J. Schreier: "Don't let billion dollar marketing convince you it's a spoiler" [See Threadmarks for further clarification]

[Johnny Cage itS]

But that demo is still used for marketing. It was made for marketing.

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So they worked a full year for a demo? I say use that one year to work on the game itself and not for something to show off as part of marketing. Leave the marketing to the marketing department.

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I am not sure you understand how important marketing is for a product's success and how it actually works while the product is still in development. The God of War gameplay example is a perfect one. I watched that Raising Kratos doc.

While you may be right in saying they worked a full year on a demo, which was like 20 minutes of gameplay. But that 20 minutes demonstration to the mass gaming audience cemented thier confidence and the assurance that they were on the right track, and their consumers wanted exactly what they were offering. The super positive feedback they got from just a small chunk of "marketing" demo, helped them spend the rest of the 12 months making an awesome game they already knew the consumer wanted and liked...

On the flip side, see the new live action Sonic movie trailer for "marketing" that helped the film makers better (in this case scrap) their product to meet their customer's demands and thus (in Sonic's case at least try to...) succeed in making a movie that people want to actually pay money and see.

In both of these examples, marketing (trailer and game demo) played a huge roll in making these products what they are or what they potentially will be.

 

[Sean]

To the people who are worried that a leak would spoil something for them or alter their experience in an undesirable way, why are they frequenting forums like this near the time of E3, or this forum at all where leaks and rumors are always being posted year round? This is the thing I'll never understand about these types of concerns. If it means that much and people are that concerned how could you possibly justify browsing places that do exactly the very thing theyre trying to avoid? Seems like a lot of wanting to have their cake and eat it too.

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Because I still want to talk about video games. Like I said in another post, I accept leaks happen, I just don't *like* them and feel they lessen things a bit. But that's not worth shutting myself off from other people for personally.

They're disappointing, that's all. I don't think people should be so dismissive of people feeling that E3 is a little more fun without them. It doesn't ruin E3, but it does change the experience a bit.

I just prefer having a little surprise in the party if reasonably possible.

 

[Shroki]

Then don't do it.

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They don't do it for shits and giggles. It sells the game better.

God of War's demo and The Last of Us 1's demo in particular did SO much to sell those games, more than any mish-mash movie style trailer could ever do.

 

[scare_crow]

A-fucking-men.

It's a commercial. It's exciting, yes, but don't take it too seriously folks.

 

[jviggy43]

So tell me what value is added by reporting on this a couple of days in advance ?

And yes to your question because I don't think any value is added.

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The same value that non leakers want from the shocking reveals. How is it any different? The only difference is one group can control whether or not they get what they want (IE stay off forums that leak).

 

[Tzarscream]

So tell me what value is added by reporting on this a couple of days in advance ?

And yes to your question because I don't think any value is added.

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He's reporting on news, it's the bread and butter of journalism. A trusted source gives him information related to his industry, he verifies it and then he runs the story. You may not see the value added, Im sure people were genuinely interested in the leak and didn't care it was "spoiled." Regardless whether or not you see the value is not relevant, it's the function of his job and he'd be a bad journalist for not reporting it.

Oh no

People are getting their dopamine highs from the wrong thing!

This unhealthy behaviour must stop! Why can't they get their dopamine highs from consuming paid products instead?

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You're being sarcastic but it's just like social media addiction, you see a notification and you brain releases those feel good chemicals and you get addicted. Same here, people value the feeling and hype of the moment over the larger context behind it.

 

[saiko]

Like many, I can see where both sides are coming from, but ultimately I think I side with Jason.

Sure, it sucks for devs if their reveal isn't done how they wanted. I can totally get this argument.

But, for one, does it really harm them? And for two, if leaks are inevitable nowadays, perhaps it's time to adjust your marketing strategy?

I'm trying to remember instances where something truly major came out of nowhere at E3, some big "HOLY SHIT WHAT" moment that no one saw coming whatsoever, and I'm drawing a blank. Maybe And personally, all my most hyped E3 moments have been stuff that was leaked or at the very least, teased in advance, or something that I knew was in the work in some way. Bloodborne, Monster Hunter World, Horizon Zero Dawn.. when the trailers hit, I already knew about those games existing in some way, and it in no way took anything out of the excitement.



Both of those were leaked, though!

So was FF7Remake and The Last Guardian, and still people went apeshit at E3.

So.... 🤷‍♀️


To be fair that can totally be a spoiler.

Spoiler: Bloodborne, Sekiro

Something like Gehrman or Owl or Isshin being bosses are absolutely spoilers. "Gaping Dragon", not so much.

