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James Cameron relieved that Avengers: Endgame beat Avatar at the box office.

Krejlooc

Indie Game Dev
Verified
Oct 27, 2017
18,190
I’m not a big fan of Cameron, but the fact that he reached those records with a completely new IP is something that still blows my mind. Though I don’t really think a new Avatar could get close to Endgame, a film that was built up in a span of ten freaking years of really good movies.
I really love James Cameron, but the exact opposite of what you are attributing is true: sequels typically pull in less money than their prequels, especially story-driven continuations. That Avengers End Game beat Avatar is even more impressive, because you needed to see the previous one to really get the hype for it.
 

Merv

Member
Oct 27, 2017
1,974
I don't even think it looks all that dated compared to what they are putting out now. I think it still surpasses most of the blockbusters today.
Last time I saw it was at my in laws and it was playing off their DVR, so it was probably not the best format. When I replace my 10year old 51 inch TV with a monster 4K I will get it on UHD.
 
Dec 12, 2017
6,819
Gotta love people trash talking Jaime when he held the record for 12 years with Titanic, came back and broke his own record and then held the record for another 10 years.

I want to see another director(s) hold the crown for 22 consecutive years...but i won't.

Will never happen again in my lifetime.
 

Poimandres

Member
Oct 26, 2017
2,519
Avatar was a bit hokey, but you bet your arse I'll be there for the sequel. Why? Because I enjoy seeing the tech bar pushed forward, Cameron knows how to shoot action, and I love alien worlds with strange creatures and landscapes (even though Avatar was a little underwhelming on that front).

I've seen maybe 15 of the Marvel movies and I wasn't fussed enough to go see Endgame. I simply don't care about super hero's, and have found those films generally uninspiring even as spectacles. The target demographics might be more different than people think.
 

AndreGX

GameXplain
Verified
Oct 24, 2017
1,340
San Francisco
I really love James Cameron, but the exact opposite of what you are attributing is true: sequels typically pull in less money than their prequels, especially story-driven continuations. That Avengers End Game beat Avatar is even more impressive, because you needed to see the previous one to really get the hype for it.
If that were the case, wouldn't one expect more than 6 or 7 movies out of the Top 50 to be original? The other 40+ were either a sequel/prequel or remake of an existing IP. The only exceptions I found were Frozen, Jurassic Park, Zootopia, Jumanji, Titanic, and Avatar. So it would seem being an original IP has a much smaller chance of getting anywhere close to the top of the list these days.

Edit: Just realized even Jumanji was technically a sequel.
 
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Bumrush

Member
Oct 25, 2017
5,904
I can see why you would be surprised people liked it, but why people went to see it?

James Cameron, made T1, T2, The Abyss, and uhh Titanic.

All the promos showed the most realistic CG world ever. It looks a little dated now, but back then it was unbelievable.

3D was the hottest shit and one of the most acclaimed directors ever, was going all in on it with his latest movie. This was THE showcase for 3D movies, so of course people wanted to see it.

Word of mouth. I saw Avatar twice in the theater. The first time with a friend the second time with my wife, because of the 3D. Pandora was an awesome setting and the fact that it was 100% fake, but looked so inviting in 3D was mind blowing at the time. So, I took my wife and told others to see it. Most people including myself, didn't give a fuck about the story. It was serviceable and gave a loose foundation to build up the world.

I haven't re-watched it in years, but when I get a 4K TV I will probably watch it again.
You forgot Aliens!!!
 

Krejlooc

Indie Game Dev
Verified
Oct 27, 2017
18,190
If that were the case, wouldn't one expect more than 6 or 7 movies out of the Top 50 to be original? The other 40+ were either a sequel/prequel or remake of an existing IP. The only exceptions I found were Frozen, Jurassic Park, Zootopia, Jumanji, Titanic, and Avatar. So it would seem being an original IP has a much smaller chance of getting anywhere close to the top of the list these days.

Edit: Just realized even Jumanji was technically a sequel.
Take a harder look at the list. They are entries in franchises, but the entries that appear on the top 50 list are usually reboots or beginnings of new arcs. Like Jurassic World -- you basically don't have to see any of the previous JP movies to dive in, or The Force Awakens.
 

