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Jillian Micheals " Avoid the Keto Diet at all costs" - Offers little evidence and analysis

Oct 26, 2017
5,463
> you’re starving yourselves

Yah that’s why it’s called a diet
Keto isn't a 'fad' diet. It fundamentally switches your body over to using fat as the primary source for fuel via eliminating carbohydrates. This in turn allows for people to make much better food choices since carb heavy foods tend to be easiest to overeat and underestimate while fatty, protein rich foods are very satiating.



Controlled fasting is pretty well understood, and the science of IF is growing every day. Nothing wrong with abstaining from food so long as it's done in a safe manner.
Except starvation is known to be bad. Not giving your body the nutrients it needs not a good thing. You can give it all the nutrition it needs while easily losing fat by restricting carbs and eating good whole foods. Why wouldn't you do it?
I'm making a point that if you are preventing obesity in some way then it's defacto "good for you" is a flawed line of thinking

"starving" yourself can mean fasting or not eating for 30 days, and my use of the phrase was "not eating in 30 days"

Your body uses carbs for energy, humans evolved to consume carbs. You're making a brash assumption that just throwing carbs away for ever will never have any health drawbacks.
 

dlauv

Banned
Member
Oct 27, 2017
2,150
Keto's pretty good. You can lose like 5 lbs in one week even while drinking a ton of water. And you feel full. I went on it after the holidays and got super thin. But I started getting like crows feet and stuff even though I was drinking a lot of water. Got off of it and my face looks a little better. idk What was going on - I was eating vitamins.
 
Oct 28, 2017
4,651
You lost 25 lbs in a month? Isn't that kind of insane?
Losing nearly a pound per day isn't really possible. He probably lost 10 lbs, the rest is fecal and water weight. When you're in ketosis you retain way less water I believe. If you're also going from a very unhealthy diet with no fiber to one with plenty you literally lose pounds of shit.
 
Oct 25, 2017
1,043
Chicagoland
I had a scare with Keto.

My eyesight went fkin array for a moment, and I attributed it to the diet

I think it was paleo, but I confuse the two
Sounds like something that should have been discussed with a doctor at the time.😅 I dont imagine diets typically affect eyesight, unless you were light headed for a bit there.
 

Boy

Member
Apr 24, 2018
148
I had a scare with Keto.

My eyesight went fkin array for a moment, and I attributed it to the diet

I think it was paleo, but I confuse the two
That's exactly what happened to me with keto when i was cutting the last few pounds for summer after my bulk. My eyes would start to hurt, get dry and irritate me. Also i had bad breath to go along with that.
 
Oct 25, 2017
4,644
Well I hope neither of you suffers complications from it, because that's a very real possibility.

The point isn't that you over eat on the keto diet, but that you eat until you're full. You stop eating when you "feel full". On a regular diet, if you'er doing this, you'll very rapidly get to an unhealthy point in life.

There is very little research on long term health effects of keto, so committing to doing it long term is insane to me, because it could very well ruin your heart, kidneys, and any other number of complications from cutting out a lot of regularly consumed food groups (like fruits).

I wish the best for you, but in no way is Keto "healthy" outside of making you happy with the number on the scale. God speed.
It's always hilarious to see people throw around fears about lack of long-term research as if the garbage processed food-filled diets that most people eat, which leads them to becoming obese, diabetic, and weighed down by all sorts of other related diseases, had any kind of research done on it before it was widely adopted.
 
Oct 26, 2017
5,463
It's always hilarious to see people throw around fears about lack of long-term research as if the garbage processed food-filled diets that most people eat, which leads them to becoming obese, diabetic, and weighed down by all sorts of other related diseases, had any kind of research done on it before it was widely adopted.
I'm not sure this is helping your argument

Losing nearly a pound per day isn't really possible. He probably lost 10 lbs, the rest is fecal and water weight. When you're in ketosis you retain way less water I believe. If you're also going from a very unhealthy diet with no fiber to one with plenty you literally lose pounds of shit.
Yea, from what I understand it's the same reason why people who fall off ketosis gain around 5 pounds or so rapidly, their body starts holding more water weight.
 
