Jason Kingsley: Epic is "paying through the nose" to build its store

olag

Member
Oct 28, 2017
349
I buy games on the epic store, and have no issues with the store currently. Any publisher running a business, especially if you're using the unreal engine would sign up for Epic first to save money. It's common sense so there's no reason to hate anyone for doing so.
Any decision can be justified as sound business, the reality unfortunately is that publisher's much as they would want to wish otherwise, dont exists within a vacuum and customers are not sentient wallets. Value has to be shown to end users and in this case its not.
 

Lothars

The Fallen
Oct 25, 2017
4,107
The PC gaming community pushed back against Steam when it launched too. People eventually gave up on being mad about that platform. We'll see what time, added features, etc does here.
I see a world where epic stops supporting their store before it gets to a point that it's worth using because it's just not financially worth it and they will probably say at that time that all pc gamers are "pirates" again just because they didn't take over. I don't see them sticking it out for the long haul.

That's extremely revisionist.

People pushed back against Digital Distribution in general, not against Steam specifically.

Digital distribution is not a new thing now. There's no excuse for Epic store missing extremely basic features that Steam has had for over a decade. Epic store is extremely below the industry standard in terms of functionality and features.

Valve have spent the last 15 years earning people's trust with an extremely customer-centric approach, and lots of pioneering features.

During this time Epic accused PC gamers of just being pirates, and stopped releasing games on PC.

PC gaming is now a booming business, and Valve had a large hand in that. Now Epic want a piece of the pie, but are offering consumers absolutely nothing of value.
You are right on with this post.
 
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morningbus

Member
Oct 31, 2017
185
I'm gonna give Tim Sweeney and friends a PR-spin freebie here: start calling Steam a kleptocracy. It makes about as much sense as calling them a monopoly or an oligopoly.
 

MechaBreaker

Member
Jun 26, 2018
1,529
I buy games on the epic store, and have no issues with the store currently. Any publisher running a business, especially if you're using the unreal engine would sign up for Epic first to save money. It's common sense so there's no reason to hate anyone for doing so.
This reads like astroturfing, lol.

Time and time again it's been demonstrated that going exclusive to Epic comes hand-in-hand with a big pile of money, and it's my understanding that this is the actual chief reason for why developers and publisher go exclusive. Any other benefits pale in comparison.
 

pants

Avenger
Oct 27, 2017
913
I don’t really game regularly on PC beyond exclusives, so I have no real skin in the game, but this should be considered fairly unsurprising and standard business practice:

  • Company strikes a proverbial gold mine (Fortnite)
  • Company starts to think about how to invest that gold into an ecosystem which will continue to pay out after the gold mine dries up (Epic Game Store)
  • Company uses its war chest to brute force adoption, so by the time they need to rely on it theres a stable userbase in place (exclusives, “free” games, etc)
I know it sucks for people who want to stay on one platform but competition is ultimately a good thing.
 

StereoVSN

Member
Nov 1, 2017
4,438
Eastern US
Any decision can be justified as sound business, the reality unfortunately is that publisher's much as they would want to wish otherwise, dont exists within a vacuum and customers are not sentient wallets. Value has to be shown to end users and in this case its not.
"Yes, we are dumping toxic waste into water runoff but it's solid business".
"We know smoking causes cancer and we are running campaigns to get even kids addicted. Hey, it's solid business".

Indeed, anything can be classified as solid business. At same time I, as a customer, don't have to give their solid business the light of day, both for Epic and the developers taking their cash.
 

Scuffed

Member
Oct 28, 2017
3,611
The money should be going into making the storefront better. As it stands now the Epic store is the worst one out there and is completely featureless. The strategy to not make a good product but instead force people to use it through exclusivity is misguided and a bad decision imo.
 

Hamchan

The Fallen
Oct 25, 2017
2,549
Haha I actually respect this guy for being upfront about it.

So many other devs are so patronising by trying to fool the consumer that it is all for their own good, which makes this honesty very refreshing.
 

