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Jillian Micheals " Avoid the Keto Diet at all costs" - Offers little evidence and analysis

Oct 28, 2017
189
That's cultish nonsense. There is no such thing as a diet that must be followed "to the letter." Eat well and you'll thrive. If you're able to eat bread, for instance, eat it when you like. It's lovely stuff and you will enjoy life. If you're unable to eat bread, find alternatives but please don't pretend that bread is horrible just because it doesn't work for you.

No offense is intended by me for what I am about to say. So if any is taken please know that.

It is not cultish nonsense. Cultish nonsense is something like doing a water fast for 60 days. Which I have seen people do. That puts you at risk. I also personally consider counting calories as a sole measurement, not heeding the source of said calories, as cultish nonsense as well. Besides, carbs are not just bread. 300 years ago bread was a hell of a lot healthier than the nutrient deprived, has to be “ Enriched “ stuff that is out there now.


Primitive man survived because we as creatures rarely came across fruit or other high sweet items. We are by design built to survive and thrive in a state of ketosis. The human body was built to store sugar as fat if not immediately expended or stored back in muscle beyond what the brain knew it’s daily requirements to be. That fat can then be burned as energy, most important of all for the brain which requires fat for the nervous systems health.

If you truly believe ancient man had an abundance of anything but meat and insects and what few vegetables they could find for food, I’m not sure what to tell you besides maybe ask an anthropologist about the matter.

Sugars are converted quickly and stored as fat. It’s why we have such an epidemic right now. Go in the grocery store and take a serious, hard look around. 80-90% of the food in there I wager is not a form that existed 150 years ago. And that percentage is almost entirely processed high carb, high sugar foods that instantly for most people, get turned into fat stores.

Give me someone who has been on keto faithfully for one year, and someone who has been counting calories as their only measure for diet. I guarantee you the individual following keto will be far healthier and happier compared to the person just counting calories.

The quality of the food you eat as a human being matters. It comprises and goes into our very cellular makeup.

And personally, I would rather be built of protein and healthy veggies compared to Oreos and fast food. I will be proven overwhelmingly healthier in comparison.

I have followed this diet for years. My cardiologist recommended it due to family medical history. My doctors have stated it works. For years now.

That is not cultish nonsense. That is the facts in my life given to me by medical professionals.

Edit: I hate my iPad and it’s autocorrect
 
Oct 25, 2017
4,014
Wouldn't it be more logical to assume that the health issues you just stated were related to your weight pre-diet and not because you're doing keto?
It would if all of those things didn't go away until I reached a normal weight. That's not the case. They all went away within the first month when I was still overweight (although less so). The weight continued to drop for many months afterward until I reached a normal weight.
 
Oct 26, 2017
4,322
It would if all of those things didn't go away until I reached a normal weight. That's not the case. They all went away within the first month when I was still overweight (although less so). The weight continued to drop for many months afterward until I reached a normal weight.
That doesn't really show that keto had anything to do with curing those symptoms. I don't see any relation between using carbs as energy and getting colds.
 
Oct 25, 2017
4,014
That doesn't really show that keto had anything to do with curing those symptoms. I don't see any relation between using carbs as energy and getting colds.
Yeah, it's hard to say. Some of it may be psychological. All I know is that I tend to feel like shit after eating or consuming lots of carbs/sugar, so I mostly just avoid them. Helps me keep my weight in check without any kind of meticulous monitoring. I tracked my weight every morning for a year in 2018 and it remained the same +- 3 lbs. I always just eat until I don't feel hungry anymore.

I'm not saying the same will apply to everyone. Everyone needs to find what works for them, obviously, but if they feel like what they are doing is not working, then I would highly recommend at least giving carb restriction a try. There is zero harm in it.
 
Oct 28, 2017
189
I posted about how Harvard Health updated their status on fats and carbohydrates
https://www.health.harvard.edu/staying-healthy/the-truth-about-fats-bad-and-good

The keto people who replace all carbs with unhealthy fats are being dangerous. Keto followers, please be mindful of the fats you eat.

It seems there is a trend of misunderstanding going on here. Keto outright requires you to eat complex carbohydrates. It is not a diet of just solely meat. And it seems that a lot of people are speaking out when they are not knowledgeable about what the diet entails.


Ketosis requires you to be having 20 grams of carbs per day until you enter ketosis. Induction can be done on 20 to 40 grams of carbs.

After induction, you are supposed to up the amount of grams per day of complex carbs you eat. This usually means things like broccoli, asparagus, zucchini and the like.

I myself eat okra and broccoli along whatever meat I choose. Or other tasty veggies.


The diet seems to be drastically misunderstood and I wish folks would research it more from folks who follow the diet properly and are living full healthy lives instead of this perception that seems to think it’s all about meat
 
Oct 26, 2017
4,322
Saying that ketosis is a "natural state of being" means I can say using carbs as energy is "a natural state of being. The body burns different sources of energy because it's simply able to handle it.

If you're eating healthy, non-processed foods, I don't think it really matters what diet you're using or if you're in/out of ketosis. You're going to be living a healthy life and not eating shit.

Eating healthy and balanced has little to do with the process and dieting of keto. Just like the basic functions of a caloric restricted diet doesn't inherently factor in that you can eat 1200 calories if McDonalds every day and still meet the calorie goals.
 