Oct 25, 2017
2,742
Your body uses carbs for energy, humans evolved to consume carbs. You're making a brash assumption that just throwing carbs away for ever will never have any health drawbacks.
The body will happily hum along without any carbs, and it even has a process for converting fat and protein into what little glucose the brain needs to function. Unless you are an athlete looking for maximum performance, you don't need any carbs in your diet. The overabundance of carb heavy foods is a very recent invention if we want to talk about evolution.
 
Oct 25, 2017
4,644
I'm making a point that if you are preventing obesity in some way then it's defacto "good for you" is a flawed line of thinking

"starving" yourself can mean fasting or not eating for 30 days, and my use of the phrase was "not eating in 30 days"

Your body uses carbs for energy, humans evolved to consume carbs. You're making a brash assumption that just throwing carbs away for ever will never have any health drawbacks.
"Humans evolved to consume carbs" is a meaningless statement. Yes, we can eat carbs, but doing so immediately throws our system out of homeostasis and sets off a cascade of hormonal reactions that work to get things back in order by storing away that glucose and getting your blood sugar back under control.

Meanwhile, we can eat zero carbs forever and have no issues because our bodies easily manufacture exactly the right amount of glucose that we need.

Preventing obesity is objectively good. Doing so "at any cost" is obviously not necessarily a good thing, though. Preventing obesity and also not starving yourself seems like a pretty good idea to me.
 
Oct 27, 2017
393
Just ignore the CICO hardliners. They want things to be simple and will not hear otherwise.
But it is that simple, unless you’re going to show me someone on Keto eating well over their TDEE and still losing weight?

I lost 160lb like 8 years ago, regained some due to being in a relationship with bad eating habits and then lost everything I gained once that relationship ended and returned to my previous habits.

All this just doing simple CICO, but what do I know?
 
Oct 28, 2017
4,651
The body will happily hum along without any carbs, and it even has a process for converting fat and protein into what little glucose the brain needs to function. Unless you are an athlete looking for maximum performance, you don't need any carbs in your diet. The overabundance of carb heavy foods is a very recent invention if we want to talk about evolution.
I'm not even criticizing the diet dude. 10 lbs is a great amount for a month, just need to be realistic about what is actually lost.
 
Oct 25, 2017
4,644
I'm not sure this is helping your argument
It's not an argument at all is what I'm trying to say. Most food research is total bullshit anyway. Unfortunately, we need to find what works for ourselves individually, but we can do so in an educated way based off what we know of human physiology and how the body processes food.
 
Oct 26, 2017
5,463
"Humans evolved to consume carbs" is a meaningless statement. Yes, we can eat carbs, but doing so immediately throws our system out of homeostasis and sets off a cascade of hormonal reactions that work to get things back in order by storing away that glucose and getting your blood sugar back under control.

Meanwhile, we can eat zero carbs forever and have no issues because our bodies easily manufacture exactly the right amount of glucose that we need.

Preventing obesity is objectively good. Doing so "at any cost" is obviously not necessarily a good thing, though. Preventing obesity and also not starving yourself seems like a pretty good idea to me.
This is not something you can actually back up and is literally what people have been criticizing the keto diet for.
 
Oct 25, 2017
1,335
NYC
But it is that simple, unless you’re going to show me someone on Keto eating well over their TDEE and still losing weight?

I lost 160lb like 8 years ago, regained some due to being in a relationship with bad eating habits and then lost everything I gained once that relationship ended and returned to my previous habits.

All this just doing simple CICO, but what do I know?
notice he said 'hardliners'. Keto still incorporates CICO, it just makes it easier to maintain by actually adjusting macros.
 
Oct 25, 2017
4,644
But it is that simple, unless you’re going to show me someone on Keto eating well over their TDEE and still losing weight?

I lost 160lb like 8 years ago, regained some due to being in a relationship with bad eating habits and then lost everything I gained once that relationship ended and returned to my previous habits.

