J. Schreier: "Don't let billion dollar marketing convince you it's a spoiler" [See Threadmarks for further clarification]

jsnepo

Member
Oct 28, 2017
1,648
Why are devs expected to work on marketing though? Shouldn't it be the marketing department doing it?
 

IIFloodyII

Member
Oct 26, 2017
10,908
It’s their job? Leaking information that would go public in let’s say a few days just to take the spotlight and make a name for yourself? Nobody gaines anything with this except the leaker himself. Well, gaining, feeling good about themselves or whatever it is that drives them to do so.
Like what do some of you want them to write about instead of actual news? Just abunch of shitty "10 reasons you should super excited for E3" garbage? It's not their job to just market for the publishers, even if it's what most do anyway.
 

Mechaplum

Member
Oct 26, 2017
5,940
Without the developers consent? Then they're mere parasites.

Some journalism feeding off rumours, speculations and leaks.
I think in your mind you're thinking journalists sneak into a dev house under cover, grab some shaky videos and then profit millions from youtube impressions.
 

DeadlyVenom

Member
Apr 3, 2018
186
It is information that spoils the surprise and potentially lessens the intended impact of the reveal. It is a spoiler.

Obviously it is his job to share this information. But I'm not going to go along with the idea that it's unhealthy to enjoy surprises or be bummed by them being spoiled, just because companies are involved.
 

wafflebrain

Member
Oct 27, 2017
1,583
Like many, I can see where both sides are coming from, but ultimately I think I side with Jason.

Sure, it sucks for devs if their reveal isn't done how they wanted. I can totally get this argument.

But, for one, does it really harm them? And for two, if leaks are inevitable nowadays, perhaps it's time to adjust your marketing strategy?

According to this dev, yes it can and quite a bit cost wise:

  • Its a bummer for morale. You’re working hard, hoping that you’re gonna blow someones mind (we delight watching reaction posts or videos) and then because someone was an asshole or was careless your fans learn about it in a very unoptimal way and make assumptions
  • Strictly business? A lot of money can be lost by leaks. Not going to give you exact numbers but enough money to make you go HOLY FUCK WHAT
From this thread: https://www.resetera.com/threads/game-devs-of-resetera-how-do-leaks-impact-your-work.121723/#post-21563407
 

jsnepo

Member
Oct 28, 2017
1,648
The demos need to be developed. God of War's 10 minute E3 demo took a full year to develop for example.
So they worked a full year for a demo? I say use that one year to work on the game itself and not for something to show off as part of marketing. Leave the marketing to the marketing department.
 

Shroki

Member
Oct 27, 2017
2,690
For better or worse, E3 is about chasing the hype dragon. Big surprises are memorable and have the ability to make a new IP or change the narrative of a first party and how they're performing to hundreds of thousands-if not millions-of total viewers. In that respect, developers and publishers absolutely have a big investment in surprising us.

The press leaking stuff, presumably via intel they're getting from people who shouldn't be talking or are under NDA, isn't super cool. I don't think we should harass the press for doing their job, but I'd rather they fail at it tbh.
 

Armaros

Member
Oct 25, 2017
3,491
I’d care way more about game journalism as a whole of they completely dropped this part of their job. I wanna see game journalists report stuff like the THQ AMA and especially see them keeping the pressure on THQ to sort out the situation. I wanna see big stories on work environment and stuff like that, both good and bad. I want to see collected news about officially released info. I want to read personal anecdotes and opinion pieces.

The fact that they focus so much on leaks, especially close to the announcement, make me think less of the work and makes me not visit their sites much. It feels more like reading tabloid journalism. And it makes me sad.
You are saying this when the main topic of dicussions involves one of the major games journalits responilbe for so much hard-cutting investigative journalism?
 

Tzarscream

Member
Oct 28, 2017
2,565
I would love to see more games follow the RE2 route and announce development early and then make their content reveals a bit later on (although then you can get situations like Metroid Prime 4 where 'fans' scream that the game was announced way too early).