Oct 25, 2017
2,116
It seems there is a trend of misunderstanding going on here. Keto outright requires you to eat complex carbohydrates. It is not a diet of just solely meat. And it seems that a lot of people are speaking out when they are not knowledgeable about what the diet entails.


Ketosis requires you to be having 20 grams of carbs per day until you enter ketosis. Induction can be done on 20 to 40 grams of carbs.

After induction, you are supposed to up the amount of grams per day of complex carbs you eat. This usually means things like broccoli, asparagus, zucchini and the like.

I myself eat okra and broccoli along whatever meat I choose. Or other tasty veggies.


The diet seems to be drastically misunderstood and I wish folks would research it more from folks who follow the diet properly and are living full healthy lives instead of this perception that seems to think it’s all about meat
Good to know!
 
Oct 25, 2017
766
Chicagoland
[
It seems there is a trend of misunderstanding going on here. Keto outright requires you to eat complex carbohydrates. It is not a diet of just solely meat. And it seems that a lot of people are speaking out when they are not knowledgeable about what the diet entails.


Ketosis requires you to be having 20 grams of carbs per day until you enter ketosis. Induction can be done on 20 to 40 grams of carbs.

After induction, you are supposed to up the amount of grams per day of complex carbs you eat. This usually means things like broccoli, asparagus, zucchini and the like.

I myself eat okra and broccoli along whatever meat I choose. Or other tasty veggies.


The diet seems to be drastically misunderstood and I wish folks would research it more from folks who follow the diet properly and are living full healthy lives instead of this perception that seems to think it’s all about meat
This. There's a bunch of jackasses in here borderline shaming people for doing a diet that by most accounts of the people who are or have done it saying it works for them. It's calories in calories out. All diets are. If it's easier to stick with for someone what's wrong with that. Kindly shove your "60 years from now you don't know whatll happen!" speals somewhere dank.
 
Oct 26, 2017
4,322
Once your goal is met generally you will want to be in maintenance mode on the diet. Maintenance mode keeps you around your ideal weight and you stay nice and healthy.
Right, but if keto is used because it burns your stored fat, then what reason is there to stay on a low-carb diet if you've taken the steps to fix your overall diet and learned proper nutrition/self control and good eating habits?
 
Oct 28, 2017
189
Right, but if keto is used because it burns your stored fat, then what reason is there to stay on a low-carb diet if you've taken the steps to fix your overall diet and learned proper nutrition/self control and good eating habits?
I was going to address another statement you had so I will just quote this one and do both.

Again, speaking from experience here.

Better health overall. Better and far higher mental clarity and focus. Far better sleep as I feel much more rested, higher performance and problem resolution at work. Far less of a foul and grumpy mood at others, and staying healthy and fit. And also, one of the most important factors, not feeling like you are starving all the time and need to constantly snack and eat.

Then again, being in keto maintenance mode is no different than me using your own words. It is, as you said, fixing your overall diet and good eating habits. Literally.


Let me give you an example. One of the first times I went into keto was to get healthier before a convention. I was on the diet for months for health reasons by cardiologist as well due to his concern of my age and family history.

I had far better mental clarity, I was happier, my rest during sleep was drastically different and far more blissful. I woke up very well rested pretty much all the time. I was almost never hungry. My willpower to ignore sodas, snacks, etc became much easier to maintain and handle.

Most importantly of all though, my body became fat adapted. Meaning it switched to it’s natural state of burning the fat from your food that you eat instead of needing it to be so much from your body. ( One of the many reasons why fat is needed in the diet, brain and nervous system reasons aside. ) The fat you consume is used as energy, not stored in the body unless you literally expend next to no energy and are beyond exceedingly sedentary.

Fat adaption meant I naturally craved and desired good, healthy foods. When I finally hit the con, things like pizza, soda, noodles, all of that...did not taste anywhere as good as I remembered it tasting. In fact, the first thing I had was a pizza. And I remember as I ate it feeling severely disappointed and wishing I had a steak and some steamed broccoli and a salad instead. I in fact started salivating over the idea of a steak and fresh veggies over the pizza.

Also, as to another statement you made. Ketosis is a natural state of being for human beings. We as a species would not have survived without it as sugary foods and carbs were not common back in the days of ancient human beings.

Look at the way Native American tribes were as well back in the day too. They didn’t exactly have a huge abundance of carbs. And Eskimo tribes live in a constant state of high fat high meat diets and they have thrived quite well for themselves for a very long time.

So this sense of it not being natural and it killing us is a bit much to me.
 
Oct 25, 2017
1,253
NYC
Right, but if keto is used because it burns your stored fat, then what reason is there to stay on a low-carb diet if you've taken the steps to fix your overall diet and learned proper nutrition/self control and good eating habits?
Not eating many carbs is attributed to self-control. Why put yourself in a situation where you can relapse if you're fine with how you eat/how your lifestyle is currently? Would you tell someone who quit smoking a pack of cigarettes a day to go back to smoking in moderation once they get their discipline in control?

Before you say that carbs and cigarettes aren't equivalent, I realize that. I'm highlighting the destructive qualities carbs may have on someone, resembling an addiction, especially when morbidly obese or may have a binge eating disorder. It's a mental struggle and a vicious cycle of shame and guilt. It's easy to be theoretical about things online and prescribing what people should ideally be doing but there's a psychological aspect that you're largely ignoring.
 
Nov 20, 2017
1,574
No offense is intended by me for what I am about to say. So if any is taken please know that.

