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Jason Momoa says he can’t shoot Aquaman 2 due to protesting (construction of a giant telescope on sacred Hawaiian land)
- Thread starter Arthands
- Start date
Makes sense.
Didn't the TMT project present some sort of environmental impact assessment report? Do you know if it says anything about this?
(I'm not trying to refute you, I just want to understand the circumstances better.)
Bring it here! We mostly killed the native population and 100% killed the native culture of the Canary Islands like five hundred years ago, so there's no sacred land here as long as it is sufficiently respectful with nature after it's done.
Perfect
Was that portion written by Terrence Howard?
Top of Mauna Kea:
Science > "Sacred"
Yeah I kinda suspect most people who haven't been following the saga of this telescope and are now chiming in with a knee-jerk response don't realize there are already twelve others up there. For better or worse, Mauna Kea is one of the best places on the planet to do astronomy. It's not like they picked a sacred site because the land was cheap.
Not sure how he managed the IG post while getting bulldozed alive
The amount of people thinking that Jason Momoa would be able to post to Instagram after getting run over by an effing bulldozer is staggering.
Top of Mauna Kea:
Science > "Sacred"
It ain't as simple as "virtuous science VS dumb rock beating superstitious natives"
Despite assurances there has been mismanagement of the lands. Hazardous chemicals spills and refuse management issues amongst other things and people don't trust these observatories to be continually built and managed with regard for the environment.
I'm conflicted. There isn't really anywhere else in the Pacific to do high fidelity astronomy and our arrays need global coverage.
Honestly it might as well be the land of the sky gods.
Okay this is fair enough
Honestly it might as well be the land of the sky gods.
Okay this is fair enough
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Good for Momoa. But uh, judging by the pic in the OP, that land is already been desecrated? Construction seems pretty far along.
Never said it was. It's also not as simple as "greedy corporation trying to make a buck", which is usually what (justifiably) prompts protests like these and is probably the default assumption of anyone hearing the story for the first time without any context.
The track record at Mauna Kea definitely has not been stellar (lol). I'm conflicted about it too. But these are still eminently solvable issues if treated properly.
Heck, there were protest last time they built telescopes there (in smaller scale than this) and part of the agreement that calmed things down WAS NOT TO BUILD MORE THERE.
Unfortunately we don't yet have the ability to observe the cosmos through the center of the planet from the other side.
I stand behind this train of thought.Top of Mauna Kea:
Science > "Sacred"
I watched the video and her main arguments are, america sucks for taking over Hawaii. Some people built telescopes without permits. There have been accidental chemical spills. Scientists are people too and can also believe in sacred hoobla. Just because we say it will be different doesn't mean it will be. And the crown cherry at the end, she goes on to say their sacred nonsense has value. It doesn't. While I understand there are environmental impacts, this is quite literally being built in order to advance humanity in a very important way and it needs to be judged with that knowledge in mind. She even talks about how this spot is amazing for studying the stars, it's not like this place was selected at random or is being used to pillage natural resources, it's sadly a case of no progress without risk. The risks in situation sound minor and it does sounds like it boils down to superstition vs. a place to commit acts of science. The video didn't sway my opinion, it only reaffirmed it.
It's not superstition, it's cultural relevance. The fact that there is a quarry there where natives built stone tools as well as burial grounds should be more than enough to leave the mountain alone.
I love how you underplay and dismiss the bolded which are all valid points. Advancement of society by shitting on the past and minority group. How edgy of you.
And platitudes without substance are always dangerous to discourse.
Just post the Jurassic Park meme so the degeneration of this discussion can be complete.
America does suck for annexing Hawaii after deposing native rule. Saying it so flipantly as you do is bad look, to put it nicely. Yes, some scientists can actually be considerate human beings who can empathize with other brown and/or poor humans instead of pursuing things in a chauvinist manner that dredges up an ugly history and that is exclusionary to the culture and environmental well being of others here on earth. Otherwise it's a bad way to pursue science. A decent way to do is to at least postpone the building of future observatories and work closely with the local communities to come up with plans to better manage waste and build over decommissioned observatories. You know, include regular people in goddamn high minded pursuits.
If you want to ignore history, and context that is fine too. This country has a long history of fucking over brown people for the name of "progress".
Conflicted about this. Science is important, and there's a reason why astronomers choose Mauna Kea to build telescopes. Ideally both should be possible, honoring the traditions and history of the site and allowing astronomers to benefit from the conditions on the summit. But I understand it's difficult given Hawaii's history
SAVAGE hahahaha wow this post wow amazing :D
OT shame they are building on secret ground :(
You're right, the exploitation of slave labor and displacement of native peoples in service of economic gain on the part of white people is definitely equivalent to building a scientific instrument at the one location in all of the Pacific suitable for astronomical observation on behalf of a diverse international community of scientists and with the support of a majority of the native community.
Direct link for this? If this is accurate it should change discourse.
Top of Mauna Kea:
Science > "Sacred"
lol, is this real? Seems like these protests are a little too late.
Certainly looks like sacred land to me, I was pretty sympathetic towards the cause but this really changes the entire perspective. It's different when there's a friggin fleet of telescopes already there, not quite the untainted virgin soil I was expecting.Top of Mauna Kea:
To get a deeper understanding why some of the sentiments expressed here can be deeply problematic and a reproduction of colonial racialized sentiments about indigenous people please read this article: Casumbal-Salazar, I. (2017). A Fictive Kinship: Making "Modernity,""Ancient Hawaiians," and the Telescopes on Mauna Kea. Native American and Indigenous Studies, 4(2), 1-30.
If they dont want it then fucking build it somewhere else. I love science, I would adore a big giant telescope in my back yard. I am not them though.
Edit: A poll shows 77% are FOR it though? And 72% of natives? Tough all around then (if that poll is accurate). I'd like to think they'd be ok with it for the advancement of the human race.
Edit: A poll shows 77% are FOR it though? And 72% of natives? Tough all around then (if that poll is accurate). I'd like to think they'd be ok with it for the advancement of the human race.
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"Well, now that it is already tainted, we can continue building telescopes there" is not a good excuse when the last time they "tainted" the land, it was under promise not to continue with that.
A poll of 800 registered voters is pretty far from an accurate measurement of "the majority" of any part of the community. Let alone the native community which stands at around 10% of the total population of Hawaii (latest census I can find being a total of around 1.4 million people). Do we even have numbers on how many of those 800 registered voters were actually native? Because even as a sample, it's hard to say what 72% of the native population who took the poll actually is in hard numbers.
Kind of sad they can't come to an agreement. Studying the cosmos is one of the most spiritual things we do as modern humans. If anything it should make the site even more sacred.
This is a tough call for me. This really is different than something like the protests over the North Dakota pipeline where a 30 inch crude oil pipeline was posing an actual risk to a native community.
But, I sympathize with the anger. Especially if the protests are largely to represent a bigger struggle that Indigenous Hawaiians have been entirely fucked over for so long.
But, I sympathize with the anger. Especially if the protests are largely to represent a bigger struggle that Indigenous Hawaiians have been entirely fucked over for so long.
Yes, they were built and then the reality of how they've been mismanaged happened. Now, people have reason to not trust more observatories to be managed with respect to the environment and the locals.
The fact that this site is almost uniquely special even today could be something for Native Hawaiians to take pride in and celebrate. It has potential as a symbol of unity between the different cultures.
If and when I see polling data that suggests a different result, I will evaluate and revise my opinion accordingly. Feel free to provide it if you know of any. Until then, I will work with the evidence at hand.