The leaking of actual marketing materials and trailers is disappointing though.


I get the point you're making but this isn't a great example considering the event has already happened during your media blackout.
Point still stands though, if E3 "spoilers" are such a cause of concern for you then avoid the places that are likely to spoil it.

I like watching E3 and I also like surprises, however unlike some, alot of conferences were during working hour or inconvenient times of the day as I don't live in the USA. Therefore during work I wasn't checking twitter, visiting Destructoid or Giant Bomb or The Guardian, I avoided it until I could get back and watch the conference after it had aired, and you know what? That approach pretty much always worked.
 

MilkBeard

Member
Oct 25, 2017
3,884
I can understand dev disappointment, but I ultimately agree with Jason, for the most part. Here I was yesterday saying "damn everything got leaked," but in the end, it doesn't matter, as my excitement for the games in question is the same whether it's a leak or an official reveal. I still haven't seen many of those games in action, so I'm still excited for it anyway.

I saw a Destiny streamer on Twitter ranting about how it was bad that people leaked the Destiny expansion image, and in the thread people were complaining that their reveal was "spoiled" and so on... Felt like shill behavior, and people complaining over "spoilers" to a reveal is silly.
 

Oopy Doopy

Member
May 9, 2019
115
Eh, the event itself is entertainment. Yes, it's marketing, but at the same time it's a celebration of the culture, in a way. It's almost like telling someone not to get excited at Disney World because you're getting nickel and dimed in the process. Having parts of the event leaked is like having a slice of cake but you're only taking a bite once every couple days. It's not nearly as enjoyable.
 

Shroki

Member
Oct 27, 2017
2,690
So they worked a full year for a demo? I say use that one year to work on the game itself and not for something to show off as part of marketing. Leave the marketing to the marketing department.
We're not talking about a commercial or a CG trailer for the most part. We're talking about gameplay.

It's not like the God of War team wasn't working on it. The demo section was more or less the second bit of gameplay you see while playing God of War.
 

Mashy

Member
Oct 28, 2017
810
Yea I agree. I dont see the big deal honestly. Yes it does suck for the developers who do deserve to get reactions to things they have developed for ages but does it really harm them in the long run if the reveal is amazing? Like if its underwhelming when its spoiled in advanced, its going to be underwhelming when it is shown officially. And vice versa.

People complaining about it should really not be visiting places where spoilers are likely to occur and just keep themselves to a blackout. Its their own fault they are spoiled.
 

Cokesouls

Member
Oct 28, 2017
1,048
Funny thing is these massive leaks mostly happen before E3. Sony was smart not to attend anymore. E3 is slowly dying and while I'll miss the conferences in the Future, it's really for the better.
 

Strelok

Member
Oct 29, 2017
668
Karnaca, Serkonos
Yeah no, I like being surprised when watching, when a trailer starts and you have no idea what it is about, it's great, I remember when lost legacy was announced, I was looking for clues during the trailer to identify the game and I went crazy when I saw Chloe
 

Stop It

Member
Oct 25, 2017
3,280
Leaks two days in advance are the worst of both worlds, though. You don't get the open communication or the surprise. Announcements of projects once they leave pre-production (I don't think you can go earlier than that with the rate of cancellation in this industry) would be nice, and dropping a trailer out of the blue sometime after that like most movies do would still be fun and would still be surprising. Mentioning a bunch of trailers we're going to see two days later doesn't really accomplish anything. The secrecy has problems, yes, but short term leaks don't solve any of them.
Oh I actually agree. By that point it's just trying to say "called it first". I think the point Jason is making is that we shouldn't be in this situation to begin with.

We should be excited by content, not confirming that something exists.
 

jsnepo

Member
Oct 28, 2017
1,648
We're not talking about a commercial or a CG trailer for the most part. We're talking about gameplay.

It's not like the God of War team wasn't working on it. The demo section was more or less the second bit of gameplay you see while playing God of War.
But that demo is still used for marketing. It was made for marketing.
 