It is not cultish nonsense. Cultish nonsense is something like doing a water fast for 60 days. Which I have seen people do. That puts you at risk. I also personally consider counting calories as a sole measurement, not heeding the source of said calories, as cultish nonsense as well. Besides, carbs are not just bread. 300 years ago bread was a hell of a lot healthier than the nutrient deprived, has to be “ Enriched “ stuff that is out there now.


Primitive man survived because we as creatures rarely came across fruit or other high sweet items. We are by design built to survive and thrive in a state of ketosis. The human body was built to store sugar as fat if not immediately expended or stored back in muscle beyond what the brain knew it’s daily requirements to be. That fat can then be burned as energy, most important of all for the brain which requires fat for the nervous systems health.

If you truly believe ancient man had an abundance of anything but meat and insects and what few vegetables they could find for food, I’m not sure what to tell you besides maybe ask an anthropologist about the matter.
What do you consider ancient man? It's also more likely they had more fruits than vegetables because vegetables that we know didn't really become what they are without massive amounts of human intervention. I think this is also logically flawed- arguing it's an evolutionary fact when humans, fruits, and vegetables have been evolving or had their traits selected so what was optimal x years ago isn't necessarily so now.

In fact that is one argument for not having lots of fruit, the modern variants are a good deal sweeter than ancient varieties. Regardless, the human diet advancing has probably contributed to brain development, so viewing it as a completely static process seems misguided. If anything vegetables tending to be super healthy seems to run counter to this, as most of those didn't exist as they are until after agriculture.
 
Oct 26, 2017
4,322
Not eating many carbs is attributed to self-control. Why put yourself in a situation where you can relapse if you're fine with how you eat/how your lifestyle is currently? Would you tell someone who quit smoking a pack of cigarettes a day to go back to smoking in moderation once they get their discipline in control?

Before you say that carbs and cigarettes aren't equivalent, I realize that. I'm highlighting the destructive qualities carbs may have on someone, resembling an addiction, especially when morbidly obese or may have a binge eating disorder. It's a mental struggle and a vicious cycle of shame and guilt. It's easy to be theoretical about things online and prescribing what people should ideally be doing but there's a psychological aspect that you're largely ignoring.
I don't think carbs are the reason why people are obese or addicted to food, and I don't think all obese/overweight people have inherent eating disorders beyond the simple fact they live in an envrionment that promotes absolutely horrible foods that have been designed to make them not full and addicted/constantly craving such foods.

I don't see many people admitting they are addicted to carbs. That's kinda insane and not really something that exists in terms of a food illness.
 
Oct 28, 2017
189
What do you consider ancient man? It's also more likely they had more fruits than vegetables because vegetables that we know didn't really become what they are without massive amounts of human intervention. I think this is also logically flawed- arguing it's an evolutionary fact when humans, fruits, and vegetables have been evolving or had their traits selected so what was optimal x years ago isn't necessarily so now.

In fact that is one argument for not having lots of fruit, the modern variants are a good deal sweeter than ancient varities. Regardless, the human diet advancing has probably contributed to brain development, so viewing it as a completely static process seems misguided. If anything vegetables tending to be super healthy seems to run counter to this, as most of those didn't exist as they are until after agriculture.

Prehistoric human beings and their descendants. Basically, pretty much everything predating A.D. So generally B.C. Bear in mind that is not counting native tribes in America and other regions as well as say the artic with the eskimos etc. Which as far as I am aware, didn’t have an abundance of fruit around as we do and as such was far more scarce.

Take for example the chukchi people. Their diet is mostly whale, bear and seal meat, berries, and milk. And they have thrived for ages.


Also, I agree with you that the higher abundance of sweeter foods has contributed to growth as a species and our further evolution.

I would argue though that most of what people in America eat is killing us instead of making us healthier and furthering our life spans.

Most of the food we have nowadays did not exist 100 years ago. Most of stuff is now engineered to trigger desires to have more of it, more often. Sugar is in fact more addictive than cocaine and crack to the human brain according to some studies.A lot of the stuff we eat can be made without the unhealthy amount of salts, sugars, and processed items and enriching that goes on.

But food manufacturers do this so that we desire more and eat more. Americans for example eat portion sizes that other countries with far healthier diets think is ludicrous and beyond necessary
 
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Oct 26, 2017
4,322
I was going to address another statement you had so I will just quote this one and do both.

Again, speaking from experience here.

Better health overall. Better and far higher mental clarity and focus. Far better sleep as I feel much more rested, higher performance and problem resolution at work. Far less of a foul and grumpy mood at others, and staying healthy and fit. And also, one of the most important factors, not feeling like you are starving all the time and need to constantly snack and eat.

Then again, being in keto maintenance mode is no different than me using your own words. It is, as you said, fixing your overall diet and good eating habits. Literally.


Let me give you an example. One of the first times I went into keto was to get healthier before a convention. I was on the diet for months for health reasons by cardiologist as well due to his concern of my age and family history.

I had far better mental clarity, I was happier, my rest during sleep was drastically different and far more blissful. I woke up very well rested pretty much all the time. I was almost never hungry. My willpower to ignore sodas, snacks, etc became much easier to maintain and handle.

Most importantly of all though, my body became fat adapted. Meaning it switched to it’s natural state of burning the fat from your food that you eat instead of needing it to be so much from your body. ( One of the many reasons why fat is needed in the diet, brain and nervous system reasons aside. ) The fat you consume is used as energy, not stored in the body unless you literally expend next to no energy and are beyond exceedingly sedentary.

