Jillian Micheals " Avoid the Keto Diet at all costs" - Offers little evidence and analysis

JVID · Jan 11, 2019

PortisheadBiscuit said:
I think the problem is people on Keto aren't necessarily addressing other eating disorders etc;. "Oh I can't have bread but let me eat a pound of cheese, 3 steaks, and some bacon to feel full".

Also, the diet should only be for individuals who's bodies don't regulate insulin properly. Not this huge crash/fad diet where people are using it as a shortcut to drop pounds quickly.

If youre gorging on fats past your defecit intake your not going to lose shit. It's a high fat lowcarb diet, but the fat your wanting your body to use is the stuff already on you not a pound of cheese or butter. The diet does work at reducing appetite and therefore calorie intake.

I also don't consider this a fad diet. It's been around for a long time now. It's just picked up in mainstream appeal more recently.

Deleted member 8561 · Jan 11, 2019

nynt9 said:
Why do people keep citing this nonsense? You haven't actually looked into the literature, have you? This is just baseless fear mongering. There have been many several-year-long studies. Some even decades long.

https://www.cambridge.org/core/jour...-of-epilepsy/927405527DC6CCF246FBA057EACA60E3

https://www.cambridge.org/core/jour...olled-trials/6FD9F975BAFF1D46F84C8BA9CE860783

https://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/full/10.1111/j.1528-1167.2009.02488.x

https://link.springer.com/article/10.1016/j.nurt.2009.01.005

https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S1059131111001683

There are dozens of studies in this subject matter, I just quoted a few. It's not for everyone and every situation, but it's pretty well studied.

edit: in before someone quotes like one line from one studies that validates their fear mongering without the context of the study or multiple studies

Four of those articles are about keto being used to treat epilepsy in kids, and out of those four only one seems to write about more detailed side-effects of a long term use of the diet on children

In the first article from 2013 literally says this,

The role of very-low-carbohydrate ketogenic diets (VLCKD) in the long-term management of obesity is not well established

One meta-study is not the end all be all, and it literally shows that the overall understanding of it's use for weight loss is not that well known

Vincent Grayson · Jan 11, 2019

TheLostBigBoss said:
It's personal bias and practically a lifestyle, so it's not all that shocking to see people get really heated over keto and stuff

At least for me, it just feels shitty. Keto is literally the only major dietary change I've ever made that actually worked. So when people shit all over the one thing that finally let me not feel like an alcoholic constantly desiring to consume, and helped me feel better and legitimately lose weight/curb cravings, it kinda sucks.

And often, the people speaking about it don't know shit, and are just offering their own misunderstanding of nutrition and diet science (which I in no way claim to be an expert on, mind). It works, and if it works, everyone who has a problem with it can kindly fuck off.

Tabaxi · Jan 11, 2019

17 Seconds said:
what

He's not wrong. You can lose weight eating nothing but McDonalds and Twinkies if you end up lowering your overall calorie intake.

iswasdoes · Jan 11, 2019

PhilosopherDirtBike said:
If you're eating less carbs, you're likely eating less calories. That's why people think keto is some kind of magic diet and carbs are the devil. If I ate exclusively high-carb foods but consumed the same number of calories as someone on the Keto Diet, I'd lose just as much weight.

People are criticising you but really that's absolutely right.

But when on Keto, you find it much easier to eat fewer calories because your sated by higher fat foods and the fact your body is burning its own energy reserves

When on Keto you're burning fat all the time, so you put less food in overall. That's why it works.

Harp · Jan 11, 2019

I know it sounds pretty conspiracy-ish, but I think the companies that manufacture things like cereal, juice, jam, and other foods marketed at kids, often as "heart healthy" and the like, are getting scared of the growing popularity of the keto diet with the 20-30 year old crowd and younger, because they know those people are going to be having kids and will be way less likely to feed them sugary bullshit. I can get a dozen eggs for the same price as a box of cereal, and you bet your ass I'll be feeding my kids scrambled eggs over honey nut cheerios when the day comes. It'll take a bit longer to cook, but I can wake up an extra ten minutes every morning to make sure my children are healthy.

Deleted member 1635 · Jan 11, 2019

Kthulhu said:
Makes sense. Keto is good for weight loss, not fat loss. Most of what you're losing is water.