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Not everyone is exposed to every leak so yes, those moments of "holy shit no way!" do still happen and people cherish those moments, otherwise we would not be having this conversation. It's just getting increasingly harder and harder to do so in this day and age when the internet has become so prominent in our daily lives.

My main issue is you have people insisting that you shouldn't be upset over leaks and spoilers because you're feeding into the corporate hype machine and marketing cycle, which is an incredibly cynical take to begin with. Like I'm aware this is all marketing for these companies in the end, but that doesn't mean I don't sincerely enjoy it for what it is.

 

[SurrenderDorothy]

Being disappointed that game announcements have leaked isn't a problem, I get that.
Turning it into some weird spoiler culture is a problem, tf is that about?

That's how a leak days before the announcement feels like

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Lmfao, this is dramatic.

 

[cowbanana]

Bring the leaks, the industry has made it very clear that it views its games as mere products fed to the consumer by a large hype machine. I always giggle when someone throws a spanner in the works of the giant hype machine. There's no high art to protect here, not at E3 at least.

Spending a year on an E3 demo is also crazy, espcially for a boss starved game like God of War, they could have made 2-3 bosses instead of a dumb hype demo.

 

[Francesco]

Lol, he's defending his little articles confirming leaks.
Of course it's a spoiler E3 is a show it.
Nothing "unhealthy" but people getting mad at Kotaku and others.

 

[Plum]

Have to agree with all of this. Especially the part about altering the approach if said approach is so liable to cost devs money and resources for having info leak. Maybe stop putting so much effort into keeping everything a secret.


If it costs that much money maybe its time to alter your approach and stop trying to go for shock surprises?

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You don't think that gaming companies haven't thought of that idea? Of course they have, because the job of marketing teams and business strategists is to figure out the best way to sell a product to a mass audience. This notion that games can just "switch" to the film model with no cost to them is ignorant as to the realities of the situation we're in. That's especially true when the only reason everyone says they should do that is the threat that attention seeking leakers present.

You're being sarcastic but it's just like social media addiction, you see a notification and you brain releases those feel good chemicals and you get addicted. Same here, people value the feeling and hype of the moment over the larger context behind it.

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How can you be addicted to something that happens only once a year?

Surely, if we're going the 'addiction' route, those who intentionally seek out and post leaks are more "addicted"? With E3 you spend a few days watching and getting excited (a lot of the time with friends). With leaks you have to follow Twitter accounts, check sites like Era regularly, and even break NDAs just so you can get your next 'fix.'

 

[jviggy43]

Because I still want to talk about video games. Like I said in another post, I accept leaks happen, I just don't *like* them and feel they lessen things a bit. But that's not worth shutting myself off from other people for personally.

They're disappointing, that's all. I don't think people should be so dismissive of people feeling that E3 is a little more fun without them. It doesn't ruin E3, but it does change the experience a bit.

I just prefer having a little surprise in the party if reasonably possible.

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So go talk about video games on forums that aren't predicated on publishing leaks and rumors? Reddit has sub reddits for any game you want to discuss that have nothing to do with potential industry leaks. You dont have to shut yourself off completely, you just have to filter what places you frequent.

Were dismissive because you can have an E3 while nothing gets spoiled for you and while others get to read leaks. This is what Im saying about having your cake and eating it too. You either chose to filter your browsing content, dont browse anywhere just to be safe, or run the risk of having something spoiled for you. The only person you have to blame for reading leaks, if you dont want to see them is yourself. I just dont see why anyone should be sympathetic towards team non leakers when theyre at full control to avoid leaks if they really cared that much.

You are totally within the right to want to be surprised. And I totally understand why you and others like/want that. But the only way you dont get that experience, is if you rob yourself of it.

 

[FakePlasticTree]

There are follow up tweets from both Schreier and Barlog before everyone starts pointing fingers and getting outraged at one or the other, people.

 

[carlosrox]

Leak culture is pretty damn annoying at the very least.

Just let the people who make the shit reveal it how they want instead of some Twitter or forum post.

 

[IIFloodyII]

I say there is something wrong if it requires a full year of development with crunch probably to make a demo to show on stage. Don't do a demo. Just show a trailer or something.

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I don't disagree, but it is what it is unfortunately, if they don't show raw gameplay, people will complain and the stuff they make for the demo can be used for the final version, so it's not completely wasted time just for marketing, but it is a significant amount of time and effort just for 1 relatively short E3 demo. It's a big reason I've come to dislike E3 and similar shows actually.