All this just doing simple CICO, but what do I know?
I can't show you anyone who is eating over their TDEE and still losing weight, because you will just say that their diet affected their body in a way that raised their TDEE. CICO folks have manufactured their story in a way that they cannot lose an argument. It's a meaningless argument, though.
 
Oct 27, 2017
963
I'm making a point that if you are preventing obesity in some way then it's defacto "good for you" is a flawed line of thinking
While throwing all common sense out the window.
I clearly didn't mean anything short of killing yourself is better than being overweight. You're being intentionally dense.
 
Oct 25, 2017
4,644
This is not something you can actually back up and is literally what people have been criticizing the keto diet for.
You're right. It cannot be said in truth that every single individual in existence will find the same success, but we already have hundreds of thousands of success stories of people restricting or eliminating carbohydrates and reclaiming their health. Some of them have been doing this for decades. Some of their children have been doing it since birth.
 
Oct 25, 2017
2,742
Yes, and? The body is capable of handling lots of things, that doesn't mean they are free from long term health complications.

Want me to post a wiki article of how my liver can process alcohol?
You eat carbs even on the keto diet. It impossible to remove small amounts from many foods. I actually eat more cruciferous vegetables and low carb fruits like berries than most Americans but apparently I'm going to die according to you because I'm not eating bread.

Why don't you tell me the exact carb intake that has been found to increase longevity?
 
Oct 27, 2017
2,053
Well I hope neither of you suffers complications from it, because that's a very real possibility.

The point isn't that you over eat on the keto diet, but that you eat until you're full. You stop eating when you "feel full". On a regular diet, if you'er doing this, you'll very rapidly get to an unhealthy point in life.

There is very little research on long term health effects of keto, so committing to doing it long term is insane to me, because it could very well ruin your heart, kidneys, and any other number of complications from cutting out a lot of regularly consumed food groups (like fruits).

I wish the best for you, but in no way is Keto "healthy" outside of making you happy with the number on the scale. God speed.
This is the uneducated
Just as a one off: Short term studies in young adults treated with ketogenic diets for medical reasons showed an increase in arterial stiffness, which is an early indicator for cardiovascular risks. Most studies show high fat/protein & low carb diets increase your cholesterol and LDL levels (though with some benefits to your lipid profile). I don't think losing some weight quick in the short term is worth potentially risking your heart for. So even if we don't know that it will cause heart problems...why risk it when you could literally just work a little harder and not have that risk at all?

Anyway, I'm out. No one on the diet wants to hear anything other than "this diet is a miracle" so there's literally no reason for me to be in this thread, because I'm definitely not lying to anyone.
We would love to hear well reasoned responses but yours are all straw men finger wagging tut-tutting hot takes the likes of which are up there for dumbest post of the year awards.
 
Oct 25, 2017
2,077
You eat carbs even on the keto diet. It impossible to remove small amounts from many foods. I actually eat more cruciferous vegetables and low carb fruits like berries than most Americans but apparently I'm going to die according to you because I'm not eating bread.

Why don't you tell me the exact carb intake that has been found to increase longevity?
That plate with a salmon fillet and a cup of broccoli, with your dessert of greek yogurt and blueberries is going to make your kidneys explode unless you put a baked potato and french roll on there as well.
 
Oct 25, 2017
7,743
Eh my biggest issue with it is when people use it as an excuse to lose weight without putting a ton of effort. Like ignore carbs but go crazy with meats.

And then they stop and eat normally and regain all the weight. And go back to it again. You need to deal with bad habits first and also exercise.
 
Oct 26, 2017
5,463
You eat carbs even on the keto diet. It impossible to remove small amounts from many foods. I actually eat more cruciferous vegetables and low carb fruits like berries than most Americans but apparently I'm going to die according to you because I'm not eating bread.

Why don't you tell me the exact carb intake that has been found to increase longevity?
Because that's not the point of this?

Why is subtly lacking in some of you guys? The criticism is as a long term diet there is limited knowledge of the full health risks/consequences, not that you're going to die because you didn't have a loaf of bread

When people are claiming that something is practically a miracle solution to the ills of everything a person suffers from (like what is stated in the OP about having higher mental health, reducing stress, better focus), I find it horribly irresponsible to just go along with it. When a group of people are literally incapable of handling any type of challenge or critique, I find it worrying.
 
