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Jillian Micheals " Avoid the Keto Diet at all costs" - Offers little evidence and analysis

Oct 25, 2017
2,319
Should I be fasting on Keto?

In week 2 and my diet is pretty much egg, cheese, cold cuts, ground meats, asparagus, green beans, shrimp. I was told that to get around the "keto flu" I should eat more salts and was recommended pork rinds as a good snack.

Only dairy outside of cheese is a splash of heavy cream in my coffee.

No fasting yet, though with my appetite being suppressed fairly well so far I can see myself doing it.
To get around the "keto flu," if that's what I think it is (headaches and lethargy at the beginning), you should be eating more fat. That's what your body is using as fuel now, and all of those symptoms mean you aren't getting enough of it.
 
Oct 28, 2017
97
I started Keto last March and have lost 89 lbs. It has been the most sustainable diet for me and now I feel like it's a lifestyle for me rather than a diet.
 
Oct 26, 2017
6,080
I asked the thread earlier but didn't get a response, but can you point out the problem with an example of my average menu: eggs with cheese and an avocado for breakfast; nuts and chicken and zucchini in a big spinach salad for lunch; and salmon fillet with a heap of broccoli for dinner, followed by a dessert of greek yogurt mixed with blueberries? Your thesis is that it is dangerous for me to eat like that until the proper studies are conducted?
No the argument is forcing ketosis on your body could have potential health risks which aren't really all that well known or properly researched because using keto for weight loss is relatively new.
 
Oct 25, 2017
2,319
No the argument is forcing ketosis on your body could have potential health risks which aren't really all that well known or properly researched because using keto for weight loss is relatively new.
Ok, but the menu that I listed above forces your body into ketosis. Can you explain what my body is missing with that array of foods?
 
Oct 25, 2017
4,895
This entire debate started because I said there are no long term studies about the effects a keto diet has on someone. I was then linked articles about reductions in epileptic attacks
Stop right there, but wasn't the point of those links (I didn't click them) that people had been on the diet for a long time without issue?
 
Oct 25, 2017
2,946
Should I be fasting on Keto?

In week 2 and my diet is pretty much egg, cheese, cold cuts, ground meats, asparagus, green beans, shrimp. I was told that to get around the "keto flu" I should eat more salts and was recommended pork rinds as a good snack.

Only dairy outside of cheese is a splash of heavy cream in my coffee.

No fasting yet, though with my appetite being suppressed fairly well so far I can see myself doing it.
IF works well with keto because it allows you to eat the same amount of calories in a smaller time window, filling you up more while making food choices and meal planning easier. It also decreases your hunger outside of the eating window as keto tends to naturally blunt your appetite once you are adapted (the body is busy converting your existing fat into fuel) and IF compounds this.

A simple 8 hour window, 12pm to 8pm, works for most people. The smaller the window, the bigger the benefit.
 
Nov 16, 2017
310
I think it's when you call it keto that it becomes a problem.

If anything, the believers of the status-quo seem to be threatened by the idea that grains don't have to be a major food group.
Why wouldn't you call that menu keto? I'm guessing it's between 20 - 50 net carbs.
 
Oct 25, 2017
4,895
No the argument is forcing ketosis on your body could have potential health risks which aren't really all that well known or properly researched because using keto for weight loss is relatively new.
Call it whatever your want (most people probably aren't actually going into ketosis), but carbohydrate restriction as a means to controlling body weight is not new at all.
 
Oct 26, 2017
6,080
Stop right there, but wasn't the point of those links (I didn't click them) that people had been on the diet for a long time without issue?
Jesus, a study that is looking into the reduction of epileptic seizures is not going to be focusing on the arterial health of a person or other CV risks/benefits.

This is literally not that hard to understand.
 
Oct 29, 2017
4,126
Honestly so far the worst part about keto is the social aspect. I can only expect my friends to choose restaurants around my restrictions so much before I'm just the guy eating a small side salad.

But I absolutely have to cut out my drinking so being relegated to drinks straight up or with soda helps in that regard.
 