AndreGX

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Verified
Oct 24, 2017
1,340
San Francisco
Take a harder look at the list. They are entries in franchises, but the entries that appear on the top 50 list are usually reboots or beginnings of new arcs. Like Jurassic World -- you basically don't have to see any of the previous JP movies to dive in, or The Force Awakens.
I literally said "remake" in my post; I don't see why that should get counted as an exception. Point is they were all movies dependent on an existing theatrical IP. But even if we did grant them an arbitrary exception, the list is still dominated by sequels. The fact that you don't "have to any any previous movies" (a questionable assertion) in the series is irrelevant to the original point which was based on "completely new IP"
 

Krejlooc

Indie Game Dev
Verified
Oct 27, 2017
18,190
I literally said "remake" in my post; I don't see why that should get counted as an exception
Because the point I made in my post was that viewing a sequel requires one to see the previous film first, as in the potential audience is normally a subset of the previous audience, and you never, ever hit 100% of your potential audience. Like, that's the entire point, that's precisely why a remake or reboot doesn't count.

We're not talking about "theoretical" movies, we're talking about End Game, a direct sequel to a movie with a cliffhanger ending.
 

TheGhost

Member
Oct 25, 2017
13,523
Long Island





+ you know, detective dee / flying swords of dragon gate, pacific rim, the hobbit
Yeah and none of those were on par or had the word of mouth power to have people be like "you have to see this movie avatar in 3-d"

Fuck the story and characters, the whole 3-d experience is what brought people in.

Like no one ever seen something like that before outside of 12 minute movies at Disney world Parks
 

AndreGX

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Verified
Oct 24, 2017
1,340
San Francisco
Because the point I made in my post was that viewing a sequel requires one to see the previous film first, as in the potential audience is normally a subset of the previous audience, and you never, ever hit 100% of your potential audience. Like, that's the entire point, that's precisely why a remake or reboot doesn't count.

We're not talking about "theoretical" movies, we're talking about End Game, a direct sequel to a movie with a cliffhanger ending.
I think you've forgotten the point you were replying to. The original poster said that fact that Avatar made it to the top as a "completely new IP " is what made it so impressive. Then you replied along the lines of "no, sequels usually make less money," making zero mention of the "having to see the previous movie" first argument you're now using for some reason. And I simply asked if your assertion was true, why do we not see more original IP on the Top 50 list?
 
Oct 27, 2017
2,633
I'm not a huge fan of Avatar but it's always cute to see some people shit on Avatar while holding Endgame and Infinity War up as examples of some good film-making. Neither film is anything remarkable and only captured the zeitgeist because they were the culmination of a decade long arc spanning almost two dozen films.

From a narrative, acting and story telling perspective, they are average to below average movies and aren't anywhere as good as films like Black Panther, Civil War, Winter Soldier, GOTG and Iron Man from its own cinematic universe.
 

Stabbie

Member
May 8, 2019
749
Yeah and none of those were on par or had the word of mouth power to have people be like "you have to see this movie avatar in 3-d"

Fuck the story and characters, the whole 3-d experience is what brought people in.

Like no one ever seen something like that before outside of 12 minute movies at Disney world Parks
Gravity absolutely did tho ? same for pacific rim ? cant even imagine what these should be in 2D

oh and, yeah you're right, the wow factor absolutely helped
 

TheGhost

Member
Oct 25, 2017
13,523
Long Island
Gravity absolutely did tho ? same for pacific rim ? cant even imagine what these should be in 2D

oh and, yeah you're right, the wow factor absolutely helped
Pacific Rim didn't have any crazy wow 3-d type effects that moved audiences to see the film. It got beaten by a damn Adam Sandler movie that wasn't even good. If that movie was that impressive in 3-d it would have performed better.
 

Krejlooc

Indie Game Dev
Verified
Oct 27, 2017
18,190
Haha oops! I got confused when you extrapolated that to other sequels as well. My mistake

The point remains though: if sequels regularly made less, why are they dominating the list?
Because:

Take a harder look at the list. They are entries in franchises, but the entries that appear on the top 50 list are usually reboots or beginnings of new arcs. Like Jurassic World -- you basically don't have to see any of the previous JP movies to dive in, or The Force Awakens.
 

UltraMagnus

Member
Oct 27, 2017
6,706
Avatar may not be the most original movie, but it's not like Avengers is high art with something profound to say. At least Avatar has ecological themes that are relevant to the world today. I'd say they're both similar in quality. Cameron doesn't have an outright bad film on his resume.
 

Eila

Member
Oct 27, 2017
1,475
Don't think Avatar can do it now, even with Cameron and the previous film doing so much.
 

Border

Member
Oct 25, 2017
8,619
If that were the case, wouldn't one expect more than 6 or 7 movies out of the Top 50 to be original? The other 40+ were either a sequel/prequel or remake of an existing IP. The only exceptions I found were Frozen, Jurassic Park, Zootopia, Jumanji, Titanic, and Avatar. So it would seem being an original IP has a much smaller chance of getting anywhere close to the top of the list these days.