AshenOne

Member
Feb 21, 2018
559
Thats pretty shitty jason, Epic ruining PC gaming space isn't good for business either but well money is money i guess?
 

olag

Member
Oct 28, 2017
349
I don’t really game regularly on PC beyond exclusives, so I have no real skin in the game, but this should be considered fairly unsurprising and standard business practice:

  • Company strikes a proverbial gold mine (Fortnite)
  • Company starts to think about how to invest that gold into an ecosystem which will continue to pay out after the gold mine dries up (Epic Game Store)
  • Company uses its war chest to brute force adoption, so by the time they need to rely on it theres a stable userbase in place (exclusives, “free” games, etc)
I know it sucks for people who want to stay on one platform but competition is ultimately a good thing.
You know Im continually impressed by large game industry companies, not by the sheer amount of revenue they make because oh boy thats another can of worms all together, no Im more impressed by how inlarge they have managed to successfully convince gamers and journalists that by their sheer existence they are keeping the games industry afloat and that anything they do should be ignored for the greater good.
 

sheaaaa

Member
Oct 28, 2017
713
How did Klei peddle bullshit lmao
They even are going to have EA on Steam, and whoever buys the game in one store will be gifted it in the other during both Alpha and EA period.
From their FAQ:

After rebooting the game, Epic approached us as a partner and we felt that this fit well with our process of going from Alpha to garner feedback before putting it on all platforms.
IMO that's in line with all the bullshit other developers who have taken the money are saying. Good on Klei that they're giving Steam keys. It doesn't change the fact that Kingsley is possibly the only dev so far honest enough to tell the truth.
 

Dinjoralo

Member
Oct 25, 2017
2,010
The money should be going into making the storefront better. As it stands now the Epic store is the worst one out there and is completely featureless. The strategy to not make a good product but instead force people to use it through exclusivity is misguided and a bad decision imo.
That's basically what Microsoft was doing, for about three years after Windows 10 came out. Only they didn't really pay anyone to go on board with the Universal Windows ecosystem, they just kind of let it languish.
I see a world where epic stops supporting their store before it gets to a point that it's worth using because it's just not financially worth it and they will probably say at that time that all pc gamers are "pirates" again just because they didn't take over. I don't see them sticking it out for the long hall.
Correction, long haul. But this is what I predict too. All Epic is doing is an extension of the very short sighted mindset a lot of rich companies have.
 

Coolade

Member
Oct 27, 2017
252
This reads like astroturfing, lol.

Time and time again it's been demonstrated that going exclusive to Epic comes hand-in-hand with a big pile of money, and it's my understanding that this is the actual chief reason for why developers and publisher go exclusive. Any other benefits pale in comparison.
"Yes, we are dumping toxic waste into water runoff but it's solid business".
"We know smoking causes cancer and we are running campaigns to get even kids addicted. Hey, it's solid business".

Indeed, anything can be classified as solid business. At same time I, as a customer, don't have to give their solid business the light of day, both for Epic and the developers taking their cash.
Not just a big pile of money but epic also offers a minimum sales guarantee so even if you don't buy the game on Epic, it doesn't actually send a message, the developer/publisher are still covered. And ultimately I used to be in the same boat as everyone quoting me but it's honestly not that bad? I wasnt happy about them making deals either but its business. Like its not exclusive to another platform, just click on the game, it plays. No big deal? I know posting this here is a lost cause but just offering a different perspective outside this bubble. Majority of my friends on PC buy and play games on Epic and don't mind at all.
 

aeolist

Member
Oct 27, 2017
3,243
I don’t really game regularly on PC beyond exclusives, so I have no real skin in the game, but this should be considered fairly unsurprising and standard business practice:

  • Company strikes a proverbial gold mine (Fortnite)
  • Company starts to think about how to invest that gold into an ecosystem which will continue to pay out after the gold mine dries up (Epic Game Store)
  • Company uses its war chest to brute force adoption, so by the time they need to rely on it theres a stable userbase in place (exclusives, “free” games, etc)
I know it sucks for people who want to stay on one platform but competition is ultimately a good thing.
"competition is good" is such a trite thing to post. epic has demonstrated that they want to replace steam as the dominant vendor on windows, which would come with any number of problems for the end user.

1. they're not as open as steam so smaller devs would have a harder time accessing the market
2. they're not on linux so those users get shafted entirely
3. they have seemingly no interest in the kinds of features steam provides like the controller API and cloud storage for saves and screenshots
4. epic generally and sweeney in particular seem to be doing this in a rushed and slapdash fashion which is leading to weird compromises and backtracks all over the place, not making me feel comfortable trusting them with a big library of games and lots of my money the way steam has proven trustworthy

and probably more i can't think of off the top of my head. steam has plenty of problems and i've sure as hell had my complaints with them but i honestly think replacing steam with EGS would make things worse for most people, including a lot of devs.
 

