS5 was costing them, a bare-bones MGS game that's not even finished.
 

Ratrat

User requested ban
Banned
Oct 27, 2017
1,867
The "Fuckonami" movement and the blind Kojima defending ever since is one of the dumbest thing I've seen in gaming.

They wouldn't do that to a giant Western pub, and we don't know whether Kojima was also at fault. He likely was but let's just shit on Konami anyway because PACHINKO. In fact, the reason I see Konami leaving AAA gaming is because they got scared shitless about the new gen development costs seeing how much MGS5 was costing them, a bare-bones MGS game that's not even finished.
Is this a joke? You pretty much see nothing but hate for big western pubs like EA on the internet.
 

Rust

Member
Jan 24, 2018
1,225
Not saying that Konami haven't done some epically stupid things, but I really enjoyed Bomberman on Switch, and the Castlevania Netflix anime.

Their working conditions can certainly be improved tho.