Oct 25, 2017
2,946
One other question if you don't mind asking and you know whats up with the urine tests: I test at random times in the day. Sometimes I come back with 15mmol/l to 40mmol/l. Does it matter when I do the test, if I should get a sample from the middle, etc?
Excreted ketone levels will drop as you adapt to the diet. It doesn't matter when you do it, but ideally you want it to be as far from your previous meal as possible. Once you become fully fat adapted (90ish days for most people), you may not even notice when you slip in and out of ketosis anymore.

I personally don't bother with the strips.
 
Oct 25, 2017
2,946
Honestly so far the worst part about keto is the social aspect. I can only expect my friends to choose restaurants around my restrictions so much before I'm just the guy eating a small side salad.

But I absolutely have to cut out my drinking so being relegated to drinks straight up or with soda helps in that regard.
There's keto food at pretty much every restaurant. Order a burger and don't eat the bun, for example. It's also okay to have a meal or two a week where you eat carbs. Your body will happily slide back into ketosis.
 
Oct 25, 2017
1,571
No the argument is forcing ketosis on your body could have potential health risks which aren't really all that well known or properly researched because using keto for weight loss is relatively new.
I'd argue that refined carbohydrates is more of a "new" diet thing that humans haven't ever had. During the fat reduction craze starting in the 70s, sugars are what were used to replace fat in foods that made things palatable.

I do concede though that it isn't for everybody and shouldn't be forced. Me however, my body has issues with carbohydrates in terms of constantly craving them. Real keto isn't 0 carbs. You have to get them somewhere, and some people 20 carbs a day, some do 50. I'm at about 30 a day right now. Additionally, supplementing potassium and magnesium is key.
 
Oct 26, 2017
6,080
I'd argue that refined carbohydrates is more of a "new" diet thing that humans haven't ever had. During the fat reduction craze starting in the 70s, sugars are what were used to replace fat in foods that made things palatable.

I do concede though that it isn't for everybody and shouldn't be forced. Me however, my body has issues with carbohydrates in terms of constantly craving them. Real keto isn't 0 carbs. You have to get them somewhere, and some people 20 carbs a day, some do 50. I'm at about 30 a day right now. Additionally, supplementing potassium and magnesium is key.
Oh I completely agree. The low-fat diet craze of the 70's has ruined our food. It's the reason I have practically cut out processed foods from my diet and cook like 95% of my meals from scratch, as well as ditched soda/juices and other shit.

And for all intent and purposes I'm basically have been living a low-carb diet for the last year. It's not enough to go into ketosis, but it's a far cry from your average American's intake.
 
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Oct 27, 2017
1,318
This debate was really interesting to watch. Both doctors citing studies and critiquing them. The non-vegan guy recommends a paleo diet which is a little different to keto, but he responds to some of the criticisms and studies in this thread.
 
Oct 27, 2017
1,013
Honestly so far the worst part about keto is the social aspect. I can only expect my friends to choose restaurants around my restrictions so much before I'm just the guy eating a small side salad.

But I absolutely have to cut out my drinking so being relegated to drinks straight up or with soda helps in that regard.
You can find something to eat almost anywhere. The worst place for me is cheap mexican food. I have a hard time finding something good.
 
Oct 25, 2017
1,571
Oh I completely agree. The low-fat diet craze of the 70's has ruined our food. It's the reason I have practically cut out processed foods from my diet and cook like 95% of my meals from scratch, as well as ditched soda/juices and other shit.

And for all intents and purposes I'm basically have been living a low-carb diet for the last year. It's not enough to go into ketosis, but it's a far cry from your average American's intake.
Yeah, it's also dumb to just load up on crappy fats constantly, and grease. Most of my carbs come from nuts at this point for me, basically. Salad, broccoli, and cauliflower too, but that's mostly just fiber.

I also respect cooking all your food from scratch.
 
Oct 27, 2017
16
I know keto is the hot thing right now but it genuinely works.
Just past the 8 month mark and at 92lbs lost. I am the laziest of ketoers; I don't track numbers, just avoid carbs and sugar and minimal exercise 3 times a week.
I also need a cheat day every few weeks to get over weight loss stalls.
This has been the most sustainable weight loss I have ever used and have no plans on stopping.
 
Oct 26, 2017
6,080
Yeah, it's also dumb to just load up on crappy fats constantly, and grease. Most of my carbs come from nuts at this point for me, basically. Salad, broccoli, and cauliflower too, but that's mostly just fiber.

