James Franco accused of sexual exploitation or abuse by five women

Volimar

Moderator
Oct 25, 2017
11,186
You were getting all up in arms about Believe Women not being inclusive enough...

My post was addressing posts like yours... to let you know that Believe Women is not the banner... it's part of it but men can use MeToo.

I'm at a loss at your replies to me frankly.

Sorry for being late on this reply, I didn't see it till now. I was wrong in the way that I argued those points. It never came from a place of trying to dismantle any of those movements. And I never thought that the movement itself wasn't inclusive. It was an argument that didn't need to be made. On the contrary I want to encourage everyone who wants to come forward to use the means that speaks most to them. Folks pointed out to me my wrongs and I conceded the point.

Of course the post where I admit I screwed up makes the top of the page...
 

excelsiorlef

Member
Oct 25, 2017
39,228
Sorry for being late on this reply, I didn't see it till now. I was wrong in the way that I argued those points. It never came from a place of trying to dismantle any of those movements. And I never thought that the movement itself wasn't inclusive. It was an argument that didn't need to be made. On the contrary I want to encourage everyone who wants to come forward to use the means that speaks most to them. Folks pointed out to me my wrongs and I conceded the point.

Of course the post where I admit I screwed up makes the top of the page...
Cool cool then... It wasn't clear from your replies to my post I didn't quote you initially because I kinda thought you had actually realized but I wanted to hammer it home for others who might not have.. but then your replies made me doubt that belief... but we cool now :)
 
Nov 6, 2017
7,561
Los Angeles
When I moved to this new city I had three different people (completely disconnected) tell me the same James Franco creep story between him and a local college student. It was an urban legend. I couldn't tell if it was legitimate or an easy celebrity story, because he has such a obvious creeper vibe that the accusations write themselves. I know a few times in the past, women I've known have gotten the shudders just talking about him
What was the story?
 

uncelestial

Member
Oct 25, 2017
3,412
San Francisco, CA, USA
Edit: Fine, removed the PM. I suppose it's the high road to respect the privacy of people who defend sexist criticism of "believe women" by calling me someone who condones rape.

Edit 2: No. You know what, hell with that. Here's what this dude said. Let him defend it, I didn't do anything to deserve this.

You make it sound like men can't be sexually assaulted. And it's poor form to bring the black lives matter protest into this. Sad, actually.

Your probably one of those people that post that nice.jpeg in a thread where a female teacher has sex with a male student.
This, somehow, was his response to this post by me: https://www.resetera.com/posts/3165808/
 
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Oct 27, 2017
6,935
Bandung Indonesia
Hey look at this cool PM PaJeppy sent me.

So, wait, because I said that you shouldn't correct people who say "believe women" with concern trolling about believing "all victims regardless of gender," I'm somehow a person who condones statutory rape?
Man, publishing PMs is like, you broke the trust code, dude. Totally not cool. I don't think it's formally written anywhere as a rule but it's just one of those things you don't do if you're decent. Man....
 

uncelestial

Member
Oct 25, 2017
3,412
San Francisco, CA, USA
Man, publishing PMs is like, you broke the trust code, dude. Totally not cool. I don't think it's formally written anywhere as a rule but it's just one of those things you don't do if you're decent. Man....
It isn't in the rules (I checked) and I'm not interested in the trust of a person defending sexist criticism of "believe women" by calling me a rapist, but okay.
 

Speevy

Member
Oct 26, 2017
7,449
If someone is using the private messaging system as a form of harassment, like hurling insults, it's certainly worth mentioning to a moderator. Likewise if a message concerns the public good, we should know it.

But private messages made in the interest of not derailing the topic should just be ignored or taken with the spirit with which they were intended.

That's one of the functions of private messages. It's why mods say "Take it to PMs." or "PM us if you have concerns."

It's not simply that one of you is right and the other is wrong. It's that we shouldn't be discussing it right now in this topic because it was meant for private messages.
 

