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I've Decided Kojima Is The Most Overrated Popular Game Developer And It Started Going Downhill With MGS3

Is Kojima Overrated?

  • Yes

    Votes: 1,146 35.8%

  • No

    Votes: 1,507 47.1%

  • Slightly agree

    Votes: 546 17.1%
  • Total voters
    3,199

Deleted member 35509

Account closed at user request
Banned
Dec 6, 2017
6,335
Weekend Era warning - this is just MY opinion!

How I judge a game: first and foremost, GAMEPLAY is king, story comes second. Example: gameplay rocks but the story is dumb as hell, I skip cutscenes sometimes but still love the game (like FF7 Remake or Bayonetta). Opposite holds true, if the gameplay is bad but the story is awesome, I'll probably try but usually skip the game.

For Kojima, MGS2 left a sour taste in my mouth. It was insane and weird but it didn't offend my story senses like MGS3. I was excited to play the next chapter, got the game on release.

Start the game and LITERALLY seconds after Snake lands in a tree (I think, I forget the details), we get expository dialogue vomit and the rush of playing a new game is gone. You sit there for 10 minutes in a Codec call and learn about some life or history lesson or something. It gets worse as the game goes on.

I knew then Kojima only surrounded himself with "yes" men/women and had no idea how to put exposition into dialogue so he didn't do it, he just had the characters puke up paragraphs of history or life lessons. It probably made him feel smarter? The dialogue in the finale with Big Boss was grueling.

MG4, some neat cutscenes in a game featuring some really sexist shit hidden by mountains of exposition. Like 3 hours of actual gameplay.

MGS5, probably the BEST gameplay of the series and my favorite MGS (minus the character of Quiet, what a joke) because I think by the end, he was more hands off. It benefited the game.

Death Stranding...literally jugs of exposition with almost no dialogue. One of the most unbearable games I've ever played. Gameplay was interesting but hardly there in comparison to the amount of exposition that came out of every single characters mouth. Almost non-stop.

Please be gentle Era, I just had to get this out of my system.
 
PlanetSmasher

PlanetSmasher

The Abominable Showman
Member
Oct 25, 2017
115,747
You're probably going to get a lot of pushback on this, but...I kind of agree. Kojima was at his best when he had limits to what he was allowed to do. He's been a shadow of his former creative self in recent years who seems more obsessed with Hollywood and Hollywood actors than ever, and I don't think cramming as many names into his games as he possibly can makes them better games.
 
Dest

Dest

Has seen more 10s than EA ever will
Coward
Jun 4, 2018
14,057
Work
Wild to say when people like Neil Druckmann and Ken Levine exist.
 
SketchDog

SketchDog

Member
Nov 25, 2021
2,668
Toronto
I don't like any of Kojima's games. I liked metal gear 1 and 2 when I was a kid but don't really like that type of game anymore. I don't pay attention to anything he does.
 
Cordy

Cordy

Member
Oct 25, 2017
15,351
And you had the nerve to say this with a Yamato avy. You should be ashamed for disgracing Yamato like this.
 
r_rose

r_rose

Member
Mar 1, 2022
1,420
Dy3IVhH.jpeg
 
Uzumaki Goku

Uzumaki Goku

One Winged Slayer
Member
Oct 27, 2017
19,296
Im A Hero Too said:
Weekend Era warning - this is just MY opinion!

How I judge a game: first and foremost, GAMEPLAY is king, story comes second. Example: gameplay rocks but the story is dumb as hell, I skip cutscenes sometimes but still love the game (like FF7 Remake or Bayonetta). Opposite holds true, if the gameplay is bad but the story is awesome, I'll probably try but usually skip the game.

For Kojima, MGS2 left a sour taste in my mouth. It was insane and weird but it didn't offend my story senses like MGS3. I was excited to play the next chapter, got the game on release.

Start the game and LITERALLY seconds after Snake lands in a tree (I think, I forget the details), we get expository dialogue vomit and the rush of playing a new game is gone. You sit there for 10 minutes in a Codec call and learn about some life or history lesson or something. It gets worse as the game goes on.