Edit: Just realized even Jumanji was technically a sequel.
Avatar, Titanic, Star Wars: A New Hope, ET, Jurassic Park and Gone With The Wind were all at one time or another the #1 grossing film of all time, and all of them were new IPs/non-sequels. The kind of broad appeal it takes to be #1 means you cannot rely on a built-in fanbase (generally).
 

FreezePeach

Member
Oct 25, 2017
8,499
Avatar is a real nice case study of how being an actually amazing theater experience gets people to the theater. The first trailers for the movie didnt excite a hell of a lot. Its hype before that was it was a project in seemingly development hell from James Cameron for many years. I remember it all well. And the first week it opened, it was like 70 mil or something, and there were major snowstorms in the NE basically drowning turnout. Subsequent weeks actually increased. And i know when i went to see it with a group, when we went to dinner that night people were telling the waiters at the restaurant they needed to go see it in 3d cause its amazing.

Thats why it was at the top. It actually deserved it. *face shock*
 

Masterz1337

Member
Oct 25, 2017
1,239
Can people not just admit all 4 (titanic, avatar, infinity war, and endgame) are all fantastic films?

They are all lightning in a bottle cinema never to be recreated.

Avatar deserves recognition for being a cinematic event completely out of the blue that revolutionized 3d and performance capture across all industries.

Titanic is a movie that moved hundreds of millions of dollars through sheer storytelling alone. It’s a god damn period piece romance movie and is the third highest grossing of all time.

Infinity War is an incredible spectacle weaving nearly 2 dozen movies into a single narrative and a decade of hype which ends with probably the most horrific ending for a franchise film. I remember turning around to see people in shock and kids crying. The general audience was left dumbfounded at the end. No other film did anything like it.

And then you have endgame which capitalized on that history and raw emotions of loss to sell itself to be the #1 film of all time. The lead up to that film was a conclusions to so many films and so many beloved characters. It’s a movie unique that will never exist again.

They’re all fantastic films and trying to downplay one to support the other is stupid.

You wouldn’t have the success of avatar without titanic.

You wouldn’t have Thanos as the leading character of IW as he is without the advancements from avatar. And that film wouldn’t work without him as he was portrayed.

There is no Endgame without IW.

Stop shitting on cinema gold.
 

The Adder

Member
Oct 25, 2017
6,579
Shit, I'd be relieved knowing that that's what it took to beat me. The culmination of a decade's worth of grasping jealously the popular zeitgeist in a fist held tight and swung into my record to topple it?

Yeah. Yeah I could be satisfied with that loss.
 

excelsiorlef

Member
Oct 25, 2017
38,355
It took the MCU 20 tries with a proven brand to beat Cameron's tossed off blue ferngully bullshit. Avatar 20 will be the first movie to crack 100 billion.
Wait you realize building a franchise that grows to the point where 21 movies later it's #1 is an incredible achievement right?

Franchise longevity is a remarkable feat not a "oh they took an easier path".
 

Tobor

Member
Oct 25, 2017
3,018
Richmond, VA
Avatar may not be the most original movie, but it's not like Avengers is high art with something profound to say. At least Avatar has ecological themes that are relevant to the world today. I'd say they're both similar in quality. Cameron doesn't have an outright bad film on his resume.
Avatar has an underwhelming and forgettable script and...IMO...poor alien design. It also has a subpar actor in the lead role. I agree it was excellent as far as tech goes.

Endgame doesn’t have any of Avatars flaws. While it’s true neither is Citizen Kane or whatever, Endgame is the better of the two movies.
 
Oct 25, 2017
10,763
James Cameron doesn't do what James Cameron does for James Cameron. James Cameron does what James Cameron does because James Cameron is... James Cameron.
 

Dude Abides

Member
Oct 27, 2017
1,914
Refreshingly humble of him. I bet if they re-released the original like 6 months before the sequel, with all the 3D bells and whistles, and hyped the shit out of it and played it up as an opportunity to relive the spectacle now that 3D is basically dead, it’d get the #1 spot back.
 

Cpt-GargameL

Member
Oct 27, 2017
5,879
Refreshingly humble of him. I bet if they re-released the original like 6 months before the sequel, with all the 3D bells and whistles, and hyped the shit out of it and played it up as an opportunity to relive the spectacle now that 3D is basically dead, it’d get the #1 spot back.
Easily, it's only a $7m difference. Though you gotta wonder if they'll ever do that.