Disco

Member
Oct 25, 2017
6,038
This is really disappointing. I've been a huge fan of the guy between Freaks and Geeks, Spiderman and Pineapple Express

Plus the year he had in film and tv in 2017. The way he's been responding to these allegations has been idiotic.
 

Aurelio

Banned
Oct 28, 2017
743
As a former federal prosecutor, I generally only chime in to say this: the legal definition of consent (and mistakes as to whether consent existed) are jurisdiction specific and honestly have NO bearing on what’s at issue here.

Franco isn’t being prosecuted. You aren’t on his jury. You aren’t the judge. You can and should understand that something can be perfectly legal and absolutely awful.

The “I didn’t say no because I felt like I had to do it, and then I did it, but I never really wanted to” probably is grounds for a mistake of fact defense as to consent. (That is, Franco reasonably believed she never withheld consent.)

But it’s still fucking scummy. Of course he knew the context and the situation. Of course he knew vulnerabilities and exploited them.

The fact that it might not make him a rapist (in the strictest sense, legally speaking) doesn’t excuse predatorial behavior. And did you ever think that people in Franco’s shoes understand that? That they can offer parts, mentoring, preferential treatment... and as long as they stop when someone actually says “no,” that they can continue to engage in this kind of behavior without any fear of repercussions?
Apologies — I’m on mobile and don’t have the full fact pattern, because I really just wanted to raise my previous point (that something can be technically legal and horrible at the same time).

But candidly, if the victim in my case only said “Can we do this later?” and then carried out the activity, I wouldn’t be at all optimistic about my chances of a conviction — or if prosecution would be warranted at all. And that’s not even raising their prior (I think?) sexual relationship, which is relevant and admissible when it concerns the accused and the victim (but not between the victim and other partners).

But as I said, the court of public opinion is not a court of law. And that’s a good thing in these cases.
I think it’s also important to understand that these accusations are being made only to expose behavior. Violet very astutely noted that her situation was complex. (And it is.) But she’s not asking for an indictment; I think she was just attempting to highlight a system where powerful men — setting the law aside — can pretty much exploit young, aspiring actresses without fear of any legal consequences OR other repercussions within the industry, such as loss of reputation or losing acting gigs.
Thank you for being a voice of reason and offering an insightful POV based on the law. Although his actions, IF true, are quite scummy people need to remember that the court of public opinion is not the court of law. People may not agree with this because of this current age of hot takes and being PC but in this country it's still innocent until proven guilty. But of course people prefer to believe guilty until proven innocent based on the age we live in.
 

uncelestial

Member
Oct 25, 2017
3,412
San Francisco, CA, USA
If someone is using the private messaging system as a form of harassment, like hurling insults, it's certainly worth mentioning to a moderator. Likewise if a message concerns the public good, we should know it.

But private messages made in the interest of not derailing the topic should just be ignored or taken with the spirit with which they were intended.

That's one of the functions of private messages. It's why mods say "Take it to PMs." or "PM us if you have concerns."

It's not simply that one of you is right and the other is wrong. It's that we shouldn't be discussing it right now in this topic because it was meant for private messages.
The entire point of this movement is uncovering sexism that happens in private. If a poster wants to slide into my DMs to say "you shouldn't be defending the phrase 'believe women'; you probably condone statutory rape if the victim is a man" then their secret is not safe with me.
 

excelsiorlef

Member
Oct 25, 2017
39,228
Thank you for being a voice of reason and offering an insightful POV based on the law. Although his actions, IF true, are quite scummy people need to remember that the court of public opinion is not the court of law. People may not agree with this because of this current age of hot takes and being PC but in this country it's still innocent until proven guilty. But of course people prefer to believe guilty until proven innocent based on the age we live in.
No one is saying lock him up without a trial.



It's funny that you manage to deliver what you think is some insightful take but you basically agree with most of the people you're lecturing: public opinion is not bound by the rules of the courtroom and that he is still entitled to due process in the actual court room... Only you manage to take a cheap shot at PC culture in a sexual abuse thread while doing it.
 