Fat adaption meant I naturally craved and desired good, healthy foods. When I finally hit the con, things like pizza, soda, noodles, all of that...did not taste anywhere as good as I remembered it tasting. In fact, the first thing I had was a pizza. And I remember as I ate it feeling severely disappointed and wishing I had a steak and some steamed broccoli and a salad instead. I in fact started salivating over the idea of a steak and fresh veggies over the pizza.

Also, as to another statement you made. Ketosis is a natural state of being for human beings. We as a species would not have survived without it as sugary foods and carbs were not common back in the days of ancient human beings.

Look at the way Native American tribes were as well back in the day too. They didn’t exactly have a huge abundance of carbs. And Eskimo tribes live in a constant state of high fat high meat diets and they have thrived quite well for themselves for a very long time.

So this sense of it not being natural and it killing us is a bit much to me.
I've never said keto is killing people.

The bolded has literally nothing to do with removing carbs from your diet. None, zero. If you're selling this as a reason to go on a keto diet you are literally selling snake oil to someone. Everything you just wrote is what can happen when you go on a diet.

Everything you wrote happened to me and when I was in that state during my dieting I was not in ketosis.

Ketosis is as natural as getting energy from carbs. Humans are not in a constant state of ketosis, if you're going to be using "ancient" humans or whatever as some baseline then you need to realize that during the summer/fall it's likely that most humans fell out of ketosis due to bulking up on fruits/veggies/nuts, and during winter/spring is when people were in ketosis.

The body has evolved to be adaptive to different sources of energy, that doesn't mean ketosis is somehow the purest, most healthiest form of being. That's just making a really, really poor assumption on how the human body functions and how it reacts over a long term timeline (think decades)

You are conflating the national crisis of our food being absolute dogshit with keto being the cure to peoples ills.
 
Oct 28, 2017
7,185
That's cultish nonsense. There is no such thing as a diet that must be followed "to the letter." Eat well and you'll thrive. If you're able to eat bread, for instance, eat it when you like. It's lovely stuff and you will enjoy life. If you're unable to eat bread, find alternatives but please don't pretend that bread is horrible just because it doesn't work for you.
Bread is not a human right. Bread is not good for you. Yes, it is delicious. And low-carb bread alternatives exist, but people can live perfectly happy and more healthy lives without bread. Bread is addicting and in most cases, filled with sugar.

Eating bread is not eating 'well'.
 
Oct 26, 2017
4,322
Bread is not a human right. Bread is not good for you. Yes, it is delicious. And low-carb bread alternatives exist, but people can live perfectly happy and more healthy lives without bread. Bread is addicting and in most cases, filled with sugar.

Eating bread is not eating 'well'.
Shit bread is shit bread. Yea, if you're eating wonder-bread on a daily basis you're just eating sugar laced crap.

You can get sourdough bread and not have a single teaspoon of sugar in it, and even if it has a teaspoon of brown sugar it's not exactly the end of the world.
 
Oct 28, 2017
189
I've never said keto is killing people.

The bolded has literally nothing to do with removing carbs from your diet. None, zero. If you're selling this as a reason to go on a keto diet you are literally selling snake oil to someone. Everything you just wrote is what can happen when you go on a diet.

Everything you wrote happened to me and when I was in that state during my dieting I was not in ketosis.

Trimming some of this down. Also, I didn’t see anything bolded so I will just address things in general.

Keto is not removing carbs from your diet. Please stop saying this.

Keto involves entering ketosis while eating complex carbohydrates in the form of healthy vegetables. Literally, meat, dairy, and veggies. In essence, healthy foods.

As you proceed out of induction, you eat more amounts of complex carbohydrates in the form of vegetables and other items.

You are basically saying that I am making a statement that keto removes carbs. Which I have not done.

Keto REQUIRES carbs. Your body NEEDS some amount of complex carbohydrates in order to survive period. Keto or no keto regardless.



I have tried a ton of different diets through the years even with nutritional guidance by professionals. The only thing that proved to work for me was keto which is, in a nutshell, eating healthy. I am not sure if you have ever tried it and if you have not then your own evidence is anecdotal as you yourself are not aware of what it feels like to be in ketosis long term in comparison to me or anyone else that does keto.

Whether you realize it or not you and I are basically in agreement on the matter as a whole. Eat healthy and responsibly and don’t put crap in your body.

Keto is a way of doing that. But it’s a method that works because once you hit ketosis hunger is severely curbed and cheating on the diet etc is a lot easier to avoid
 
Oct 25, 2017
1,253
NYC
I don't think all obese/overweight people have inherent eating disorders
I never claimed otherwise. Unless you're claiming obesity isn't a medical condition and can't be comorbid with other disorders.

I don't see many people admitting they are addicted to carbs. That's kinda insane and not really something that exists in terms of a food illness.
Because people only recently have come around to keto not just being a 'fad diet', so the science around it is still developing. There have been indications of carbs' effect on dopamine receptors, and how it may resemble an addiction (as I previously said). It's mostly why people simply don't crave carbs after adapting to a low carb diet.
 
Oct 26, 2017
4,322
Keto is a low carb diet, it's restricting the amount of carbs you take in to go into a state of ketosis.