Edit: avoiding it completely seems stupid, but it definitely isn't as perfect as people make it out to be.

Now that is some bullshit. It's a great diet for fat loss and also preserving muscle mass.

HamCormier · Jan 11, 2019

Tabaxi said:
He's not wrong. You can lose weight eating nothing but McDonalds and Twinkies if you end up lowering your overall calorie intake.

But that'll come at the price of less energy to spend, while Keto is the reverse -- the less carbs you eat (and more fats you consume), the more energy you get.

John Rabbit · Jan 11, 2019

Kthulhu said:
Makes sense. Keto is good for weight loss, not fat loss. Most of what you're losing is water.

Are you suggesting I lost 70lbs of water weight?

PortisheadBiscuit · Jan 11, 2019

JVIDICAN said:
If youre gorging on fats past your defecit intake your not going to lose shit. It's a high fat lowcarb diet, but the fat your wanting your body to use is the stuff already on you not a pound of cheese or butter. The diet does work at reducing appetite and therefore calorie intake.

The point is, a lot of people aren't focusing on the real problems like overeating etc;

8byte · Jan 11, 2019

Kileth said:
Cool so either I just eat what I want (keeping it within the Keto guidelines) or I have to do a shit ton of work counting my macros. I will take eating till I am full please.

Though your point is valid on the getting to the weight loss and then leaving the Keto diet. You have to stay on the diet in order to continue seeing the benefits and unlike tracking calories or exercise (which can never match your caloric intake) its easy, and doesn't really require you to do any additional work.

That's the problem though.

"It's easy". You're also "eating until you're full", which means you're probably still over eating, which is still a problem, and will still lead you to gain back a lot of that weight if you get off keto for any nominal duration of time. It's not a good plan.

For most people, that means they do some minor selective eating, lose some weight, and then stop the diet. At that point, their body will (usually) aggressively put back on the weight and in many cases, even more than their original starting point. Counting your macros is NOT "a shit ton of work". It's literally an afternoon of light reading, and then shopping well and using a food scale for your protein. It is very easy. The benefits being you'll learn what you're putting in your body, how your body is using it, and how to improve / adjust for different goals (particularly when you couple it with a sufficient workout plan).

No matter how much weight you lose, you will NEVER be as healthy as someone who is nutritionally educated and exercising regularly. Keto is great for short term gain, or as a necessity for medical reasons. As nutritional plan to stay thing? Not a good idea.

spam musubi · Jan 11, 2019

TheLostBigBoss said:
Four of those articles are about keto being used to treat epilepsy in kids, and out of those four only one seems to write about more detailed side-effects of a long term use of the diet on children

Ok? The diet is still the same when it's applied for epilepsy or not. It will still have effects on your body that the studies will measure. Good job on finding a one-line answer to discredit the studies like I predicted. If you're interested in the literature there's a ton out there. Just stop spreading the lie that there are no long term studies on it. The effects of the diet on the body long-term have been studied many, many times, regardless of the context.

LL_Decitrig · Jan 11, 2019

TheLostBigBoss said:
I'm impartial to keto, but it clearly has effects on weight loss, although those effects have an obvious range. Those who deny it's obvious effects are just as stubborn as those who deflect any criticism about the diet

You misunderstand me, I think. I love bread, beer, vegetables, pies and pretty much every other source of carbohydrates. They're delicious and I have eaten them every day for the past 60 years or so. Like many people my age I'm a little bit over median weight, though within the healthy range of the BMI.

So why would I want to fuck up my entire metabolism and start gorging myself on mounds of meat or whatever?

ned_ballad · Jan 11, 2019

TheLostBigBoss said:
It's personal bias and practically a lifestyle, so it's not all that shocking to see people get really heated over keto and stuff

For a diet, this is actually a good thing. It's a lifestyle change, that's the only way to successfully lose weight long term.

Damaniel · Jan 11, 2019

Joe2187 said:
So I dont watch the news that much, but apparently Jillian Micheals has been going around on a media blitz trying to criticize the "Keto Diet Trend"

https://www.today.com/health/jillia...-keto-diet-you-re-starving-yourselves-t146530

She recommends a balanced diet which is fine, for normal people who dont have weight, blood sugar or energy issues.