There's a dev in the recent God of War making of doc that says some along the lines of "it took us 1 year to make 10 minutes of gameplay, now we have to make another 30+ hours in 2" that's just stuck with me, can't imagine how much stress that thought would give you.

 

[Gundam]

Yep yep yep. It's a shame for devs and artists, but leaks that aren't story or character related are free game

 

[Kenjovani]

Everyone has their opinions and reasons and I respect all of them. It's kind of similar to ppl saying "oh why show a game at E3 tht won't be released for a few years" never understood that line of thinking, it's to get people hype and part of E3 is to show projects in the pipeline. E3 was never about showing a game that will be released immediately after.

Spoiling that a title is being worked on by a specific company doesn't bother me, the content however being shown ahead of time before the E3 I'm going to sit diwn and watch does.

 

[gofreak]

I appreciate how devs feel, but I also see Jason's point from the consumer point of view.

We spend so much of the year wishing for leaks. To me it's not really any different if I log on to resetera and find out about a game today, or if I find out about it on Sunday. None of this will matter by next week.

I'm sure the companies love that some are very invested in their executing press conferences flawlessly but that aspect is not something I get entirely. I understand if you work at the company but otherwise? It feels like the 'show' side of, and the company 'making an impact', is more important for some than the games themselves or the actual info? I think that's what Jason means by not buying into the marketing machine.

 

[jviggy43]

You don't think that gaming companies haven't thought of that idea? Of course they have, because the job of marketing teams and business strategists is to figure out the best way to sell a product to a mass audience. This notion that games can just "switch" to the film model with no cost to them is ignorant as to the realities of the situation we're in. That's especially true when the only reason everyone says they should do that is the threat that attention seeking leakers present.



How can you be addicted to something that happens only once a year?

Surely, if we're going the 'addiction' route, those who intentionally seek out and post leaks are more "addicted"? With E3 you spend a few days watching and getting excited (a lot of the time with friends). With leaks you have to follow Twitter accounts, check sites like Era regularly, and even break NDAs just so you can get your next 'fix.'

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I'm going to need this to be fleshed out more for me because I'm a layman to the industry. How would switching models cost them MORE money then if they had their plans leaked early? Everything has a cost, but if the argument is it costs them money to have their content leak, why are they not switching models and if it costs less to roll the dice on whether their game will leak then Im not sure what the problem is given that it would be the cheaper alternative for them in the first place.

 

[Liyfda]

Jason isn't wrong, but reporting on leaks doesn't say anything about the culture of game announcements. It mostly just exploits it.

Jonathan does bring up a great point about movies and I hope one day games can move towards putting less emphasis on the announcements.

 

[Johnny Cage itS]

So the main message here is I like Journalism but only when it suits my interests?

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No the main message here is, I like quality game journalism with some dignity and respect to the game makers and the game consumers (players) and not tabloid, trash, click bait "journalism" that serves no purpose and helps no one but Schierier and his pockets.

 

[Kemono]

I'm all up for games journalism but not 2 fucking days before a big event...

Tell me all around the year what you've found out but doing so right before it's happening feels like cashing in on spoilers.

It's especially sad to see one of the better journalists in the industry behaving like a 4chan leaker. He profits of it and tells us not to be upset. Why didn't he leak the new from software game last week (name, art, etc.)? Why defending this stuff if he doesn't do it as soon as he has the info.? I' m reading all the time that he has heard something after someone else leaks stuff.

Why is it ok for him to hold back his information?

 

[Wise]

Think about it this way. If Sony didn't confirm that the next PlayStation was coming would it make the eventual full reveal any more exciting?

Everyone needs to do this. Tell us what you are working on and when you are ready, show us.

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Bingo. The movie industry does this. Why can't the game industry follow?

 

[ethanradd]

Terrible take, let us have our fun man, don't care for leaks. So what if it's marketing? Are these leakers truly motivated by breaking the cruel wheel of capitalism or are they lowkey mostly just attention seekers themselves or might have their own personal incentives?

 

[Bashteee]

Thinking back, the Resident Evil 7 reveal wouldn't have been so great for me if any of that would've leaked earlier. So for me personally, leaks for some game announcements can spoil the fun to a certain degree.

 

[LuckyLinus]

No the main message here is, I like quality game journalism with some dignity and respect to the game makers and the game consumers (players) and not tabloid, trash, click bait "journalism" that serves no purpose and helps no one but Schierier and his pockets.

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News and click bait are not the same, just stay off social media if leaks bother you that much.

 

[Tzarscream]

No the main message here is, I like quality game journalism with some dignity and respect to the game makers and the game consumers (players) and not tabloid, trash, click bait "journalism" that serves no purpose and helps no one but Schierier and his pockets.