In order for people to properly partake in a keto diet, by the simple statistics of the average American/western diet, they are going to be removing carbs from their diet, because most foods have a very high net-carb total due to the lack of fiber.

The fiber, which from the things you have listed, are the reason people can eat them on a keto diet, due to having a high fiber amount which causes a low net-carb total.

I already mentioned this in the thread, but from your description you used keto as a way to get your personal diet habits under control and overhaul what you put into your body. This is obviously a very good thing and is going to have major physical and mental benefits.

However, what I said was this is not something that is exclusive to keto. You don't need to be restricting your carb intake in order to not eat shit food, and just because you are going on a low carb diet doesn't inherently mean you are going to be eating any healthier.

One of the unfortunate selling points of the keto diet is "eat like shit, just not the bread and stuff". People who are on keto brag about eating the same amount of food but loosing weight because their body is burning fat. From a purely dietary stand point, this is bad and isn't fixing the issues that caused someone to become overweight in the first place. They aren't fixing their shit diet or eating habits.

A lot of the things people talk about, especially in this thread, aren't specifically from keto. Going on keto probably forced them in some way to take a hard look at their food and eating habits, but the actual process of being in a state of ketosis has little medical benefits outside of promoting weight loss and the known benefits for type 2 diabetics and aiding in those who suffer from epilepsy.

When people start listing how their mental wellbeing improved, their focus increased and so forth, it could be the inverse of something like the keto flu, but those benifits are seen from a general improvement of ones lifestyle which has, as stated before, mental and physical benefits. The actual science behind the mental improvements is... limited at best.

If people find success in keto, that's good. Just understand there is valid criticism for the possible health risks for people who use keto on a long term basis and there is little data on using keto specifically for weight loss. If people want to have keto on some type of pedestal and list some rather unproven and anecdotal experiences like OP posted on the opening post, then it's more than reasonable to be skeptical and point out those are hardly universal benefits of keto, or even linked to keto at all.
 
Oct 25, 2017
4,014
Right, but if keto is used because it burns your stored fat, then what reason is there to stay on a low-carb diet if you've taken the steps to fix your overall diet and learned proper nutrition/self control and good eating habits?
What are you talking about? low-carb is proper nutrition for those that find success on it. Why would you revert to eating the stuff that made you fat and sick in the first place?
 
Oct 25, 2017
4,014
The bolded has literally nothing to do with removing carbs from your diet. None, zero. If you're selling this as a reason to go on a keto diet you are literally selling snake oil to someone. Everything you just wrote is what can happen when you go on a diet.
You honestly look like you're throwing a tantrum at this point because some people out there respond extremely well to restricting or removing carbs and you just do not want to hear it. You have absolutely no idea what caused those benefits, but it's not a stretch to link them with the coinciding change in diet.

You're making a poor assumption that carbs are why they are overweight.
Whatever you want to tell yourself. The bottom line is that millions of people are getting their weight and health in control by restricting carbs. You can say that carbs actually have nothing to do with it until you're blue in the face, but that doesn't change the situation for all of us.
 
Oct 26, 2017
4,322
You honestly look like you're throwing a tantrum at this point because some people out there respond extremely well to restricting or removing carbs and you just do not want to hear it. You have absolutely no idea what caused those benefits, but it's not a stretch to link them with the coinciding change in diet.



Whatever you want to tell yourself. The bottom line is that millions of people are getting their weight and health in control by restricting carbs. You can say that carbs actually have nothing to do with it until you're blue in the face, but that doesn't change the situation for all of us.
lol what?

If we are going to talk about people throwing tantrums I can probably find a good handful of posts in this thread.
 
Oct 25, 2017
4,014
You've been reacting (lashing out, rather) in quite extreme ways to any mention of the benefits of carb restriction throughout the course of this thread. It's quite obvious that you really do not want to hear or think about the topic and are eagerly attempting to quash any discussion about it.

If you love carbs and are happy with your health, then more power to you. No need to tell people that they are wrong for making very personal observations about their own health.
 
Oct 25, 2017
2,913
This is simply not true, gout is caused by urate crystals that deposits in a joint, typically the big toe. The foods that causes urate crystals to form are steak, organ meats and seafood, so unless your friend was consuming tons of these types of food, then it's not related to his "keto" diet.
Here's a link for causes and symptoms of gout : https://www.mayoclinic.org/diseases-conditions/gout/symptoms-causes/syc-20372897
Right, as another poster mentioned, red meat can cause it, and I think red meat was high on their keto list.
 
Oct 26, 2017
4,322
You've been reacting (lashing out, rather) in quite extreme ways to any mention of the benefits of carb restriction throughout the course of this thread. It's quite obvious that you really do not want to hear or think about the topic and eagerly attempting to quash any discussion about it.

If you love carbs and are happy with your health, then more power to you. No need to tell people that they are wrong for making very personal observations about their own health.
You're projecting very, very hard right now

If I didn't want to have a discussion about keto I wouldn't be nine pages deep into a thread about keto.
 
Oct 28, 2017
189
You're making a poor assumption that carbs are why they are overweight.
How is that exactly a poor assumption? Here in the US, and even over in the UK, it's been pretty much a fact for a while now that High Fat, High Carb and High Sugary foods, which is most of what one can consider their diet to be, has caused the issue.

People from the 1800's and even the early 1900's to say, 1950, didn't have anywhere near as much of a problem with obesity and diabetes and other health issues like we have had in the past 50 years. People were much healthier then, great depression and issues of starvation aside from that troublesome time.