Lothars

The Fallen
Oct 25, 2017
4,107
That's basically what Microsoft was doing, for about three years after Windows 10 came out. Only they didn't really pay anyone to go on board with the Universal Windows ecosystem, they just kind of let it languish.

Correction, long haul. But this is what I predict too. All Epic is doing is an extension of the very short sighted mindset a lot of rich companies have.
I didn't even notice I typed it in wrong, thanks for catching that.
 

Demacabre

Member
Nov 20, 2017
1,974
"Hey! I do have principles.... and a price. Whichever is higher wins."

I fucking hate this industry. It'a apparent most companies care fuck all about consumers. The exceptions really stand out and I hope they get the spotlight they deserve. (Seriously, please support the devs that buck the trend and place their customer base first and appreciate the customer). I'll start thinking about the devs when they start thinking about the consumer.

So yes, fuck the devs that don't give a rats ass about consumers right next to the pubs and Epic. Fuck the press too for being the defense infomercial for the EGS's bullshit.
 
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Lothars

The Fallen
Oct 25, 2017
4,107
Not just a big pile of money but epic also offers a minimum sales guarantee so even if you don't buy the game on Epic, it doesn't actually send a message, the developer/publisher are still covered. And ultimately I used to be in the same boat as everyone quoting me but it's honestly not that bad? I wasnt happy about them making deals either but its business. Like its not exclusive to another platform, just click on the game, it plays. No big deal? I know posting this here is a lost cause but just offering a different perspective outside this bubble. Majority of my friends on PC buy and play games on Epic and don't mind at all.
Your not offering a differing perspective. Your offering a perspective that is overlooking the issues and giving epic a free pass for no reason.
 
Oct 25, 2017
12,165
Sweden
"Yes, we are dumping toxic waste into water runoff but it's solid business".
"We know smoking causes cancer and we are running campaigns to get even kids addicted. Hey, it's solid business".

Indeed, anything can be classified as solid business. At same time I, as a customer, don't have to give their solid business the light of day, both for Epic and the developers taking their cash.
jesus

take a step back and reflect

gaming storefront exclusivity is not, in fact, comparable to actual criminal activity
 

thebishop

Member
Nov 10, 2017
1,336
I see a world where epic stops supporting their store before it gets to a point that it's worth using because it's just not financially worth it and they will probably say at that time that all pc gamers are "pirates" again just because they didn't take over. I don't see them sticking it out for the long hall.
It's interesting how in Stadia threads there's intense fear and distrust about Google shutting down and players losing access to their games. Meanwhile certain posters think it's nothing to buy games on Epic's store, which Tim Sweeney is openly talking about as a pressure tactic to get Steam to change their revenue percent.

If Steam committed to a permanent 88% revenue share for all developers and publishers without major strings attached, Epic would hastily organize a retreat from exclusives (while honoring our partner commitments) and consider putting our own games on Steam.
So how seriously is Epic going to take improving their platform when they're selling way more units on Steam in this scenario?
 

z1ggy

Member
Oct 25, 2017
1,376
Argentina
I don’t really game regularly on PC beyond exclusives, so I have no real skin in the game, but this should be considered fairly unsurprising and standard business practice:

  • Company strikes a proverbial gold mine (Fortnite)
  • Company starts to think about how to invest that gold into an ecosystem which will continue to pay out after the gold mine dries up (Epic Game Store)
  • Company uses its war chest to brute force adoption, so by the time they need to rely on it theres a stable userbase in place (exclusives, “free” games, etc)
I know it sucks for people who want to stay on one platform but competition is ultimately a good thing.
Difference is companies usually use brute force adoption to gain traction with consumers, Epics strategy isnt working as intended (thats why they have to change some things such as doing a Mega sale or going after Kickstarter games)

There has been always competition on the PC space. A lot of us just dont like dealing with EGS shit while at the same time we have multiple launchers on our systems.

Anyways, Epic can do all the shit they want because it isnt working and their store will have it rough from now on: MS released xbox app, launches their bigger games on Steam, Epic didnt secure any major hit on E3, next year new consoles coming up, Valve bringing up some great features (Steam Labs, VR) and so on.
 