I knew then Kojima only surrounded himself with "yes" men/women and had no idea how to put exposition into dialogue so he didn't do it, he just had the characters puke up paragraphs of history or life lessons. It probably made him feel smarter? The dialogue in the finale with Big Boss was grueling.

MG4, some neat cutscenes in a game featuring some really sexist shit hidden by mountains of exposition. Like 3 hours of actual gameplay.

MGS5, probably the BEST gameplay of the series and my favorite MGS (minus the character of Quiet, what a joke) because I think by the end, he was more hands off. It benefited the game.

Death Stranding...literally jugs of exposition with almost no dialogue. One of the most unbearable games I've ever played. Gameplay was interesting but hardly there in comparison to the amount of exposition that came out of every single characters mouth. Almost non-stop.

Please be gentle Era, I just had to get this out of my system.
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I will say this... I think a lot of the co-writers for MGS1-3 helped keep Kojima in check.

Did you know he was originally going to end MGS4 with Snake and Otacon being executed but his staff refused to work on the game if it ended like that?
 

Manta_Breh

Member
May 16, 2018
2,539
I wouldnt call him overrated perse despite the fact that I thought MGS4 and MGS5 were not good games. MGS5 especially was a disaster ... Sure it had some good gameplay, but everything was an afterthought. The barren open world, the lack of any good story, the late game grind with repetition. Horrible failure on his part.

MGS4 was not what I expected, but I thought it was better than MGS 5 if you took it as a complete package.

Death Stranding was amazing though even though the story is peak kojima madness.


Kojima is a visionary imo and the gaming industry needs more people like him who take risks or introduces new stuff/mechanics. If Kojima quits gaming, it'll be a huge loss.
 
Sotha_Sil

Sotha_Sil

Member
Nov 4, 2017
5,067
Really disliked MGS4 and V. Somehow, Ground Zeroes was phenomenal for the bite-sized portion that it was. Never played Death Stranding or his earlier games.
 
CannonFodder52

CannonFodder52

Member
Oct 25, 2017
9,007
Canada
Death Stranding has tremendous gameplay and a very high percentage of the game was spent with that gameplay. Honestly probably my favorite experience with a AAA game last gen. So I have a hard time with the premise for this thread.
I feel like, even with my gripes for MGSV, the gameplay in that was also a highlight.
 
TheXbox

TheXbox

Prophet of Truth
Member
Oct 29, 2017
6,561
You can't just disqualify MGSV because you "think" he was more hands off. That game literally has his name all over it.
 
shintoki

shintoki

Member
Oct 25, 2017
15,118
For people putting him up on the Mount Rushmore of gaming next to greats like Mikami, Miyamoto, Suzuki, Carmack and others with multiple defining games? Yes. If we're talking about dudes riding a single franchise for as long as he has. Yes.

Dest said:
Wild to say when people like Neil Druckmann and Ken Levine exist.
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Levine worked on System Shock 2, SWAT 4, and Thief. Specifically being the lead design for System Shock 2. These are all considered all time great games in multiple genres.
 
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G_O

G_O

Member
Oct 28, 2017
1,960
MGS4 is about as fun as a toothache

although I liked death stranding and MGS1 quite a lot. I went for slightly agree
 
PlanetSmasher

PlanetSmasher

The Abominable Showman
Member
Oct 25, 2017
115,747
Dest said:
Wild to say when people like Neil Druckmann and Ken Levine exist.
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Ken Levine hasn't been relevant in a decade, and his new game looks like a carbon copy of the last one he made before this. I don't really think Ken Levine is overrated now. Maybe he was back when he was relevant, but nowadays nobody gives a shit about him.
 
Aerial51

Aerial51

Member
Apr 24, 2020
3,686
Death Stranding has like almost no cutscenes for about 50 hours playtime it only dumbs shit on you during the beginning and end. Also very brave and unique opinion thread we get a "This Game/Director is overrated" only every month.
 
Dreamboum

Dreamboum

Member
Oct 28, 2017
22,865
Your only issue is that you're critical of MGS2. MGS3 is downhill because it ruined the story of the series. It became an extended hug session with big boss "believe me this time it's his villain origin story" and it added absolutely nothing to the story.

