Jason Momoa says he can’t shoot Aquaman 2 due to protesting (construction of a giant telescope on sacred Hawaiian land)

Dreams-Visions

The Fallen
Oct 25, 2017
13,860
Miami, FL
I think these discussions are healthy but some of the nuance in the current TMT situation is not being communicated.

The TMT project has been in the works for over 15 years, but Mauna Kea was selected as the site back in 2009. Since that time, it has undergone a rigorous environmental impact study and it worked extensively to accommodate the concerns of the local community. For example, the TMT construction site is not located on the exact summit of Mauna Kea, but at a position over a mile away to the NNE. Archeological studies have shown no previous cultural activity or burials at this location, and no species will be impacted by TMT's presence there. Also, the telescope enclosure will not be visible from lower elevations at that location. I believe it will also be painted to blend into the surroundings.

Mauna Kea is arguably the best astronomical observing location on Earth. It is a false equivalence to say it can be just moved to the Canary Islands. Moving TMT there would mean a lesser instrument, one that may not even warrant construction given the cost. Indeed, the weather on La Palma is poorer than on Mauna Kea, meaning fewer clear nights and worse image quality, and the lower elevation of La Palma means some projects, particularly studying exoplanets in the mid-infrared, will not be possible. Management of Mauna Kea has improved dramatically over the years that observatories have been there, with great deference and respect to native Hawaiian concerns. For example, all construction activities are accompanied by further activities to return any disturbed land to its natural state. This includes the decommissioning of telescopes, even TMT, in the future. Note also that the observatories are on public land, and their presence has not restricted access to the summit area to the public.

The native Hawaiians who are currently protesting have a right to do so. The protestors who were arrested were cited for illegally blocking a public road, not because they were protesting. The arrests were done on the third day of protest, after they were asked repeatedly to not block the road. Those who were arrested, especially the elders, were handled very respectfully and soon released - there was no violence. The arresting officers were from local police. The National Guard was called up, but not to interact with the protestors but instead to provide logistical support to the local police effort.

Though Hawaii has had an unfortunate history where native concerns have not been considered by those in power (to put it mildly), the TMT project has tried to work differently. It recognized from the very beginning that native community engagement is important. For example, TMT will be funding the THINK program, providing up to $1M / year to support education within the local community. In addition, it has begun a Workforce Pipeline Program to steer Hawaiians into science and technology jobs. I believe it is also the aim of the project to staff the facility with locals. The project will be an economic benefit to the local community.

TMT followed the rules laid down by the State of Hawaii, including affirmation of its building permit by the Hawaii Supreme Court. It has not acted unilaterally in its development without regard to native concerns. Hopefully, the project will continue to engage with the protestors to communicate its net benefits to Hawaii and its native community. The project and its international backers, however, can only do so much. Ultimately, it will be up to Hawaiians themselves to decide if the project will go forward there.

For further details on the TMT project, see http://www.maunakeaandtmt.org.
Sounds like the best that can be hoped for, though I understand the continuing mistrust. They have decades worth of reasons to be skeptical even if the majority is okay with it.

If a popular vote of some kind is needed to address these concerns and to let everyone be heard, they should do so.
 

Bitmap Frogs

Member
Sep 16, 2018
670
That's pretty easy to say after the fact and if you've never been arrested or had to sit in a jail cell. I have and that's the risk you take.
That's just empty rethoric.

Again, no serious charges are being filed against them, they're risking nothing.

If you're trying to argue that a few guys willing to spend the night in a cell are more significant that half the population, you're a lost cause.
 
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Funyarinpa

Avenger
Oct 26, 2017
7,816
Even if any referandum or such on the issue revealed that the people against the TMT are numerically fewer in Hawaii, would that really change the legitimacy of the grievances that minority has? I doubt it.

And well, people keep mentioning that 80% of the island or some such is populated by non-native Hawaiians. I wonder why that is. I have a feeling colonialism is involved there, which is good enough reason to trust protests over sheer numbers.
 

Televator

Member
Oct 25, 2017
4,934
Isn't she candidate that's more of a conservative than a democrat, but running like a democrat? I don't remember all these candidates.
Tulsi is fucking weird. That’s the best and most polite way I can describe her. She’ll have good strong progressive positions one day, and the next she’s capitulating to Trump during the shutdown and playing the “both sides” angle or meeting with Indian ethno nationalists.The last debate, she sounded like she was targeting a Biden VP spot.
 
Oct 25, 2017
2,200
That's just empty rethoric.

Again, no serious charges are being filed against them, they're risking nothing.

If you're trying to argue that a few guys willing to spend the night in a cell are more significant that half the population, you're a lost cause.
Thanks for the strawman, but I have a dozen posts arguing that the election of the telescope is steeped in colonialism and the post that I was responding to, before you decided to steer us into this pedantic tripe about the meaninglessness of being arrested, looks like it came from the external relations department and completely misses addressing the real concerns of said colonialism. This is beside the fact that you never know what the results are going to be after you get the cuffs slapped on you, but you bet your ass that you're usually booked for something and not let go and told to behave with a wink.