Any time I go in the grocery store, I just look around and most of what I gather is from a few aisles. Veggies, Meat, Dairy. If you subtract those three items from a grocery store, the remaining aisles would be mostly comprised of highly processed, high fat and high sugar content foods.

Stuff that doesn't come about naturally.

So how is that a poor assumption considering for most people who are poor, you can get more of the crappy food for cheaper, than healthy vegetables and fruits for a family of four?

Cost and amount is a consideration for many. Here in the states it's cheaper to get an unhealthy meal that can feed your family for a night in say, hamburger helper or something, then getting a bunch of veggies or fruits that won't feed everyone for the same price, as it is more expensive.
 
Oct 28, 2017
189
Right, as another poster mentioned, red meat can cause it, and I think red meat was high on their keto list.
Technically though that can be substituted for healthier meats and sources of protein in Keto. I usually use Pork Steaks as I can get 3 of them for about 5 bucks. Then I throw in wings, chicken legs, fish, or shrimp when I feel like switching things up. Eggs, Bacon, and other stuff works too.

Thankfully I have never had Gout, but in general if one is experiencing issues with that Keto can be adjusted up to exclude red meat. As far as I am aware, there's no hard and fast rule saying Red Meat is required as an absolute in Keto.
 
Oct 26, 2017
1,617
It's way too tempting to draw a line in the sand. Keto is THE WAY or keto is DANGEROUS.

People who are using it, stick to it if it's working for you. Doesn't mean you need to go the hard sell, and keeping an open mind about research into the diet is a good thing. People who are talking down on keto, show some respect for the people who have acheived and continue to acheive great results.

Don't take it all so personally.
 
Oct 26, 2017
4,322
How is that exactly a poor assumption? Here in the US, and even over in the UK, it's been pretty much a fact for a while now that High Fat, High Carb and High Sugary foods, which is most of what one can consider their diet to be, has caused the issue.

People from the 1800's and even the early 1900's to say, 1950, didn't have anywhere near as much of a problem with obesity and diabetes and other health issues like we have had in the past 50 years. People were much healthier then, great depression and issues of starvation aside from that troublesome time.


Any time I go in the grocery store, I just look around and most of what I gather is from a few aisles. Veggies, Meat, Dairy. If you subtract those three items from a grocery store, the remaining aisles would be mostly comprised of highly processed, high fat and high sugar content foods.

Stuff that doesn't come about naturally.

So how is that a poor assumption considering for most people who are poor, you can get more of the crappy food for cheaper, than healthy vegetables and fruits for a family of four?

Cost and amount is a consideration for many. Here in the states it's cheaper to get an unhealthy meal that can feed your family for a night in say, hamburger helper or something, then getting a bunch of veggies or fruits that won't feed everyone for the same price, as it is more expensive.
I completely agree with you, the processed carbs/sugar shit that litters the shelves is killing people.

But I think Drek mentioned this earlier, removing the processed carbs from your diet doesn't mean you're inherently following keto. This is kinda the distinction I've been making, or trying to make.

You can have a low carb diet and not be following keto. Keto is very specific in that you are chasing the state of being in ketosis, but we both know this.

As I've stated earlier, I've practically removed processed foods from my diet, as well as high sugar things like soda/juices (obviously not completely, but on a day to day diet they are gone and I don't buy them). From what I eat, I know I'm in a low-carb diet, but I'm not inherently seeking a low carb diet, it's just the byproduct of removing highly processed foods from my life.

I'm not chasing ketosis, and my criticisms are specifically about the lack of long term knowledge of using keto for weight loss, as well as the "cult of personality" keto has seemingly formed. But that's something I always point out and criticize, from politics to diets.
 
Oct 28, 2017
316
One more concern. Was talking to someone who went low carb, but not necessarily keto, and they are describing feeling very lethargic. Depression already takes a toll on my energy levels. Should I be concerned about lethargy and fatigue trying keto?
 
Oct 28, 2017
189
I completely agree with you, the processed carbs/sugar shit that litters the shelves is killing people.

But I think Drek mentioned this earlier, removing the processed carbs from your diet doesn't mean you're following keto. This is kinda the distinction I've been making, or trying to make.

You can have a low carb diet and not be following keto. Keto is very specific in that you are chasing the state of being in ketosis, but we both know this.

As I've stated earlier, I've practically removed processed foods from my diet, as well as high sugar things like soda/juices (obviously not completely, but on a day to day diet they are gone and I don't buy them). From what I eat, I know I'm in a low-carb diet, but I'm not inherently seeking a low carb diet, it's just the byproduct of removing highly processed foods from my life.

I'm not chasing ketosis, and my criticisms are specifically about the lack of long term knowledge of using keto for weight loss.

Ahhh, I gotcha.

You are correct. Removing processed carbs from the diet doesn't mean you are following keto at all. It just means you are taking that junk out of your life period. Tasty though some of it might be. For example I found some planters cheez balls tonight at the store and I just had to pick some up, because I have fond memories of my aunt and great grandmother giving them to me as a kid when I came over to visit. So I wanted a bit of nostalgia. Even though I know quite clearly it's horrible for me lol.

You are also right in that you can live a low carb lifestyle without being in ketosis and without actively seeking it. For some, it works. For others, it may not and I was one of those individuals. But that is because of how sedentary my job keeps me and the fact that I work on average about 50 - 80 hour weeks. Sometimes 120 in a week.