I also respect cooking all your food from scratch.
Well when you have a 20-25 dollar weekly grocery budget you can't exactly be buying frozen meals or other shit lol
 
Nov 16, 2017
316
Tokyo
I was on it for two years. It made me the best I ever looked. I went from 85kg to 72 kg in 10 weeks. I felt amazing.

I am no longer on the diet. It did make me aware of what I put in my body. I am now on a balanced diet. I'll eat carbs like pasta, sweet potatoes and rice but I don't touch refined sugar. My excema, toilet issues present during my Keto phase ( correlation dne. causation; could have been stress) are gone. I now do a shit ton of exercise and feel great but deep down I wouldn't mind getting back to 74kg considering I'm 82kg now but I am for now, taking a sustainable " everything in moderation" approach.
 
Oct 26, 2017
6,080
Is there an easier way to start keto than just diving into the deep end? Is it workable to have 1-2 carb cheat days a week?
Not really, no. When you knock your body off ketosis you have to restart the process over again, which takes days. Having a cheat day once a month might be manageable, but one to two cheat days a week would prevent any results.
 
Oct 29, 2017
886
USA
I've done Keto before and had a good experience. I recently have gone back to eating Keto in Nov and so far I'm down a bit over 25 pounds. I feel great eating what I feel is sustainable and enjoyable while not feeling starved. Most things are not one size fits all so If she inst into it that's her opinion and I disagree but I still respect her trying to get people healthy.
 
Nov 6, 2017
11
I have lost 100lbs over the past year and a half on keto for what it’s worth. Doctors and blood work checks the whole way, never been healthier.

It’s not a diet as in short term sprint. I have cut a ton of sugar from my food intake and will live like this the rest of my life.
 

-JD-

Avenger
Oct 27, 2017
2,282
Maybe I’m a cynic but I just look at Keto as another cult-like trendy fad. But I suppose it’s here to stay since I’ve been hearing about it for years now.

Still, perhaps I have a bias but I feel like resistance training with adequate carb intake for good muscle growth is the way to go. I suppose though that Keto would be okay for cutting phase. I’d need to see how much it’d affect muscle loss though.
 
Oct 27, 2017
1,013
Is there an easier way to start keto than just diving into the deep end? Is it workable to have 1-2 carb cheat days a week?
I was lazy at first and just avoided foods with obscene amounts of carbs. I'd stick to things with zero or 1-2g per serving and I mostly just ate as much as I wanted. Transitioned to diet soda.
Eventually I needed to change it up to continue losing.

I most recently lost 10lbs over the holiday after a nearly one year plateau.
I'm at around 100lbs lost total.
I put new holes in to my belt when I started until the thing nearly wrapped all around me. Just this week I reached the last hole on my new belt.

Feels good.
 
Oct 25, 2017
4,895
Is there an easier way to start keto than just diving into the deep end? Is it workable to have 1-2 carb cheat days a week?
When I first started carb restriction back in 2011, I did a cheat *meal* per week and found that helped me a lot. Made Sunday nights something to look forward to for sure. I still dropped a ton of weight effortlessly in no time and eventually phased out the cheat meals because they made me feel like shit and I had stopped carving carbs/sugar.
 
Oct 28, 2017
401
You’re an idiot if you think a diet high in saturated & animal fat is healthy and fruit is not. Keto is stupid and dangerous. You can be shredded and destroying your heart. If you want it, go get it big dog.

I’ll stick to a balanced diet, and just lower my carbohydrate consumption after lunch. I enjoy looking good, but I’m not going to shave 10 years off of my life to do so. Cholesterol is the #1 risk factor for atherosclerosis.
 
Nov 5, 2017
1,068
Fiber is what you need (lots of studies are very unambiguous about a high fiber diet lowering incidence of heart disease and colo-rectal cancers) , and it can be difficult to get on Keto, because frankly the easiest source of it is legumes. The recommended fiber intake is about 30g per day which is hard even if you can eat carbs. Keto does actually promote attempting to get fiber in your diet as a counterpoint to carb intake but you're basically cutting off the main sources of it (there's only so many green vegetables you can cram in your maw in a day)

I've done Keto. As a weight loss program it's very effective. I'd actually recommend using Keto to get towards a weight goal then migrating to a high fiber diet disregarding the carbs once you've reached your goal. It's unlikely you'll put on weight at that point (you'll put on a wee bit of water weight), because to eat 30g of fiber per day you're basically using oats, certain fruits, legumes, green vegetables and root veg as a base, so there's a natural cleanness to the diet especially if you take the lessons of keto and avoid sugar as much as possible.
 