SuperRaddy

Avenger
Oct 27, 2017
435
It’s pretty much exactly their job

Games journalism doesn’t need to be like that though. I am all up for games journalists to report on and discover bad practices in the industry and appreciate the hard work that Jason does there. Or for feature articles on relevant websites about games.

But I just can’t get behind games journalism to report on leaks two days before the event is meant to begin. It’s cheap lazy journalism really disrespecting the hard work of the developers/artist/marketing teams from revealing something how they wanted too.

This is not hardcore journalism reporting about X thing happening in the world to perform a public service. It’s a game reveal about a creation the 100’s/1000’s have tried their best to keep secret till the time they want to reveal
 

IIFloodyII

Member
Oct 26, 2017
10,908
So they worked a full year for a demo? I say use that one year to work on the game itself and not for something to show off as part of marketing. Leave the marketing to the marketing department.
Yes, E3 demo requires a lot of work, they have crunch too, as it's a pretty rock hard deadline, the marketing teams aren't developers, so they can't do it, they'll just use it when it's done. Why I can completely understand devs being pissed off by leaks, I certainly would be in their position.
 

GTVision

Member
Oct 28, 2017
244
A capitalist journalist with a vested interest in perpetuating leaks tells people that leaks are good and that those who don't like them are "unhealthy"?

I'm extremely shocked at this development!

Also it's funny how Era suddenly goes full Marxist as soon as spoiler-discussion comes up. Why is it that this example of being "capitalist stooges" is where you draw the line but not, say, the GOTY threads where we all vote on what game to advertise are? All of Gaming Side is capitalism; if you're here and taking the time to post then you're as much of a capitalist stooge as any "spoiler-phobe," and that goes for J Schreier's leaks as well. Just say you don't care lol, trying to make it into some moralistic thing is inherently hypocritical.

Oh and btw I made a Spoiler/Leak-Free E3 Thread for us unhealthy people here if you want :)
This so much, couldn’t have said it better myself.
 

Spyware

Member
Oct 26, 2017
1,229
Sweden
You are saying this when the main topic of dicussions involves one of the major games journalits responilbe for so much hard-cutting investigative journalism?
Yes? I don’t see the problem? I love what Schreier is doing for game journalism, most of the time. He’s one of very few people doing what I want game journalism to be. He’s also one of those reporting on leaks (and then getting mad that the publisher ”blacklisted” them) and I really disagree with his view on what leaks are and do to the industry.
So what’s the issue exactly?
 

jett

Community Resettler
Member
Oct 25, 2017
19,029
Couldn’t agree more. Such a weird thing for fans and consumers to get bent out of shape over. It’s not your job (or the media’s) to protect corporate marketing campaigns, it’s the job of those companies to either prevent or adapt to leaks. A good start would be not being so goddamn overly secretive, and feeding in to this shitty, often fanboy/console warrior driven thirst for “megaton announcements” and shitty press conference wars.

Like what does the fact that we know the fucking name of From’s next game and that GRRM is involved really spoil?

I know what Chris Nolan’s next movie is called. We when know who is in it. It’s not out for over a year. That’s not going to stop people from being hyped as fuck when the first trailer.

Game companies should stop treating their consumers like children, and video game enthusiasts should stop acting like children.
 

Tzarscream

Member
Oct 28, 2017
2,565
Games journalism doesn’t need to be like that though. I am all up for games journalists to report on and discover bad practices in the industry and appreciate the hard work that Jason does there. Or for feature articles on relevant websites about games.

But I just can’t get behind games journalism to report on leaks two days before the event is meant to begin. It’s cheap lazy journalism really disrespecting the hard work of the developers/artist/marketing teams from revealing something how they wanted too.