Speevy

Member
Oct 26, 2017
7,449
The entire point of this movement is uncovering sexism that happens in private. If a poster wants to slide into my DMs to say "you shouldn't be defending the phrase 'believe women'; you probably condone statutory rape if the victim is a man" then their secret is not safe with me.
That's not a secret. It's just a comment, and it doesn't really add anything to the public discourse. This is why it should have remained in private.

Someone once messaged me and called me a faggot or something on a PM. I sent the mods a PM and that person was banned a few seconds later. Do that if it bothers you so much. Their PM did no harm to you in public.
 

Aurelio

Banned
Oct 28, 2017
743
No one is saying lock him up without a trial.



It's funny that you manage to deliver what you think is some insightful take but you basically agree with most of the people you're lecturing: public opinion is not bound by the rules of the courtroom and that he is still entitled to due process in the actual court room... Only you manage to take a cheap shot at PC culture in a sexual abuse thread while doing it.
I don't see it as a cheap shot. Everyone is quite aware that the PC culture has only grown in the recent years and especially in this case and quite obviously evidenced by some posts, that some people care more about believing and judging based on initial reports rather than waiting for any kind of investigation is done and waiting for further information to come out.
 

excelsiorlef

Member
Oct 25, 2017
39,228
I don't see it as a cheap shot. Everyone is quite aware that the PC culture has only grown in the recent years and especially in this case and quite obviously evidenced by some posts, that some people care more about believing and judging based on initial reports rather than waiting for any kind of investigation is done and waiting for further information to come out.
Listening to women when they take a difficult step of openly discussing abuse they've endured is PC culture?
 

Aurelio

Banned
Oct 28, 2017
743
Listening to women when they take a difficult step of openly discussing abuse they've endured is PC culture?
PC culture is people's hot takes on a headline without reading into said article and not bothering to remember that in this country you're innocent until proven guilty and then proceed to believe that they're right and despite how shitty the truth is and not in agreement with their personal views/beliefs they're still in the right.

We should be listening to women. Because this is an issue. But that doesn't mean condemning Franco because like it's been established, he's innocent until proven guilty.
 

LionPride

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
12,804
...

Some of yall got issues

Also I wonder how many people understand that Innocent until Proven Guilty is only in the court of law
 

Rmagnus

Member
Oct 28, 2017
1,923
LOL like the so called PC culture is a bad thing.... Feel free to be not pc go ahead and say what's on your mind boo
 

Ketkat

Heart & Mind
Member
Oct 25, 2017
4,043
PC culture is people's hot takes on a headline without reading into said article and not bothering to remember that in this country you're innocent until proven guilty and then proceed to believe that they're right and despite how shitty the truth is and not in agreement with their personal views/beliefs they're still in the right.

We should be listening to women. Because this is an issue. But that doesn't mean condemning Franco because like it's been established, he's innocent until proven guilty.
Weinstein hasn't been found guilty. Is it too pc to condemn him?
 

Aurelio

Banned
Oct 28, 2017
743
...

Some of yall got issues

Also I wonder how many people understand that Innocent until Proven Guilty is only in the court of law
As flawed as the system can be in some aspects, that's how the system works. Innocent until proven guilty is how it goes. The court of public opinion is even worse than a flawed legal system mainly because it can and has been proven that once people are exposed to certain cases and evidence by the media, the chances of a fair and unbiased trial are slim to none because people have already made up their mind and the chances of finding people who don't read or watch the news are low so finding someone who holds a neutral POV is basically zero.
 

excelsiorlef

Member
Oct 25, 2017
39,228
PC culture is people's hot takes on a headline without reading into said article and not bothering to remember that in this country you're innocent until proven guilty and then proceed to believe that they're right and despite how shitty the truth is and not in agreement with their personal views/beliefs they're still in the right.

We should be listening to women. Because this is an issue. But that doesn't mean condemning Franco because like it's been established, he's innocent until proven guilty.
You literally argued that Court of Law and Public Opinion are not the same, I agreed

Now you are arguing they are the same... And still arguing PC culture for some reason.
 