Oct 25, 2017
2,902
Keto is not a zero carb diet, the arguments in this thread don't even make sense

and Michaels is a shill who wants to sell her products. TBL contestants mostly regained their weight and their metabolism is still fucked years later. She shouldn't be giving advice to anyone

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/27136388

Also, Keto doesn't require a 4:1 ratio of fats to carbs/protein unless you're epileptic and using it for therapy
 
Oct 25, 2017
4,644
Because that's not the point of this?

Why is subtly lacking in some of you guys? The criticism is as a long term diet there is limited knowledge of the full health risks/consequences, not that you're going to die because you didn't have a loaf of bread

When people are claiming that something is practically a miracle solution to the ills of everything a person suffers from (like what is stated in the OP about having higher mental health, reducing stress, better focus), I find it horribly irresponsible to just go along with it. When a group of people are literally incapable of handling any type of challenge or critique, I find it worrying.
It's because that it quite literally what many people who try it experience. It's certainly what I experienced.

Now, it would be irresponsible to claim that it is blanket panacea for everyone, but there is certainly not harm in recommending people give it a try for themselves.

Eh my biggest issue with it is when people use it as an excuse to lose weight without putting a ton of effort. Like ignore carbs but go crazy with meats.

And then they stop and eat normally and regain all the weight. And go back to it again. You need to deal with bad habits first and also exercise.
Those people should have established a new "normal" instead of going back to their old eating habits. That's what I did and I've been going strong on it for close to 8 years. Never been in better shape or health despite getting older.
 
Oct 25, 2017
3,959
Tuscaloosa, AL
Keto is not a zero carb diet, the arguments in this thread don't even make sense

and Michaels is a shill who wants to sell her products. TBL contestants mostly regained their weight and their metabolism is still fucked years later. She shouldn't be giving advice to anyone

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/27136388
Damn peer reviewed research versus a fitness guru; who are we to believe more?
 
Oct 25, 2017
2,077
Because that's not the point of this?

Why is subtly lacking in some of you guys? The criticism is as a long term diet there is limited knowledge of the full health risks/consequences, not that you're going to die because you didn't have a loaf of bread

When people are claiming that something is practically a miracle solution to the ills of everything a person suffers from (like what is stated in the OP about having higher mental health, reducing stress, better focus), I find it horribly irresponsible to just go along with it. When a group of people are literally incapable of handling any type of challenge or critique, I find it worrying.
I asked the thread earlier but didn't get a response, but can you point out the problem with an example of my average menu: eggs with cheese and an avocado for breakfast; nuts and chicken and zucchini in a big spinach salad for lunch; and salmon fillet with a heap of broccoli for dinner, followed by a dessert of greek yogurt mixed with blueberries? Your thesis is that it is dangerous for me to eat like that until the proper studies are conducted?
 
Oct 25, 2017
2,742
Because that's not the point of this?

Why is subtly lacking in some of you guys? The criticism is as a long term diet there is limited knowledge of the full health risks/consequences, not that you're going to die because you didn't have a loaf of bread

When people are claiming that something is practically a miracle solution to the ills of everything a person suffers from (like what is stated in the OP about having higher mental health, reducing stress, better focus), I find it horribly irresponsible to just go along with it. When a group of people are literally incapable of handling any type of challenge or critique, I find it worrying.
OP sounds like they were very insulin resistant, something very common in overweight people. Keto directly attacks that resistance by lowering the insulin response via eliminating the worst food types, improving sensitivity.


I'm open to well rounded critiques of the diet. "I don't know, it might be bad long term guys, nobody is sure" is not really an argument or a critique. It's as woo-woo as it gets.
 