WarRock

Member
Oct 25, 2017
5,837
From their FAQ:



IMO that's in line with all the bullshit other developers who have taken the money are saying. Good on Klei that they're giving Steam keys. It doesn't change the fact that Kingsley is possibly the only dev so far honest enough to tell the truth.
There's nothing bullshitty (bullshittery?) about what precedes that quote though:
Klei has a history of partnering with new distribution platforms when starting new projects, for example the Don’t Starve Alpha was only available on the Chrome Webstore, and the Invisible Inc. Alpha was only available through the Humble Widget as a direct download.
If someone is mad at Klei for Griftlands Alpha, why is that someone ignoring the previous games where they did the same?

Anyway, I really don't think a beta/alpha/EA timed exclusivity is anywhere close to release exclusivity, so maybe I am just biased.
 

AshenOne

Member
Feb 21, 2018
559
At least he is honest about it unlike some other dev houses that spin that Epic bullshit about great competition, ultimate platform for their game to guarantee success etc.
I know that, thats why i ain't talking shit about him but even then supporting epic is unforgivable unless there's a dev that REALLY needs that money to survive.
 

MechaBreaker

Member
Jun 26, 2018
1,529
Not just a big pile of money but epic also offers a minimum sales guarantee so even if you don't buy the game on Epic, it doesn't actually send a message, the developer/publisher are still covered. And ultimately I used to be in the same boat as everyone quoting me but it's honestly not that bad? I wasnt happy about them making deals either but its business. Like its not exclusive to another platform, just click on the game, it plays. No big deal? I know posting this here is a lost cause but just offering a different perspective outside this bubble. Majority of my friends on PC buy and play games on Epic and don't mind at all.
No seriously, are you getting paid to say this?

I don't care about sending a message to the developers. I'm just not going to support things I don't want to support, EGS being one of those things. And developers that try to blow smoke up my ass about why they went exclusive.
 

Lothars

The Fallen
Oct 25, 2017
4,107
It's interesting how in Stadia threads there's intense fear and distrust about Google shutting down and players losing access to their games. Meanwhile certain posters think it's nothing to buy games on Epic's store, which Tim Sweeney is openly talking about as a pressure tactic to get Steam to change their revenue percent.



So how seriously is Epic going to take improving their platform when they're selling way more units on Steam in this scenario?
If the exclusives were doing so well for Epic, they would be promoting it in every instance instead it's barely talked about. Steam doesn't need to do anything because Epic isn't making a difference and once the exclusivity period ends for most of the games, EGS will matter less and less because I bet you more developers will keep noticing how the long term effects are not worth the short term gain.
 

MissCauthon

Member
Oct 25, 2017
717
Yeah the issue is they aren't putting the money in on consumer friendly ideas and features.
Are they not giving away free games every week tho? I mean last I checked PS4 and Xbox charge me for free games, and Valve sure as hell never gave me anything free.

It's busyness and people should simple vote with their wallet. If a dev decides to screw you, just don't give them your money. It is so simple...
 

ArnoldJRimmer

Member
Aug 22, 2018
1,190
Still amazed that they have nothing even close to resembling an answer to the question of "If a game is on Epic store and Steam/other stores, what reason would a customer have for choosing Epic Store?"

They're throwing huge sums of money around to generate negative sentiment from their target audience.

Edit: and what happens when the fountain of money dries out? They've trained developers to not put their games on Epic Store without a big upfront payment, and they're only attracting customers by removing alternatives.
Epic/Sweeney has said, many times that we are NOT their target customers. Publishers are. We are the product, and they figure they can strong arm us into using their store if a bunch of games only come to their store. They have zero interest in catering to us in any way.
 

LewieP

Member
Oct 26, 2017
7,421
Are they not giving away free games every week tho? I mean last I checked PS4 and Xbox charge me for free games, and Valve sure as hell never gave me anything free.

 

thebishop

Member
Nov 10, 2017
1,336
I don’t really game regularly on PC beyond exclusives, so I have no real skin in the game, but this should be considered fairly unsurprising and standard business practice:

  • Company strikes a proverbial gold mine (Fortnite)
  • Company starts to think about how to invest that gold into an ecosystem which will continue to pay out after the gold mine dries up (Epic Game Store)
  • Company uses its war chest to brute force adoption, so by the time they need to rely on it theres a stable userbase in place (exclusives, “free” games, etc)
I know it sucks for people who want to stay on one platform but competition is ultimately a good thing.
If you mainly game on console, then imagine if Xbox One had all the features of Xbox One, but PS4's OS only had the feature set of a Gamecube. And then Sony went and bought up a bunch of strategic exclusives.