Aurelio

Banned
Oct 28, 2017
743
You literally argued that Court of Law and Public Opinion are not the same, I agreed

Now you are arguing they are the same... And still arguing PC culture for some reason.
I'm not arguing they're the same. I'm not dismissing that we shouldn't believe them. I'm saying, that it's important to discuss what's going on but that the court of law holds more credence than the court of public opinion. And the reason I'm still talking about PC because with PC being more prevalent today, I feel that it lends itself to people believing that the court of public opinion is truly the most important thing and the 100% truth.
 

excelsiorlef

Member
Oct 25, 2017
39,228
I'm not arguing they're the same. I'm not dismissing that we shouldn't believe them. I'm saying, that it's important to discuss what's going on but that the court of law holds more credence than the court of public opinion. And the reason I'm still talking about PC because with PC being more prevalent today, I feel that it lends itself to people believing that the court of public opinion is truly the most important thing and the 100% truth.
How many people have even been arrested by MeToo yet?
 

Ferrs

Avenger
Oct 26, 2017
8,815
Why we keep saying "innocent until proven guilty" like it's an imperative way for people to feel? that's for courts, not individuals.

I wonder if everyone that says "I always innocent until proven guilty" would feel the same if the case hits them closer.

Someone is innocent until proven guilty against the law, not against the public opinion. You can't change that.
 

ashep

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
1,703
I got a death threat via PM and mods wouldn't even let me discuss that so.....
 
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gozu

Member
Oct 27, 2017
3,202
America
#believewomen shouldn’t have to be explained any more than #blacklivesmatter but here we are. People contort themselves with all sorts of mental gymnastics to whip out some tried and true whataboutism whenever uncomfortable topics like sexual abuse and sexual assault of women, and the perpetual effects of institutional and systemic racism that affects minorities, in particular black people in America. Anything to downplay it and shift blame/onus to the victims.

It’s frustrating, because it’s clear to anyone willing to engage in good faith that #believewomen does not mean “women never lie, have never lied, and will never lie, so believe everything that comes out of their mouths and disbelieve the accused regardless of what they say in their defense.” It’s a simple call to take a woman’s accusations of sexual assault seriously, because history has shown us that false sexual assault/rape allegations are 1, very rare, and 2, tend to cause more blowback to the victims coming forward than the accused. Especially in the instances where their abuser is in a position of power over them (this could be a parent, a boss, a politician, and yeah, an actor who’s influence can literally make or break your career), the victims are almost always ostracized and ridiculed and called “liars” or “gold digging whores” just trying to get their 15 minutes of fame and a sweet sweet payday.

And we wonder why victims stay quiet for years, even decades, and only come forward when they feel they may be “safe” from their abuser, with the bitter irony being that by waiting so long, the statute of limitations is up, and nothing can be done to the abuser, legally. Even worse is that in the cases of sexual assault and abuse, evidence is almost never present because of the nature of most sexual assaults/sexual abuse.

The hostile and toxic environment victims expose themselves to when they finally find the strength to speak out against their abuser is disgusting. And that’s for the victims that come forward. Imagine how many more victims stay quiet because of the reactions of some people in threads like this. Not being believed when you live with the effects of your abuse for the rest of your life, and knowing that coming forward will more than likely make things worse for you, not your abuser, who will probably go unpunished, is indescribably awful, and emotionally scarring.

#believewomen isn’t just a catchy hashtag for likes on social media. It’s a tool for victims and those who legitimately support the victims to empower them and embolden them so maybe they won’t feel so isolated and alone, and are able to dig deep and find the strength to say, “this person abused me, and I’m not going to stay silent anymore.” Or at the very least, give them support and strength to go forward with their lives. I can’t say there is a woman in my life that wasn’t sexually abused at some point in their lives, and being there for them (as well as living with my own sexual abuse) is about all we can really do. It’s not always about justice, Internet justice or legal justice. But if we can stop predators like Franco and Spacey and Weinstein from being in those positions of power that allowed them to prey on innocents unchecked for so long, as well as shift the culture that allows these predators to wield so much power? Sign me up to burn it all down.