But ignores the benefits and reasons people use the diet.

1) Helps regulate your blood insulin sensitivity
2) Helps reduce your appetite so overeaters can curb their cravings
3) Weight Loss
4) Clearer mental health more focused thinking
5) Increases your energy and helps stress.

If you are a healthy individual, there's no reason for you to be doing any sort of special diet besides eating healthy non processed foods and proper sized portions. However the benefits for those that have issues like the above are not something to be avoided because a celebrity fitness trainer says so.

She's giving a bunch of misinformation that seems to primarily focus on promoting herself really.

"Starving yourself?" - it's pretty much the only diet where you're specifically not starving yourself.

What weight loss program is she shilling for?

JVID · Jan 11, 2019

PortisheadBiscuit said:
The point is, a lot of people aren't focusing on the real problems like overeating etc;

For a successful keto dieter the reduced appetite aspect should help with that. If you over eat on any diet it's not going to work.

Joe2187 · Jan 11, 2019

Kthulhu said:
Makes sense. Keto is good for weight loss, not fat loss. Most of what you're losing is water.

Edit: avoiding it completely seems stupid, but it definitely isn't as perfect as people make it out to be.

Except for the fact that you lose water, weight and BURN the fat.

The fat gets burnt off and if you have a proper excercise regimen can easily be turned into muscle.

I lost 125 lbs in 8 months and am stronger, leaner then I have ever been.

but thats just water?

Deleted member 8561 · Jan 11, 2019

nynt9 said:
Ok? The diet is still the same when it's applied for epilepsy or not. It will still have effects on your body that the studies will measure. Good job on finding a one-line answer to discredit the studies like I predicted. If you're interested in the literature there's a ton out there. Just stop spreading the lie that there are no long term studies on it. The effects of the diet on the body long-term have been studied many, many times, regardless of the context.

Using keto as a specific tool for weight loss is relatively new which is why most of the studies on keto focus on epilepsy and not on nutrition, long term weight loss and other things related to using it as the primary tool for weight loss.

So no, what you just said is not correct. Prefacing your deflection because one of your articles literally points out the lack of substantial data and research on using keto for weight loss is not a really good strategy, but that's just my view.

sgtnosboss · Jan 11, 2019

iswasdoes said:
What's the basis for this prediction, and why does it scare you?

It scares me because no part of me believes a diet like that can be good long term on the heart, kidneys, cholesterol, liver, nutritional deficiencies, ect. The last one is more concern for people that don't know what they need to supplement while on it, or make sure they incorporate. I think short term it can really help some people who really need to get weight off fast. Long term I think we will see more and more studies showing we shouldn't use it long term.

BlueTsunami · Jan 11, 2019

For me Keto was a good way to wipe the slate clean. Eat like that for a while and, if you've become more active, start introducing complex carbs back into the mix. You'll still lose weight regardless as long as you eat sensibly and are active everyday. But keto is magic in that the complete reduction of carbs puts in you a better state to, if it's by just being at a deficit or the quality of calories, lose the weight. It just works without having to micromanage your intake which is a big hurdle when it comes to diet adherence. Which is what ultimately matters.

Deleted member 8561 · Jan 11, 2019

ned_ballad said:
For a diet, this is actually a good thing. It's a lifestyle change, that's the only way to successfully lose weight long term.

When I say lifestyle, I mean more of it being like... a cult or something sacred that causes instant defense and attack of those who criticize it.

iswasdoes · Jan 11, 2019

sgtnosboss said:
It scares me because no part of me believes a diet like that can be good long term on the heart, kidneys, cholesterol, liver, nutritional deficiencies, ect. The last one is more concern for people that don't know what they need to supplement while on it, or make sure they incorporate. I think short term it can really help some people who really need to get weight off fast. Long term I think we will see more and more studies showing we shouldn't use it long term.

Sounds like you're going on your intuition rather than any actual evidence?

IMACOMPUTA · Jan 11, 2019

8byte said:
I agree but for different reasons. I'll get quote murdered here I'm sure and will have to ignore my notifications all day but...