Nov 13, 2017
1,579
Londinium
You’re an idiot if you think a diet high in saturated & animal fat is healthy and fruit is not. Keto is stupid and dangerous. You can be shredded and destroying your heart. If you want it, go get it big dog.

I’ll stick to a balanced diet, and just lower my carbohydrate consumption after lunch. I enjoy looking good, but I’m not going to shave 10 years off of my life to do so. Cholesterol is the #1 risk factor for atherosclerosis.
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/m/pubmed/19641727/

Keto lowers LDL cholesterol
 
Oct 27, 2017
2,382
Carbs are quite literally the only unnecessary macro nutrient. Your body requires zero of it. They can be beneficial if you're extremely physically active or need to put on some extra weight to make it through a long period of low food availability.
It is not necessarily healthy for your body to be in a prolonged state of ketosis. On top of that, if you are not being active enough to regularly deplete your glycogen stores, you are a whole other level of unhealthy from being too sedentary.
 
Oct 25, 2017
4,895
I can confirm that my LDL is very low. Plan on getting a yearly blood panel to monitor things going forward.

It is not necessarily healthy for your body to be in a prolonged state of ketosis. On top of that, if you are not being active enough to regularly depleting your glycogen stores, you are a whole other level of unhealthy from being too sedentary.
No, being in ketosis in and of itself does not mean you are healthy, but it certainly doesn't mean the contrary either.

Most people are absolutely not depleting their glycogen stores before eating their next carbohydrate heavy meal.
 
Nov 6, 2017
3,318
It worked great for me. I did a keto bulk and went from 140-160 in 12 weeks (I'm 6'3"). I've been off it for a little over a month and feel better now about my body than I've ever felt in my life.
 
Oct 25, 2017
2,319
Fiber is what you need (lots of studies are very unambiguous about a high fiber diet lowering incidence of heart disease and colo-rectal cancers) , and it can be difficult to get on Keto, because frankly the easiest source of it is legumes. The recommended fiber intake is about 30g per day which is hard even if you can eat carbs. Keto does actually promote attempting to get fiber in your diet as a counterpoint to carb intake but you're basically cutting off the main sources of it (there's only so many green vegetables you can cram in your maw in a day)

I've done Keto. As a weight loss program it's very effective. I'd actually recommend using Keto to get towards a weight goal then migrating to a high fiber diet disregarding the carbs once you've reached your goal. It's unlikely you'll put on weight at that point (you'll put on a wee bit of water weight), because to eat 30g of fiber per day you're basically using oats, certain fruits, legumes, green vegetables and root veg as a base, so there's a natural cleanness to the diet especially if you take the lessons of keto and avoid sugar as much as possible.
Fiber can be an issue, for sure. I eat these:



for the double whammy of providing well over half of the daily recommended fiber intake (26g for this size) , and also as a way to scratch the sandwich itch by making wraps every now and then.
 
OP
OP
Joe2187
Oct 25, 2017
1,363
Fiber is an issue

Thats why im always eating avacados, spinach, chia seeds, almonds (and almond milk) Brussel sprouts (cooked with some salt, butter garlic and pancetta) pistachios (sprinkled atop home made coconut ice cream) edemame, flax seed meal to make breads and doughs, walnuts, okra, and lots and lots of berries.
 
Oct 25, 2017
1,372
Chicagoland
You’re an idiot if you think a diet high in saturated & animal fat is healthy and fruit is not. Keto is stupid and dangerous. You can be shredded and destroying your heart. If you want it, go get it big dog.

I’ll stick to a balanced diet, and just lower my carbohydrate consumption after lunch. I enjoy looking good, but I’m not going to shave 10 years off of my life to do so. Cholesterol is the #1 risk factor for atherosclerosis.
Again what is this fearmongering shit? Holy hyperbole