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I would argue that deliberately holding back on information to appease corporate interests/zealous fans shows a distinct lack of integrity.

 

[Raijinto]

I don't think it's unhealthy to look forward to E3 for the showcasing of exciting things. Granted, I'm also not mad at say No No Kuni remastered being leaked because I'm not a weirdo but say for example if someone had leaked that Super Mario Odyssey trailer from a couple of years ago complete with Jump Up Superstar and all. Yeah that would've sucked big time, it was great to be blown away by that trailer, and I'm not ashamed of admitting that. There are also the devs obviously who want to reveal them on their terms, publishers too but I'm less concerned about them. It's also obvious why he is arguing this because it benefits him to have people look forward to and expect these leaks and read about them on his site days in advance so I'm not really seeing how it's only one side here who are defending their own lucrative business.

 

[carlosrox]

Leaks being on the front page are even more irritating.

How about spoiler warnings? Or a thread for leaks if people want to find them?

If it truly doesn't matter then why leak something 2 days before the actual announcement? Why leak anything at all?

I'd rather see an HL3 announcement through a well presented and unexpected trailer versus some stupid 4chan post.

 

[Eumi]

Companies have successfully trained people to be against leaks. The fight's already lost. They decided to push their marketing as "entertainment" for a reason.

 

[IIFloodyII]

I'm all up for games journalism but not 2 fucking days before a big event...

Tell me all around the year what you've found out but doing so right before it's happening feels like cashing in on spoilers.

It's especially sad to see one of the better journalists in the industry behaving like a 4chan leaker. He profits of it and tells us not to be upset. Why didn't he leak the new from software game last week (name, art, etc.)? Why defending this stuff if he doesn't do it as soon as he has the info.? I' m reading all the time that he has heard something after someone else leaks stuff.

Why is it ok for him to hold back his information?

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Because he's not 100% confident in it, that's not a bad thing, a lot of "leakers" are far to quick to jump on a rumour only to have got bamboozled (see the recent TLoU 2 is releasing in November "rumour"). Around E3 or the announcement it's a lot easier for people to come across concrete leaks, which is why we always get lot of leaks days and hours before.

 

[Deleted member 888]

I'm more frustrated with devs and publishers using E3 to show bullshit vertical slices they must know are never going to turn out reality to mislead and "sell" viewers bullshit.

 

[WarLox]

Spoiler

"As fun and exciting as E3 press conference surprises can be, please don't let billion-dollar corporate marketing convince you that it's a "spoiler" to know about a game announcement two days before you're supposed to - makes for an unhealthy culture, really"

This is something I see pop up every year during E3 when things start leaking out early. And its always struck me as odd because like...its people essentially getting mad over corporate marketing ads being "spoiled" for them. When people get mad about ads getting spoiled for them it just comes off to me as late stage capitalism run amok. And don't get me wrong I'm not some joyless golem that doesn't get excited when news of something cool drops but I think Jason really hit on a point here as these press conferences are really designed to get people to rush out and spike pre-order numbers for them in the midst of their fevered hype. While surprises can be fun I think tempering yourself would also be healthy.

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At the end of the day, its all just forms of entertainment. Why do you care if people get excited about official announcements? Some people are driving hundreds of miles, just to watch those announcements live.

Some people play games, and some people watch people play games.

There's room for everyone.

 

[Plasma]

Thinking back, the Resident Evil 7 reveal wouldn't have been so great for me if any of that would've leaked earlier. So for me personally, leaks for some game announcements can spoil the fun to a certain degree.

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But just knowing that a Resident Evil 7 was in development wouldn't have spoiled it, the trailer itself was such a departure from what we're used to seeing in a Resident Evil game that most people wouldn't have put two and two together.

 

[TheRaidenPT]

I enjoy the leaks it pumps me to upcoming reveals.

Right before all the pre order crap

 

[Chackan]

50/50 on this one!
I like surprise anouncements but also don't mind leaks.

Prolly an exception would be P.T.

Knowing it was a teaser for a new SH before it coming out would ruin all the hype it caused.

 

[Mr.Deadshot]

jschreier is 100% right. These are announcements for games. Not some major story twists. And sometimes it's only some empty CGI-trailer or fake-gameplay that doesn't even reflect the quality of the final game.

Everything has to be an event nowadays. We get trailers and countdowns and teases for trailers and announcements . It's ridiculous. Just show the game when you are ready and share some informations about it then concentrate on the production again.

And everyone saying they like to be surprised during the conferences: Just stay away from gaming media for some days. Most of the leaks happen 2-3 days before the conferences. It's not that hard.