For long term, I would look for historical analysis of say, the eskimos or the chukchi people. There are also aboriginal tribes that eat mostly a diet of meat and dairy and what vegetables and insects they can gather. But in the instance of the chukchi and eskimos, they mostly relied on meat and high levels of fat to survive for their diet.

From what I understand, those people are quite healthy and hearty, all things considered. They still eat berries and whatnot when they could get it, but for winter and other times I imagine they were in ketosis more often than not. So I would look to the factors of those kinds of groups for any long term evidence. If any study has been done. I know a long time ago, there was a study done with aboriginals in Australia I believe who subsisted on meat, cheese, dairy pretty much exclusively and they were quite healthy, which generally would keep them in ketosis most of the time. When they were stuck on a western diet, things went to crap.

As it stands, if one considers things naturally, the human body will shift in and out of ketosis once we go over the limit of carbs that kicks us out. I think, for some people, it's over 120. Others have said that they have found once they went over 70 grams of carbs, they were kicked out of ketosis.



As for me, in the end I would say what is harmful is being in Ketosis and eating lean meats, and not enough carbs. Because your body turns into an engine that burns fat for energy, and if you aren't eating enough for your body to convert to ketones, you are hurting yourself pretty badly I would say.

You are required during induction to not go over 20 if you choose that route, but 40 grams of complex carbs for the easier method. Once you are out of induction, you can up the amount of carbs you eat as you move on and get healthier.


But in general, you require that fat for fuel. Since the body processes the fat for energy, it's most of the resource we use and that is why it is required to mostly come from the food ( and not solely your own body. ) So in my mind, the risk factor would be that for long term. Otherwise, I have heard some cite concerns about the liver and maybe even the kidneys. But I believe those concerns have been proven false to be concerned about.
 
Oct 25, 2017
1,776
If you lost 89lb (40Kg for fuck's sake) and are not dead, you were probably morbidly obese to begin with. If your physician ordered this diet, good for them and well done to you. If you just randomly lost that amount of weight without medical supervision, please see a real doctor as soon as possible. You are probably rather ill.
I love how you warn people not to stop eating rice and baked potatoes and Oreos without consulting a doctor first, but you have no problem diagnosing somebody as being "rather ill" based on an internet forum post where they happily say they were able to lose a lot of weight and stop being obese by adhering to a specific diet.

I mean yeah, definitely talk to your doctor about this kind of thing, but what a leap you've made.
 
Oct 28, 2017
189
One more concern. Was talking to someone who went low carb, but not necessarily keto, and they are describing feeling very lethargic. Depression already takes a toll on my energy levels. Should I be concerned about lethargy and fatigue trying keto?
There is a thing called Keto Flu, where for some people, up to two weeks, they feel like crap. I myself have never suffered this. Caffeine headaches are the worst symptoms I suffered.

Once you hit ketosis, you'll feel a boost of energy and generally feel better overall. I'd say this is because during the period of the " Flu " it's because your body is going through withdrawal of things it likes, like sugar and caffeine etc, and you suffer those effects.

So, it can be a concern. You can ease yourself into this by weaning yourself off of things you like slowly. So in my case, I chose to drink caffeine free pepsi for a while before the diet began. I used a method of one or two regular sodas with caffeine, then drank the caffeine free pepsi for the rest of the day. Eventually, this helped me ease into the transition better as my own issue is always with Pepsi. ( Frigging love that stuff even though I know it's bad for me. )


You can purchase ketone strips or get ketone testers which work kind of like diabetic glucose testing. You prick your finger like and let the blood go on to the strip and then stick it into the tester and you get a blood ketone level.

Ketone strips are not exactly great for how much ketones you are producing. But they are good for testing if you are getting into ketosis. They generally revolve around testing ketone levels in your urine. So you pee in a cup and dip the strip in for 40 seconds or however long it says, and you get the result.


I would say in your case, ease into it. Do some research, and start eating healthier foods and restricting more and more carbs slowly until you feel you can safely go into induction to start the process. Once you truly hit ketosis, you'll know it in say, a weeks time after hitting ketosis. Most report feeling amazing once they hit ketosis. And I can echo this experience. I especially love how easy it is for me to think. My brain feels much less clouded and thought processes come easier to me.

I also slept much, much easier. No racing thoughts. No brain keeping me up or waking me up in the middle of the night. I'd hit the bed and sleep like a log until it came time to wake up. And that feeling is pure damned bliss let me tell you.
 
Oct 25, 2017
1,776
Wouldn't it be more logical to assume that the health issues you just stated were related to your weight pre-diet and probably aren't cured specifically because of keto?
For what it's worth, I didn't lose a ton of weight on this diet (my weight was a lot closer to the ideal than in many cases here) and I also saw many of those side effects in the extreme as well. I'm talking the end of hunger, the end of lethargy/tiredness, the end of sleeplessness, I stopped getting sick and haven't had anything other than catching the flu from my son in 8 years, etc. All of my bloodwork is immaculate and my physicals are top of the line as well.
 
Oct 25, 2017
1,069
ive been keto for years. It works for me. People are almost always surprised at what i eat. They think keto or low-carb and they think its nothing but plates of bacon and beef jerky or something. My daily go-to meal: brussels sprouts, eggs, hamburger/sausage, and some sauerkraut/kimchi. Once a week or so ill have organ meat like heart/liver/brains.

edit: All the weight ive lost ive done while never exercising. i absolutely hate exercising. i only do it now at the barest minimum to reap the health benefits.
 