Too many people use Keto as a way to lose weight without educating themselves...at all. They don't understand diet, exercise, discipline, or their damn bodies. Then, when they've hit their weight loss goal..boom. It all comes swarming back because they haven't LEARNED anything. Keto is popular because of the speed at which people lose weight. It has it's place, but as a primary dietary plan...I agree that it is a bad idea. I wish more people would simply learn the merits of counting your macros, building workout plans, and understanding their own physiology.

Keto has its place...but I advise most people against it, simply because for most people, the weight loss it offers will not be long term.

This is a broad generalization.
The same thing can be said about any diet that you use to lose weight and then stop and go back to old habits without learning anything.
Just because Keto causes you to "lose weight fast" it's bad?

I've lost over 100lbs over the last 2 years doing Keto and exercising. It's fuckin' annoying hearing people tell me it's a bad idea over and over.

The biggest criticism I see about Keto is that you "often gain the weight back". That's any diet.

-JD- said:
I can't imagine working out without the carbs to fuel me through it. But I suppose that's not the intended user-case for these diets.

uh.. what? lol

Orb said:
The best thing about keto is how being on keto makes you say the word keto a lot and work keto into every conversation, keto

The opposite is true actually. I hate bringing it up because people are completely ignorant about it.

Advance.Wars.Sgt. · Jan 11, 2019

Kthulhu said:
Makes sense. Keto is good for weight loss, not fat loss. Most of what you're losing is water.

Edit: avoiding it completely seems stupid, but it definitely isn't as perfect as people make it out to be.

Initial weight loss is mostly water, yes, because carbs are what retain the water in your body.

Afterwards though, as long as your fat i take is within limitations, your body will burn that off too. In fact, a number dieticians suggest utilizing both intermittent fasting and keto to maximize results (which is the method I use).

Joe2187 · Jan 11, 2019

sgtnosboss said:
It scares me because no part of me believes a diet like that can be good long term on the heart, kidneys, cholesterol, liver, nutritional deficiencies, ect. The last one is more concern for people that don't know what they need to supplement while on it, or make sure they incorporate. I think short term it can really help some people who really need to get weight off fast. Long term I think we will see more and more studies showing we shouldn't use it long term.

The thing is, it is very healthy if you do it right.

My blood sugar, cholestrol, blood pressure and everything else is even healthier than my own doctor even. I take supplements once a week as well but it's just some vitamins and magnesium really so it's not even anything special and Im the healthiest I've ever been and have the blood work to prove it.

spam musubi · Jan 11, 2019

TheLostBigBoss said:
Using keto as a specific tool for weight loss is relatively new which is why most of the studies on keto focus on epilepsy and not on nutrition, long term weight loss and other things related to using it as the primary tool for weight loss.

So no, what you just said is not correct. Prefacing your deflection because one of your articles literally points out the lack of substantial data and research on using keto for weight loss is not a really good strategy, but that's just my view.

The long term effects of the diet for weight loss (which are studied in other studies btw, but hey, I'm not going to google that for you) may have not been studied, but the point is that the side effects of the diet don't care about whether you're doing it to help with epilepsy or with weight loss. You'll still experience them. And there have been studies that have looked into that as well. Look, I understand that doing a literature search is hard, especially in nutrition science where there's a lot of seemingly contradicting information out there, but the least you could do is try not to move goalposts by saying "hey those studies were done for different reasons so they're invalid". Mind you, I'm definitely in favor of more studies, and I would not prescribe the keto diet to everyone generically (I don't do it myself), but this is a diet with a long history of being researched. And it continues to be so. If people want to educate themselves, the information is out there. No need to mislead people saying it isn't. Especially compared to a variety of other popular diets.

17 Seconds · Jan 11, 2019

Tabaxi said:
He's not wrong. You can lose weight eating nothing but McDonalds and Twinkies if you end up lowering your overall calorie intake.

Yes you can lose weight that way too, but saying the results will be identical and acting like it's the same thing isnt true at all

Instro · Jan 11, 2019

People cling to specific diets like a religion. Like people walking around in "ketosis".

ConanEd · Jan 11, 2019

John Rabbit said:
....you really have no idea what you're talking about.

LOL. Human being has been on balanced diet for 1 million years (from the time before ancient human like Home Erectus evolved into Homo Sapians), Primarily Starch diet has been used for 5-10 thousand years after the domestication of crops. These diets are proven. Your fancy pan Keto diet is less than 100 year old and the side effect is unknown.