This is not hardcore journalism reporting about X thing happening in the world to perform a public service. It’s a game reveal about a creation the 100’s/1000’s have tried their best to keep secret till the time they want to reveal
So the main message here is I like Journalism but only when it suits my interests?
 

jviggy43

Member
Oct 28, 2017
14,590
Okay, it's not about it being a personal "spoiler". It's about how it changes how we experience it. It's a lot more fun when we're all at the big party and we see it together live for the very first time. That's a much cooler and a much different experience than just clicking on a website on the internet and seeing a thread title.

It doesn't ruin it. It doesn't spoil E3. But it does change it and make it different and a little less fun, at least for me, and a bunch of others here in this thread. I don't think it's unfair to feel a little disappointed that something leaked.
To the people who are worried that a leak would spoil something for them or alter their experience in an undesirable way, why are they frequenting forums like this near the time of E3, or this forum at all where leaks and rumors are always being posted year round? This is the thing I'll never understand about these types of concerns. If it means that much and people are that concerned how could you possibly justify browsing places that do exactly the very thing theyre trying to avoid? Seems like a lot of wanting to have their cake and eat it too.
 

signal

Member
Oct 28, 2017
19,929
Doesn't it depend on what leaks. A full trailer you were planning to show leaking is one thing but a certain game existing or a simple title is not worth getting upset over.
 

sfortunato

Member
Oct 25, 2017
4,758
Italy
Couldn’t agree more. Such a weird thing for fans and consumers to get bent out of shape over. It’s not your job (or the media’s) to protect corporate marketing campaigns, it’s the job of those companies to either prevent or adapt to leaks. A good start would be not being so goddamn overly secretive, and feeding in to this shitty, often fanboy/console warrior driven thirst for “megaton announcements” and shitty press conference wars.

Like what does the fact that we know the fucking name of From’s next game and that GRRM is involved really spoil?

I know what Chris Nolan’s next movie is called. We when know who is in it. It’s not out for over a year. That’s not going to stop people from being hyped as fuck when the first trailer.

Game companies should stop treating their consumers like children, and video game enthusiasts should stop acting like children.
It’s the hype culture. Many people want to be stimulated over and over and find more enjoyment in surprises and excitement than actually playing games.
 

iboshow

Member
Oct 27, 2017
627
User banned (1 week): inflammatory point of comparison
Schreier acting like his just doing his job, I'm sure a hitman can get away with killing by just saying it's his job. Leaks happen in every industry not just video games and I don't think there's anything wrong with them but don't act like you're doing this for nothing but personal reasons.
 

Clowns

Member
Oct 25, 2017
4,557
Yes, E3 demo requires a lot of work, they have crunch too, as it's a pretty rock hard deadline, the marketing teams aren't developers, so they can't do it, they'll just use it when it's done. Why I can completely understand devs being pissed off by leaks, I certainly would be in their position.
If these reveals are causing additional crunch then just leak absolutely everything until that stops.
 

Lyng

Writer at Joypad.dk
Verified
Oct 27, 2017
1,595
I dont think Apple Engineers go on twitter saying how sad they are that their lastest product got leaked by the press. Or people that buy smartphones saying "THINK ABOUT THE ENGINEERS NEXT TIME YOU LEAK".

Im sure they exist out in the ether of the internet, but they do not have any real voice like you see in the games community and the backlash about announcement leaks.
No there are very different ways to “punish” papers/sites/employees who leak these products.
 

Spoo

Member
Oct 25, 2017
1,770
I think it's kind of silly that some people here see the developers at these companies as a monolith; a lot of these companies have 500-600 people or more on the AAA projects. Simply put: devs are *not* in control of the flow of information throughout their studios. They hope they can control it, they incentive everyone playing ball, but at the end of the day if someone steps out of line then a leak happens.

I mean, it's cool when it all just works, and somehow a secret was kept, but this is the exception now and not the rule, so it's fucking weird to see journalists get singled out for being spoilers or whatever when the phone call is usually coming from inside the house anyway, y'know?

In short, if you're working on a AAA game, assuming you can keep that a secret in this industry is like thinking you can control the weather. If it does what you want, you just got lucky.
 