That's the deal being offered to PC players right now, and you're calling it "competition". It's actually a failure to compete. And this from the makers of literally the best rapid development tool in the world. There's no excuse for this, it's just a 0-effort corporate political game.

BTW, about that "competition"...

 

Vagabond

Member
Oct 26, 2017
1,073
United States
I'm still unclear of Epics purpose and future. Their goal is to get Valve to stop skimming 30% of the revenue off top... but lets say Valve drops it to 15%. Does Epic just go "Alright! #MissionAccomplished" and close their store and act like it never happened? Is that why they're focused on taking all this money to buy exclusives, hand out freebies and try to get eyes on its store - but slow to address the shortcomings of digital stores?

And what do they benefit from that exactly? Will they stop giving away their toolkits for free?
 

olag

Member
Oct 28, 2017
349
Not just a big pile of money but epic also offers a minimum sales guarantee so even if you don't buy the game on Epic, it doesn't actually send a message, the developer/publisher are still covered. And ultimately I used to be in the same boat as everyone quoting me but it's honestly not that bad? I wasnt happy about them making deals either but its business. Like its not exclusive to another platform, just click on the game, it plays. No big deal? I know posting this here is a lost cause but just offering a different perspective outside this bubble. Majority of my friends on PC buy and play games on Epic and don't mind at all.
And I would ask you look beyond the current convenience bubble and ask how the success of game store which:
  1. lacks some basic user features and ignores linux users
  2. adds additional costs to customers in certain regions
  3. only targets games with an already established user base
  4. Moneyhats games which have already been announced/kickstarted for specific platforms
  5. encourages the buying and selling of third party titles (supported by fucking huge publishers) without any significant reinvestment in smaller games studios
I get that you and your friends have no issues with the store because it doesnt effect you directly but try to imagine what Epic's success will mean for pc gaming as a whole.
 

thebishop

Member
Nov 10, 2017
1,336
If the exclusives were doing so well for Epic, they would be promoting it in every instance instead it's barely talked about. Steam doesn't need to do anything because Epic isn't making a difference and once the exclusivity period ends for most of the games, EGS will matter less and less because I bet you more developers will keep noticing how the long term effects are not worth the short term gain.
I really hope so. EGS does legitimately have a bunch of exclusives that I'd want to play on PC, but will probably play on PS4 or Stadia instead. I hope EGS isn't a poison pill for PC gaming in general.

Also, while Tim Sweeney has pained a target on his own back, I don't want to lose sight of bad role EA, Activision, and Ubi are playing in this. Their pathetic PC launcher apps are just as much of a problem as EGS in fracturing the PC gaming experience.
 

Peff

Member
Oct 25, 2017
690
I'm still unclear of Epics purpose and future. Their goal is to get Valve to stop skimming 30% of the revenue off top...
Their goal is to become Valve. The reason the store is featureless and they're buying exclusives is because, not unlike some here, they thought people would just whine for a week, start buying the exclusive games on EGS and see that they don't REALLY need to be able to recover your 40-hour save if your PC breaks.

Doesn't seem to be working out that way in practice, though.
 

Coolade

Member
Oct 27, 2017
252
And I would ask you look beyond the current convenience bubble and ask how the success of game store which:
  1. lacks some basic user features and ignores linux users
  2. adds additional costs to customers in certain regions
  3. only targets games with an already established user base
  4. Moneyhats games which have already been announced/kickstarted for specific platforms
  5. encourages the buying and selling of third party titles (supported by fucking huge publishers) without any significant reinvestment in smaller games studios
I get that you and your friends have no issues with the store because it doesnt effect you directly but try to imagine what Epic's success will mean for pc gaming as a whole.
I agree with everything you said. I guess I just gave up the fight. It's inevitable. You can't stop fortnite money. So how do you stop them? I'm not trying to wait 6 months to play borderlands 3 or a year to play shenmue 3 after i've been waiting 15 years, or wait to play control, or detroit too human on PC. They grabbed everything I cared about so its a wrap lol. Godspeed to those who can hold out. I haven't regretted caving and enjoying the games.
 