So many stories of abuse float around Hollywood circles, but very few names are spoken aloud. Those days are changing. Good. Out them all. I don’t give a fuck how much you enjoy their movies. If it was your son or daughter, or niece or nephew, or brother or sister being abused by these assholes, would you still be using mental gymnastics to look your loved one in the face and say, “Well, it wasn’t that bad, right? You knew what you signed up for, daughter. Just suck his dick when he wants,” because this dude made a movie you liked? Pathetic.

The amount of people willing to turn and look the other way so they can keep watching a tv show is disgusting and disheartening.
I agree with everything you say (and you say it well) but lumping Franco with Weinstein the straight up rapist and Spacey the child molester is off-putting.

Those last two deserve criminal trials and jail time while Franco and Louie deserve public opprobrium, civil suits and to lose money to those they mistreated.
 

kliklik

Member
Oct 26, 2017
330
I thought we all already knew Franco was a skeevy dude. In fact when I saw him at the Globes, I said out loud "did everyone forget that he's a gross creep?" He's also embraced playing seedy creeps lately (Spring Breakers, Homefront, Why Him, The Deuce, etc.) and I have to wonder how much of it is a stretch for his acting skills.

A large problem is that the environment of the movie industry is ripe for exploitation, in that the roles available for women are more likely to demand a lack of clothing than those open to men, and there are fewer roles for women overall, and fewer speaking roles for women. From a quick google search on recent stats from the New York Film Academy:

• only 30.8% of speaking characters are female
• 28.8% of women who appear on screen wore sexually revealing clothes (vs. 7% of men)
• 26.2% of female actors get partially naked (vs. 9.4% of male actors)
• only 10.7% of movies feature a balanced cast where half the characters are female.[1]

Another study by USC Annenberg found there's an average of 2.3 male characters for every female character, and "teenage females (13‐20 yr olds) were just as likely to be depicted in sexually revealing clothing and with some nudity as young adult females (21‐39 yr olds)."[2]

So it's unsurprising that these women take serious acting classes and then find themselves only being offered roles as prostitutes or strippers. There is an undercurrent of exploitation when you have powerful men as writer-directors who are writing female characters into films such that if a young non-famous actress wants to land a part, she has to show her breasts and vagina to him. (We already know that was happening with GoT when producers demanded the director change scenes to make actresses take off their clothes because they wanted to see them full-frontal naked, and no-one batted an eye.)[3]

We need to start thinking about how our entertainment appetites help perpetuate sexual exploitation of vulnerable young actors by powerful male directors/writers/producers.


[1] https://jezebel.com/women-are-more-likely-to-be-half-naked-on-screen-and-ot-1472083619
[2] http://www.elle.com/culture/movies-tv/news/a47090/women-underrepresented-in-film-study-usc/
[3] http://www.vulture.com/2012/06/game-of-thrones-nudity-nude-scenes.html
 

GonzoFro

Banned
Oct 27, 2017
38
User banned (2 days): comparing women speaking out about sexual assault to the Salem Witch Trials
Why we keep saying "innocent until proven guilty" like it's an imperative way for people to feel? that's for courts, not individuals.

I wonder if everyone that says "I always innocent until proven guilty" would feel the same if the case hits them closer.

Someone is innocent until proven guilty against the law, not against the public opinion. You can't change that.
The Salem With hunts were all based on court of public opinion which both men and women lied to accuse their neighbors of actions they deemed unfit for society and look where that got us.

Now almost 150 years later we are doing the same thing and acting no different.
Court of public opinion has never worked and never will. It only creates an illusion of justice.
 

Ferrs

Avenger
Oct 26, 2017
8,815
The Salem With hunts were all based on court of public opinion which both men and women lied to accuse their neighbors of actions they deemed unfit for society and look where that got us.