MGS2 will always remain the conclusion of the series for me. MGS1 and 2 had done more to characterize Big Boss and his legacy through his sons than his origin story that lasted five games
 
Dest

Dest

Has seen more 10s than EA ever will
Coward
Jun 4, 2018
14,057
Work
PlanetSmasher said:
Ken Levine hasn't been relevant in a decade, and his new game looks like a carbon copy of the last one he made before this. I don't really think Ken Levine is overrated now. Maybe he was back when he was relevant, but nowadays nobody gives a shit about him.
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True. My brain is still stuck on that absolutely weird and wild high that people had off of Bioshock Infinite.
 
Watershed

Watershed

Member
Oct 26, 2017
7,820
OP, I think your argument is here's what I don't like about Kojima games, but that doesn't convince me that he's overrated. He has a very distinct creative voice, makes interesting games, and makes games that are both critically and commercially interesting. I don't like many of his games, but that doesn't discount his status and success as a game developer.
 
signal

signal

Member
Oct 28, 2017
40,199
Im A Hero Too said:
Start the game and LITERALLY seconds after Snake lands in a tree (I think, I forget the details), we get expository dialogue vomit and the rush of playing a new game is gone. You sit there for 10 minutes in a Codec call and learn about some life or history lesson or something. It gets worse as the game goes on.
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This opinion sucks
 
PlanetSmasher

PlanetSmasher

The Abominable Showman
Member
Oct 25, 2017
115,747
Dest said:
True. My brain is still stuck on that absolutely weird and wild high that people had off of Bioshock Infinite.
Click to expand...
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Yeah. During the Infinite era, when Levine was EVERYWHERE in the press, his importance was blown up something fierce.

Meanwhile, I think Kojima's been getting progressively hackier and hackier with every game he's released post-MGS3, with only the absolute crystalline gameplay of MGSV and Geoff Keighley's insane obsession keeping him afloat. Death Stranding was one of the most aggressive wastes of time I've ever played in my entire life, and I've played Genshin Impact for almost 300 hours.
 
ArchAngel

ArchAngel

Avenger
Oct 25, 2017
1,475
I thought the same of Death Stranding .. until it suddenly clicked after some years. Became one of the best gaming experiences I had in the last 35 years!
It's the time I began to respect him!
 
Arzak

Arzak

Member
Jun 21, 2019
206
I'm glad that he has enough power to make shit like Death Stranding and MGS5. We need more "auteurs" (especially in AAA space) not less.
 
HellofaMouse

HellofaMouse

Member
Oct 27, 2017
6,179
considering how much work goes into games, i think most of the big-name game directors are overrated.

kojima sure is at the top of that list though. he is an abysmal writer.
 
Ridley327

Ridley327

Member
Oct 25, 2017
14,490
Georgia (the state, not the country)
Dest said:
True. My brain is still stuck on that absolutely weird and wild high that people had off of Bioshock Infinite.
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That high lasted about all of two weeks before TLOU came out. Infinite might be the one game where the praise disappeared almost immediately after it released, and it's hard even now for backlash against a game to really drum up that much support in such a short amount of time in terms of decrying it outright.

Honestly, the one benefit that Infinite's backlash had was making people more aware that Bioshock 2 was, in fact, a pretty damn good game all along, with how much of a reappraisal it managed to get in response.
 
NotLiquid

NotLiquid

One Winged Slayer
Member
Oct 25, 2017
34,771
I don't think this is even that hot of a take. Steak's legendary 3 hour video on Metal Gear Solid 4 more or less opens with its first minute pointing out that the franchise wasn't the same after MGS3 and at the end of the video talks about the deification of him in the lead-up to Death Stranding.

Also, Metal Gear Solid V was definitely not Kojima being "hands-off". He's all over the game, if anything to the point that I'd argue he's probably the one most responsible for the game's failings. Everything from narrative, story, and structure was really mismanaged. In terms of pure direction, I'd say it's his weakest Metal Gear game, even if the game play itself is good.
 
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