If people are willing to risk their freedom to stop a telescope in this particular context, then maybe there's something to it. Saying that it's no big deal to be arrested or that it wasn't a Real Arrest doesn't change that.
 
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Bitmap Frogs

Member
Sep 16, 2018
670
If people are willing to risk their freedom to stop a telescope in this particular context, then maybe there's something to it. Saying that it's no big deal to be arrested or that it wasn't a Real Arrest doesn't change that.
They're not even spending the night in jail, they get "arrested" then moved off the premises and then they're released. The bulk of the arrests happened over a month ago and they haven't been charged, and that's because the people actually blocking the road where elders and no one's gonna bring a group of 70+ natives in wheelchairs to court.

I'm sure you can muster a better argument than "they're willing to be moved off the road by the police, therefore they're right".

For the record, there's about 2000 protesters while there are more than half a million native hawaiians in the census. Just saying.
 
Oct 25, 2017
2,200
They're not even spending the night in jail, they get "arrested" then moved off the premises and then they're released. The bulk of the arrests happened over a month ago and they haven't been charged, and that's because the people actually blocking the road where elders and no one's gonna bring a group of 70+ natives in wheelchairs to court.

I'm sure you can muster a better argument than "they're willing to be moved off the road by the police, therefore they're right".

For the record, there's about 2000 protesters while there are more than half a million native hawaiians in the census. Just saying.
This...doesn’t refute a single thing I'm saying and only adds additional strawmen.

Protestors not being jailed or put up on charges doesn't change the fact that they were arrested and we're willing to be jailed for protesting. If you want to talk about weak arguments, you're making them by focusing on the pedantry of calling it an arrest and the subsequent release.

That PR piece that was posted implies that the matter is settled, but it obviously isn't when people are willing to be arrested to protest the telescope. Again, that is not a difficult conclusion to come to.

According to your own number of 2000 protesters, that isn't an insignificant number and the reason why their voices should be amplified is specifically because of the colonialism that the original inhabitants experienced and because of that experience, their voices should also carry more weight because they're the fucking victims.
 

Zornack

Member
Oct 29, 2017
695
Stop calling it that. Refute a point made in the post instead of trying to delegitimize it by calling it PR.

implies that the matter is settled
No it doesn't. "Ultimately, it will be up to Hawaiians themselves to decide if the project will go forward there."

Protestors not being jailed or put up on charges doesn't change the fact that they were arrested and we're willing to be jailed for protesting.
What does their willingness to be jailed matter? People are willing to be jailed for protesting abortion clinics, they're still 100% wrong.

I'm not comparing protesting the TMT to protesting abortion, just using it as an example that willingness to be arrested ≠ validity of a protest.
 
Oct 25, 2017
2,200
Stop calling it that.


No it doesn't.



What does their willingness to be jailed matter? People are willing to be jailed for protesting abortion clinics, they're still 100% wrong.

I'm not comparing protesting the TMT to protesting abortion, just using it as an example that willingness to be arrested ≠ validity of a protest.
I thought we were talking about people protesting the continued colonialism and not abortion clinics...cause...you know...CONTEXT MATTERS.

And no, I will continue calling it a PR piece because it reads like one. "We went through all the proper governmental channels and try to be sensitive, but we're going to build the fucking thing anyways because protestors mean jack shit."

It's funny as hell seeing people continually trying to redirect attention from the grievances of the protestors.
 

genjiZERO

Member
Jan 27, 2019
481
Richmond
Even if any referandum or such on the issue revealed that the people against the TMT are numerically fewer in Hawaii, would that really change the legitimacy of the grievances that minority has? I doubt it.

And well, people keep mentioning that 80% of the island or some such is populated by non-native Hawaiians. I wonder why that is. I have a feeling colonialism is involved there, which is good enough reason to trust protests over sheer numbers.
Look into the history of how the US up stole the islands in the first place. It's super fucked up and puts a lot of context to why Native Hawaiians have the grievances they have.
 

-COOLIO-

Member
Oct 25, 2017
1,101
The summit of Maunakea is an exceptional site for astronomical observation, building the TMT there would provide us with exceptionally high quality astronomical data.

But that doesn't justify it.
well, i mean, maybe it kind of does.

it's a cost/value assessment and i'd need to know all the facts before i have an opinion on it.

who owns the land? what percentage of the natives oppose construction? how vehemently do they oppose construction? how valuable is the data that this telescope would provide? etc etc. i could ask a lot more questions.
 

weirder

Avenger
Oct 31, 2017
2,709
I was looking earlier to see if there was other Democratic primary candidate support for the protestors.
Just found that Warren, along with Gabbard and Williamson, has also shown support.