Naru

Member
May 11, 2019
292
As a gamer I would prefer having the information about a game coming out maybe 1 month before release.
 
Oct 25, 2017
3,324
It’s the hype culture. Many people want to be stimulated over and over and find more enjoyment in surprises and excitement than actually playing games.
frankly it's been obvious for a long time that there's a major demographic on era that cares much more about the drama around games than actually playing and enjoying games
 

jsnepo

Member
Oct 28, 2017
1,648
Yes, E3 demo requires a lot of work, they have crunch too, as it's a pretty rock hard deadline, the marketing teams aren't developers, so they can't do it, they'll just use it when it's done. Why I can completely understand devs being pissed off by leaks, I certainly would be in their position.
I say there is something wrong if it requires a full year of development with crunch probably to make a demo to show on stage. Don't do a demo. Just show a trailer or something.
 

Shroki

Member
Oct 27, 2017
2,690
But that demo is still used for marketing. It was made for marketing.
Tuning a section of gameplay to both work as a segment of a game and market the game to the most live eyes that will ever see it - and for the first time anyone is hearing of the game - is something only a developer can do, not a marketing department.
 

Plum

The Fallen
May 31, 2018
7,504

VeePs

Member
Oct 25, 2017
10,845
I dont think Apple Engineers go on twitter saying how sad they are that their lastest product got leaked by the press. Or people that buy smartphones saying "THINK ABOUT THE ENGINEERS NEXT TIME YOU LEAK".

Im sure they exist out in the ether of the internet, but they do not have any real voice like you see in the games community and the backlash about announcement leaks.
Man I remember when Gizmodo was (and still is) banned from all Apple conferences for leaking/or whatever that iPhone 4 they found.
 

jsnepo

Member
Oct 28, 2017
1,648
Tuning a section of gameplay to both work as a segment of a game and market the game to the most live eyes that will ever see it - and for the first time anyone is hearing of the game - is something only a developer can do, not a marketing department.
Then don't do it.
 

Sanka

Member
Feb 17, 2019
700
I think hearing about it is not the problem but seeing the footage of what they would have shown on an event is definitely disappointing. Just realized that with bleeding edge from ninja theory, must have sucked for the developers.
No one was mad that Jason leaked that the next AC is going to be set in scandinavia.
 

Armaros

Member
Oct 25, 2017
3,491
Man I remember when Gizmodo was (and still is) banned from all Apple conferences for leaking/or whatever that iPhone 4 they found.
thats not the same thing im talking about.

Thats between apple and Gizmodo,

Not Apple deliberatly riling up consumers to attack journalists for figuring stuff out.
 

jviggy43

Member
Oct 28, 2017
14,590
Like many, I can see where both sides are coming from, but ultimately I think I side with Jason.

Sure, it sucks for devs if their reveal isn't done how they wanted. I can totally get this argument.

But, for one, does it really harm them? And for two, if leaks are inevitable nowadays, perhaps it's time to adjust your marketing strategy?

I'm trying to remember instances where something truly major came out of nowhere at E3, some big "HOLY SHIT WHAT" moment that no one saw coming whatsoever, and I'm drawing a blank. Maybe And personally, all my most hyped E3 moments have been stuff that was leaked or at the very least, teased in advance, or something that I knew was in the work in some way. Bloodborne, Monster Hunter World, Horizon Zero Dawn.. when the trailers hit, I already knew about those games existing in some way, and it in no way took anything out of the excitement.



Both of those were leaked, though!

So was FF7Remake and The Last Guardian, and still people went apeshit at E3.

So.... 🤷‍♀️


To be fair that can totally be a spoiler.
Something like Gehrman or Owl or Isshin being bosses are absolutely spoilers. "Gaping Dragon", not so much.
Have to agree with all of this. Especially the part about altering the approach if said approach is so liable to cost devs money and resources for having info leak. Maybe stop putting so much effort into keeping everything a secret.

If it costs that much money maybe its time to alter your approach and stop trying to go for shock surprises?