Sheepinator

Member
Jul 25, 2018
5,120
What if they took the millions they are spending on getting games removed from Steam and instead used it to hire more development staff.
They have been hiring more development staff for years, and currently have 211 open job positions.

“We’ve continually hired, slightly more than doubling Epic’s full-time employee base since Fortnite launched in 2017,” Epic’s spokesperson said. “Throughout, we’ve always been eager to hire great people. The limiting factor on hiring is not financial but the speed at which we can find and onboard highly qualified employees."
 
Oct 27, 2017
7,947
I'm still unclear of Epics purpose and future. Their goal is to get Valve to stop skimming 30% of the revenue off top... but lets say Valve drops it to 15%. Does Epic just go "Alright! #MissionAccomplished" and close their store and act like it never happened? Is that why they're focused on taking all this money to buy exclusives, hand out freebies and try to get eyes on its store - but slow to address the shortcomings of digital stores?

And what do they benefit from that exactly? Will they stop giving away their toolkits for free?
How on earth do people fall for this PR stuff? Their goal is to make tons of money, not get Valve to reduce their cut.
 

LewieP

Member
Oct 26, 2017
7,421
They have been hiring more development staff for years, and currently have 211 open job positions.

“We’ve continually hired, slightly more than doubling Epic’s full-time employee base since Fortnite launched in 2017,” Epic’s spokesperson said. “Throughout, we’ve always been eager to hire great people. The limiting factor on hiring is not financial but the speed at which we can find and onboard highly qualified employees."
and it's impossible to use money to expand your ability to onboard?

Hell, they could have quite easily found a studio to outsource Paragon or UT to if they needed all their internal dev teams working on Fortnite.

But they'd rather throw money around to get games pulled from Steam.
 

sheaaaa

Member
Oct 28, 2017
713
There's nothing bullshitty (bullshittery?) about what precedes that quote though:

If someone is mad at Klei for Griftlands Alpha, why is that someone ignoring the previous games where they did the same?

Anyway, I really don't think a beta/alpha/EA timed exclusivity is anywhere close to release exclusivity, so maybe I am just biased.
I can't speak to the reasons they decided to take exclusivity with those platforms. I only know developers taking Epic exclusivity have, with one exception, given in public absolute bullshit statements why they've done so, and this is absolutely in line with that.

I think Klei are doing EGS exclusivity as acceptably as possible to me - only "alpha", giving Steam keys regardless, full release on Steam - but there's really only one reason anyone would put their game on Epic's store and I don't appreciate any developer insulting our intelligence by telling us otherwise.
 

WarRock

Member
Oct 25, 2017
5,837
I can't speak to the reasons they decided to take exclusivity with those platforms. I only know developers taking Epic exclusivity have, with one exception, given in public absolute bullshit statements why they've done so, and this is absolutely in line with that.

I think Klei are doing EGS exclusivity as acceptably as possible to me - only "alpha", giving Steam keys regardless, full release on Steam - but there's really only one reason anyone would put their game on Epic's store and I don't appreciate any developer insulting our intelligence by telling us otherwise.
Sure, but there's actually the other reasoning that is "this is what we usually do, with proof". It's no different than Dragon Quest games always jumping to the most popular platform (that's why 9 went for the DS instead of the PS3, for the anger of many on the internet at the time) for each entry.
 

olag

Member
Oct 28, 2017
349
I agree with everything you said. I guess I just gave up the fight. It's inevitable. You can't stop fortnite money. So how do you stop them? I'm not trying to wait 6 months to play borderlands 3 or a year to play shenmue 3 after i've been waiting 15 years, or wait to play control, or detroit too human on PC. They grabbed everything I cared about so its a wrap lol. Godspeed to those who can hold out. I haven't regretted caving and enjoying the games.
If you do get it then try not bring up the whole"its just another launcher" line. Eventually all things change. Fortnite wont be as popular as it is today and thats what I think is the main motivation for Epic strong arming into the pc market place. These companies arent indestructible. Once the audience has moved on to something else they loose all the power you think they have but only if you dont give it to them now.

If you're not willing to wait, thats fine, it doesn't mean we as a whole shouldn't nor should we ignore companies when they are being assholes.