Try harder.

Deleted member 8561 · Jan 11, 2019

nynt9 said:
The long term effects of the diet for weight loss (which are studied in other studies btw, but hey, I'm not going to google that for you) may have not been studied, but the point is that the side effects of the diet don't care about whether you're doing it to help with epilepsy or with weight loss. You'll still experience them. And there have been studies that have looked into that as well. Look, I understand that doing a literature search is hard, especially in nutrition science where there's a lot of seemingly contradicting information out there, but the least you could do is try not to move goalposts by saying "hey those studies were done for different reasons so they're invalid". Mind you, I'm definitely in favor of more studies, and I would not prescribe the keto diet to everyone generically (I don't do it myself), but this is a diet with a long history of being researched. And it continues to be so. If people want to educate themselves, the information is out there. No need to mislead people saying it isn't.

I'm not moving goalposts, I'm literally citing the fucking abstracts that you linked and explained why linking 4/5 abstracts that focus on reducing epileptic seizures using the keto diet is dishonest in relation to using keto has weight loss for people who don't have seizures.

John Rabbit · Jan 11, 2019

ConanEd said:
LOL. Human being has been on balanced diet for 1 million years (from the time before ancient human like Home Erectus evolved into Homo Sapians), Primarily Starch diet has been used for 5-10 thousand years after the domestication of crops. These diets are proven. Your fancy pan Keto diet is less than 100 year old and the side effect is unknown.

Try harder.

Try harder at....what exactly?

Instro said:
People cling to specific diets like a religion. Like people walking around in "ketosis".

You understand that ketosis is an actual metabolic state that exists right? Like it's not magic.

Slayven · Jan 11, 2019

Instro said:
People cling to specific diets like a religion. Like people walking around in "ketosis".

For real, seems like there is a new one every day.

nekkid · Jan 11, 2019

"No analysis", huh?

Ziltoidia 9 · Jan 11, 2019

entremet said:
It's a great momentum driver, but long term it's hard for most to maintain.

Been doing it for almost 2 years now. Honostly, with the replacements I've put in, I don't really even feel a need to go back. Every once in a while I'll have the old way, like, a normal piece of pizza, But there are recipes you can do that simulates crust enough.

Another thing worth mentioning is that just because it's keto, doesn't mean it's healthy. Protein is the key part, get your right amount of protein, and only enough fat (and I recommend healthy fats) to help curb hunger.

iswasdoes · Jan 11, 2019

TheLostBigBoss said:
I'm not moving goalposts, I'm literally citing the fucking abstracts that you linked and explained why linking 4/5 abstracts that focus on reducing epileptic seizures using the keto diet is dishonest in relation to using keto has weight loss for people who don't have seizures.

I haven't read them, but if the studies show that people one the diet for a long time don't have side effects, what does it matter if the point of the study was epilepsy and not weight loss? Still shows the diet doesn't have side effects doesn't it?

spam musubi · Jan 11, 2019

TheLostBigBoss said:
I'm not moving goalposts, I'm literally citing the fucking abstracts that you linked and explained why linking 4/5 abstracts that focus on reducing epileptic seizures using the keto diet is dishonest in relation to using keto has weight loss for people who don't have seizures.

And I'm just saying reading the abstracts of 4 studies that I randomly picked off of google isn't a good representation of the field of study, but hey. You just seem to want to prove your point instead of going deeper into the subject, fine. It's literally what I cautioned against in my initial post. People can educate themselves if they want to, it's cool if you don't.

Deleted member 8468 · Jan 11, 2019

She's going for lowest common denominator for her audience, and a tough diet like keto might not be a good fit for all due to the strictness of foods allowed. That said, she's selling a product.

Swig · Jan 11, 2019

Haven't there been studies that provide evidence that Keto/Paleo are bad for your heart and can cause heart disease?

Krakatoa · Jan 11, 2019

Well one of her friends (Bob Harper) had a massive heart attack and was on Keto at the time.

Joe2187 · Jan 11, 2019

ConanEd said:
LOL. Human being has been on balanced diet for 1 million years (from the time before ancient human like Home Erectus evolved into Homo Sapians), Primarily Starch diet has been used for 5-10 thousand years after the domestication of crops. These diets are proven. Your fancy pan Keto diet is less than 100 year old and the side effect is unknown.