 

[Johnny Cage itS]

Bingo. The movie industry does this. Why can't the game industry follow?

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Except no (sane) movie watching /loving audience ever says to Richard Linklater and his production team "I've been waiting for Boyhood for over 12 years now, since you announced it back then, it better be a good fucking movie or I am going to go on my movie blog, read by thousands of movie goers and trash the shit out of it and wonder why it took so many fucking years to make it?"

 

[Mediking]

That's how a leak days before the announcement feels like

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Agreed and Im pretty sure most leakers are bored so they leak without concern lol

 

[Sean]

So go talk about video games on forums that aren't predicated on publishing leaks and rumors? Reddit has sub reddits for any game you want to discuss that have nothing to do with potential industry leaks. You dont have to shut yourself off completely, you just have to filter what places you frequent.

Were dismissive because you can have an E3 while nothing gets spoiled for you and while others get to read leaks. This is what Im saying about having your cake and eating it too. You either chose to filter your browsing content, dont browse anywhere just to be safe, or run the risk of having something spoiled for you. The only person you have to blame for reading leaks, if you dont want to see them is yourself. I just dont see why anyone should be sympathetic towards team non leakers when theyre at full control to avoid leaks if they really cared that much.

You are totally within the right to want to be surprised. And I totally understand why you and others like/want that. But the only way you dont get that experience, is if you rob yourself of it.

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Okay, I there's some stuff I'm not conveying well. Like I replied to someone else, I agreed that I don't consider leaks spoilers. It's not about that.

It's about how it changes the experience of watching it all together. Once leaks are out there that's it. It changes how people react as a whole. That's why I just accept them and don't cut myself off and go on media blackout. It's not about something being revealed to me personally, I'm there for the party.

It's a little more fun without leaks, but they happen and they're going to keep happening. Nothing I can do about it. I wish they wouldn't, that's all.

And well, we're not suckers in a corporate machine for wanting to have a *little* more fun at the party. That line that's been going around is real silly.

 

[jbug617]

Most of the time the initial leak isn't even done by journalists. It's done by someone anonymous on the internet. Seems like journalists wait for the speculation to pick up steam to confirm or deny the speculation before adding all the info they heard.

 

[carlosrox]

I'm sure Jason would love it if people leaked stuff about a book he was working on if he wanted to be the one to announce it.

 

[Johnny Cage itS]

I would argue that deliberately holding back on information to appease corporate interests/zealous fans shows a distinct lack of integrity.

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You must just eat up everything Fox News or CNN reports to you then? Not everything that is "reported" by "journalists" is newsworthy amigo, or more importantly, even for the best of our ( consumers') interest.

 

[JCH!]

How is a leak less surprising than an announcement. Do you need flashy lights, an orchestra, and vfx to be surprised?

 

[Plum]

I'm going to need this to be fleshed out more for me because I'm a layman to the industry. How would switching models cost them MORE money then if they had their plans leaked early? Everything has a cost, but if the argument is it costs them money to have their content leak, why are they not switching models and if it costs less to roll the dice on whether their game will leak then Im not sure what the problem is given that it would be the cheaper alternative for them in the first place.

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Marketing plans are much more than just the marketing themselves, and what works for one type of product will probably not work for another. I can't specifically say why gaming marketing favours the marketing schemes it does, but considering this is "billion dollar marketing," I highly doubt that the people in charge haven't at least considered the possibility of moving to something different.

 

[Spyware]

I would argue that deliberately holding back on information to appease corporate interests/zealous fans shows a distinct lack of integrity.

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We're not talking dirty secrets, we're talking about if Game X exists or what Game Y is. The information in question isn't something that needs to be out, no one is getting hurt by keeping it a secret. What is gained by reveling something that was gonna be revealed a day, week, month or half a year later? "Transparency"? Not on the right terms.

 

[ArjanN]

I feel the first line of his tweet kinda undercuts the rest of it.

 

[Fredrik]

It's a 2 hour show I've planned to watch. Why wouldn't I get annoyed if it's spoiled? Don't you get annoyed if someone spoil the ending of a 2 hour movie you plan to watch?

 

[Deleted member 46948]

Cory seems to have lost the plot a little.
Jason is right, this "Name X is coming" hype culture is stupid.

 

[Kareha]

I don

Most of the time the initial leak isn't even done by journalists. It's done by someone anonymous on the internet. Seems like journalists wait for the speculation to pick up steam to confirm or deny the speculation before adding all the info they heard.

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If they were actual journalists and not just bloggers.