Oct 27, 2017
963
I asked earlier but didn't get a response, but can you point out the problem with an example of my average menu: eggs with cheese and an avocado for breakfast; nuts and chicken and zucchini in a big spinach salad for lunch, and salmon fillet with a heap of broccoli for dinner, followed by a dessert of greek yogurt mixed with blueberries? Your thesis is that it is dangerous for me to eat like that until the proper studies are conducted?
I think it's when you call it keto that it becomes a problem.

If anything, the believers of the status-quo seem to be threatened by the idea that grains don't have to be a major food group.
 
Oct 25, 2017
2,664
i can only speak anecdotally, but i have done several diet/exercise combos before and they would work for a few weeks or months and then the weight loss would come to a screeching halt.

i saw how well Keto was working for EscoBlades and decided to jump in.

been on Keto for a year and the weight loss has been steady well after the sudden drop in the beginning that pretty much every diet has. i should be half the weight i was a few years ago in a few months. my doctor monitors and loves my progress in weight loss and blood pressure and all of my other numbers look great.

people keep asking me what i'm doing and i keep telling them and pointing them in the direction for information and now people i have told have also lost 20, 30, 50 lbs or more.
 
Oct 25, 2017
4,644
I think it's when you call it keto that it becomes a problem.

If anything, the believers of the status-quo seem to be threatened by the idea that grains don't have to be a major food group.
There's a lot of money to be made in selling cheap grain-based "health products" with long shelf lives.
 
Oct 25, 2017
2,742
Please tell me because I can't find one even remotely decent.
Quest (of Quest bar fame) makes a frozen pizza now that is mostly fiber. Pretty good. There's also the Realgood Food chicken crust stuff, but it doesn't ever crisp up like you'd want for a pizza.

There are many almond flour crusts out there that will work.
 
Oct 29, 2017
3,978
Should I be fasting on Keto?

In week 2 and my diet is pretty much egg, cheese, cold cuts, ground meats, asparagus, green beans, shrimp. I was told that to get around the "keto flu" I should eat more salts and was recommended pork rinds as a good snack.

Only dairy outside of cheese is a splash of heavy cream in my coffee.

No fasting yet, though with my appetite being suppressed fairly well so far I can see myself doing it.
 
Oct 26, 2017
5,463
OP sounds like they were very insulin resistant, something very common in overweight people. Keto directly attacks that resistance by lowering the insulin response via eliminating the worst food types, improving sensitivity.


I'm open to well rounded critiques of the diet. "I don't know, it might be bad long term guys, nobody is sure" is not really an argument or a critique. It's as woo-woo as it gets.
This entire debate started because I said there are no long term studies about the effects a keto diet has on someone. I was then linked articles about reductions in epileptic attacks, which has been known for a long time, but has little baring on the actual type of studies the topic of a keto diet for weight loss.

I can find studies that say keto is good for cardiovascular health.

I can find studies that say it's not really currently known the overall cv benefits/risks from keto

I can find studies that say a low-carb diet could be damaging arteries in people with an already high CV risk.
 
Oct 29, 2017
3,978
chicken crust stuff, but it doesn't ever crisp up like you'd want for a pizza.

There are many almond flour crusts out there that will work.
I've done the chicken crust thing and, while it was good, it was more chicken meat loaf with pizza topings.

I looked into almond bread but it just seems like the carb count wasn't worth it. I'm averaging 15 - 20 carbs a day.

One other question if you don't mind asking and you know whats up with the urine tests: I test at random times in the day. Sometimes I come back with 15mmol/l to 40mmol/l. Does it matter when I do the test, if I should get a sample from the middle, etc?
 
Oct 25, 2017
4,644
Should I be fasting on Keto?

In week 2 and my diet is pretty much egg, cheese, cold cuts, ground meats, asparagus, green beans, shrimp. I was told that to get around the "keto flu" I should eat more salts and was recommended pork rinds as a good snack.

Only dairy outside of cheese is a splash of heavy cream in my coffee.

No fasting yet, though with my appetite being suppressed fairly well so far I can see myself doing it.
It's certainly easy to do so. I did one meal a day for about a year, but fell back into a two meal per day routine recently. I didn't really notice a difference in terms of body composition, honestly, but I feel slightly better not eating so much in a single sitting.