Now almost 150 years later we are doing the same thing and acting no different.
Court of public opinion has never worked and never will. It only creates an illusion of justice.
I don't even know where do you see I said that we should prosecute people based on the court of public opinion. I merely said that people have different opinions, and with that, the innocent until provent guilty, something that is and should be prevalent in a trial, doesn't apply for individuals opinions. I and everyone else are free to think X person is innocent or guilty, we are not judges.

We are not 1600 anymore, no one is gonna get burnt because people think something bad about them.
 

Morrigan

Armoring
Moderator
Oct 24, 2017
12,106
I got a death threat via PM and mods wouldn't even let me discuss that so.....
You were told to report the PMs. The sender of those threats (who sent similar threats to various random people) was then immediately perma-banned.

So, what are you insinuating here exactly?
 

Figboy

Associate Game Designer
Verified
Oct 25, 2017
1,322
Los Angeles, CA
I agree with everything you say (and you say it well) but lumping Franco with Weinstein the straight up rapist and Spacey the child molester is off-putting.

Those last two deserve criminal trials and jail time while Franco and Louie deserve public opprobrium, civil suits and to lose money to those they mistreated.
I think it’s fair to lump him and Louie in with the Spacey/Weinstein crowd because it’s still an instance of abuse of power, and manipulating individuals because of the balance of power. If Franco was some schmoe on the street trying to coerce women to take off their clothes and trying to remove their panties, it wouldn’t fly. Instead, he’s a rich, famous, powerful young filmmaker in Hollywood, and he’s using that to prey on those lower than him in the Hollywood hierarchy. The incident with him removing their plastic vagina protectors during a sex scene makes it fair game to me to put him in the creep category with Spacey. That was sexual assault. The genital guards are there to protect actors and actresses during sex scenes, and he removed them without their consent.

For me, it’s not about legality or prosecuting them (not that I don’t want them to be prosecuted, but I know how hard it is to get justice for cases where most of it will boil down to “he said/she said,” with little to no evidence to prove the accusers case), but about working to eliminate the culture that allows creeps and serial abusers like Franco, Spacey, Louis, and Weinstein to prosper. Drawing a clear line in the sand that behavior like Louis CK’s, and Franco’s isn’t acceptable period, we’re inching toward an environment that is safer for actors and actresses to perform and do their jobs. It’s a job, not a party. I get that it’s a cool job, but it’s a job nonetheless.

Sure, there are various definitions of sexual assault and sexual abuse, and these actors being accused of them are obviously not being accused of 100% the same thing (that’s not how t works), but abuse is abuse, and Franco and Louis are abusers, and sexual abusers at that. One of the really damaging things when it comes to highlighting sexual abuse is that people have too narrow of a definition of what sexual abuse is, and when victims try to define it, they either get told, “well, that’s not that bad,” or “hur dur, so, what, I can’t even wink at a woman anymore?, hur dur!” We need to open our minds up to the notion that sexual abuse and assault isn’t just raping someone or forcing yourself onto someone. It’s a wide range of inappropriate and unsolicited behaviors toward a victim that is clearly not interested in sex or sexual things.

If I walked into my job interview last year, and my interviewer was buck fucking naked, I’d say that was sexual abuse in some way. Or if he/she was masturbating when I walked in, or asked if they could masturbate while they interviewed me, that’s assault. If they said I’d have to be willing to work with my shirt off or nude in order to get the job, that’s still abuse. There’s no scale ranging from “not that bad - bad.” It’s all abuse, it’s all bad, and they are all abusers.
 
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Oct 27, 2017
2,296
It's pretty obvious when you watch the Room too. I find the movie hilarious but 3 (!!) Long shitty skinemax style sex scenes in the first 20 minutes and the script is rife with misogynistic attitudes towards women
"Beat her up so bad she ended up at a hospital on Guerrero Street."

"Ha ha!"

yea... Dude isn't a beacon of progressive ideology.