Oct 27, 2017
3,803
No offense is intended by me for what I am about to say. So if any is taken please know that.

It is not cultish nonsense. Cultish nonsense is something like doing a water fast for 60 days. Which I have seen people do. That puts you at risk. I also personally consider counting calories as a sole measurement, not heeding the source of said calories, as cultish nonsense as well. Besides, carbs are not just bread. 300 years ago bread was a hell of a lot healthier than the nutrient deprived, has to be “ Enriched “ stuff that is out there now.


Primitive man survived because we as creatures rarely came across fruit or other high sweet items. We are by design built to survive and thrive in a state of ketosis. The human body was built to store sugar as fat if not immediately expended or stored back in muscle beyond what the brain knew it’s daily requirements to be. That fat can then be burned as energy, most important of all for the brain which requires fat for the nervous systems health.

If you truly believe ancient man had an abundance of anything but meat and insects and what few vegetables they could find for food, I’m not sure what to tell you besides maybe ask an anthropologist about the matter.

Sugars are converted quickly and stored as fat. It’s why we have such an epidemic right now. Go in the grocery store and take a serious, hard look around. 80-90% of the food in there I wager is not a form that existed 150 years ago. And that percentage is almost entirely processed high carb, high sugar foods that instantly for most people, get turned into fat stores.

Give me someone who has been on keto faithfully for one year, and someone who has been counting calories as their only measure for diet. I guarantee you the individual following keto will be far healthier and happier compared to the person just counting calories.

The quality of the food you eat as a human being matters. It comprises and goes into our very cellular makeup.

And personally, I would rather be built of protein and healthy veggies compared to Oreos and fast food. I will be proven overwhelmingly healthier in comparison.

I have followed this diet for years. My cardiologist recommended it due to family medical history. My doctors have stated it works. For years now.

That is not cultish nonsense. That is the facts in my life given to me by medical professionals.

Edit: I hate my iPad and it’s autocorrect
Thank you. Said it way better than I could've. Saving.
 
Dec 17, 2018
59
xcdscs
ive been keto for years. It works for me. People are almost always surprised at what i eat. They think keto or low-carb and they think its nothing but plates of bacon and beef jerky or something. My daily go-to meal: brussels sprouts, eggs, hamburger/sausage, and some sauerkraut/kimchi. Once a week or so ill have organ meat like heart/liver/brains.

edit: All the weight ive lost ive done while never exercising. i absolutely hate exercising. i only do it now at the barest minimum to reap the health benefits.
Exercise is the best drug you can take for long term health. You got to sweat a little.
 
Oct 25, 2017
2,458
One more concern. Was talking to someone who went low carb, but not necessarily keto, and they are describing feeling very lethargic. Depression already takes a toll on my energy levels. Should I be concerned about lethargy and fatigue trying keto?
If you are highly insulin resistant (most overweight people are, it's the main reason for weight gain), you'll actually feel a lot better when you remove carbs from the equation. You can feel 'bad' at times if you don't get enough electrolytes and fat, a mistake some people make.
 
Oct 25, 2017
1,069
One more concern. Was talking to someone who went low carb, but not necessarily keto, and they are describing feeling very lethargic. Depression already takes a toll on my energy levels. Should I be concerned about lethargy and fatigue trying keto?
Usually the problem people have is too much energy. If this is not a withdrawal or adaptation phase "keto flu" ive heard low B5 can cause that. Now that im thinking about it when i was doing vegan keto this might have been the cause for my lethargy as i had tofu in place of beef/chicken/eggs. Never doing that again lol
 
Oct 28, 2017
88
If you lost 89lb (40Kg for fuck's sake) and are not dead, you were probably morbidly obese to begin with. If your physician ordered this diet, good for them and well done to you. If you just randomly lost that amount of weight without medical supervision, please see a real doctor as soon as possible. You are probably rather ill.
I started at 239lbs, I'd say I was obese but not morbidly, I lost the weight intentionally and it wasn't random lol, being on keto made losing the weight easier than any other diet I've tried over the years. I've been tracking my macros and make sure to hit my fat and protein goals each day, and no I'm not ill I look and feel better than I have in years and I've been able to keep the weight off.
 
Oct 26, 2017
9,293
I went from 100kg to 70kg in 1 year on keto, so it worked for me and it was "easy" to cut most carbs. I put on about 3kg this december (damn holidays) which was the first time I "cheated" (well, rather stopped given all the sweets I had lol) since starting, im back on it for realsies since the begining of january to try and go back down to 70 (actually I think the lowest I got was 69).

Then again I dont really go around advertising it and I hate when people ask me what I eat, it just leads to more questions and judgments (at least here everyone always assumes "welp I guess you dont eat meat right?" first thing, which is ironic given what keto is). You do you is my motto, find whatever works for you.
 
Nov 12, 2017
639
I tried eating a balanced diet after I went on vacation in early December. Gained a bunch of weight and couldn’t get it to come off even though I was hitting the gym 6-7 time a week. Said fuck it and went back on keto 4 days ago and surprise surprise I lost a bunch of weight. I’ve been on keto for years, and I get physicals and blood work done. It’s all good. Diabetes runs in my family and I’m not gonna risk it eating ”normal” like they do.