Try harder.

1) Humans have been on this planet roughly only 300,000 years or less
2) ancient humans never ate candies, processed foods, sodas or fast food
3) they had to hunt and survive daily for what they ate
4) This isnt meant for people with normal metabolisms
5) The side effects are well more documented than any other diet around.

Nastrodamous · Jan 11, 2019

i lost 70 pounds in 4 months on keto.

JVID · Jan 11, 2019

Fat is filling, feeling full reduces appetite, eating at a deficit and removing a major source of calories(bread/sugar) causes weight loss. That's basically keto.

808s & Villainy · Jan 11, 2019

subpar spatula said:
Just eat better overall. Diets work as a quick thing but your goal is to change how you eat long term.

And keto does that. Even if you don't stick with it, just conditioning you to eat less carbs is a positive dietary change overall

Lentic · Jan 11, 2019

I think it's great if Keto can help kickstart someone getting into shape, but it doesn't seem to be sustainable long term. The demonization of carbs also seems quite silly. It seems to be far better if a person learns to integrate a more nutritious and healthy diet along with daily exercise and periodic fasts.

I took this from the book The Longevity Diet by Valter Longo. He's a researcher that's been studying the diets of people who live long and healthy lives. I highly recommend reading it. It also goes into how fasting periodically can renew your body's cells and decrease your chances for diseases.

The source of most people's weight problems aren't carbs to begin with. It's a sedentary lifestyle combined with a garbage diet. People didn't used to have these problems.

Kthulhu said:
Makes sense. Keto is good for weight loss, not fat loss. Most of what you're losing is water.

Edit: avoiding it completely seems stupid, but it definitely isn't as perfect as people make it out to be.

That's what I read as well.

Valter Longo said:
In support of a diet high in complex carbohydrates and good fats being the best even for weight management, when a diet very low in carbohydrates (less than 10 percent of calories) and high in protein (more than 20 percent of calories) and fats was compared with a moderate carbohydrate regimen similar to the Okinawan diet, fat loss was similar in both cases.21 However, the low-carbohydrate diet caused a much higher loss of water and proteins, indicating that the seemingly large effect of very low-carb diets on weight loss actually represents loss of water and muscle in addition to fat.

The author encourages a mostly pescatarian diet with low protein, complex carbs and healthy fats.
I'm clearly not an expert though and I'm only trying to present some of the stuff I've been reading. It's sounds like something worth looking into.

subpar spatula · Jan 11, 2019

808s & Villainy said:
And keto does that. Even if you don't stick with it, just conditioning you to eat less carbs is a positive dietary change overall

Keto doesn't do that. It drastically changed your intake. You may as well, ya know, do the same amount of research and eat better overall.

Tabaxi · Jan 11, 2019

iswasdoes said:
Sounds like you're going on your intuition rather than any actual evidence?

There's not much in that regard for Keto specifically, It's not like there isn't a precedent with similar low carb high protein diets.

For example:
http://annals.org/aim/article-abstr...tality-two-cohort?volume=153&issue=5&page=289
http://web.archive.org/web/20120125...nsmedicine.org/diabetes/news/highprotein.html

Again, the Keto can absolutely work to lose weight, but there are absolutely issues with it.

John Rabbit · Jan 11, 2019

subpar spatula said:
Keto doesn't do that. It drastically changed your intake. You may as well, ya know, do the same amount of research and eat better overall.

I eat better overall because of keto.

Cocaloch · Jan 11, 2019

Joe2187 said:
1) Humans have been on this planet roughly only 300,000 years or less

He specifically addressed this, you're talking about modern humans and he said Homo Erectus.

JVID · Jan 11, 2019

Nastrodamous said:
i lost 70 pounds in 4 months on keto.

That's a lot of water.😉

Zoroaster · Jan 11, 2019

I went from 167 pound down to 136 pound my goal was 143 on lazy keto (i only counted carbs in my head) in 1 1/2 months and i also lowered my blood sugar to safe levels.

I ate around 2100 calories / day i guess.

Jillian Micheals " Avoid the Keto Diet at all costs" - Offers little evidence and analysis

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