Jillian Micheals " Avoid the Keto Diet at all costs" - Offers little evidence and analysis

Paznos · Jan 12, 2019

LL_Decitrig said:
If you lost 89lb (40Kg for fuck's sake) and are not dead, you were probably morbidly obese to begin with. If your physician ordered this diet, good for them and well done to you. If you just randomly lost that amount of weight without medical supervision, please see a real doctor as soon as possible. You are probably rather ill.

I started at 239lbs, I'd say I was obese but not morbidly, I lost the weight intentionally and it wasn't random lol, being on keto made losing the weight easier than any other diet I've tried over the years. I've been tracking my macros and make sure to hit my fat and protein goals each day, and no I'm not ill I look and feel better than I have in years and I've been able to keep the weight off.

Rhaknar · Jan 12, 2019

I went from 100kg to 70kg in 1 year on keto, so it worked for me and it was "easy" to cut most carbs. I put on about 3kg this december (damn holidays) which was the first time I "cheated" (well, rather stopped given all the sweets I had lol) since starting, im back on it for realsies since the begining of january to try and go back down to 70 (actually I think the lowest I got was 69).

Then again I dont really go around advertising it and I hate when people ask me what I eat, it just leads to more questions and judgments (at least here everyone always assumes "welp I guess you dont eat meat right?" first thing, which is ironic given what keto is). You do you is my motto, find whatever works for you.

AlwaysSalty · Jan 12, 2019

I tried eating a balanced diet after I went on vacation in early December. Gained a bunch of weight and couldn't get it to come off even though I was hitting the gym 6-7 time a week. Said fuck it and went back on keto 4 days ago and surprise surprise I lost a bunch of weight. I've been on keto for years, and I get physicals and blood work done. It's all good. Diabetes runs in my family and I'm not gonna risk it eating "normal" like they do.

Piscus · Jan 12, 2019

I started the diet to learn self control, without a major need to lose weight. It helped curb my appetites, I slept much better through the night, and my bowel movements were amazing. And I still ended up losing 20 lbs... before the holidays threw me off. But we back in it now!

SaveWeyard · Jan 12, 2019

Draconis said:
Primitive man survived because we as creatures rarely came across fruit or other high sweet items. We are by design built to survive and thrive in a state of ketosis. The human body was built to store sugar as fat if not immediately expended or stored back in muscle beyond what the brain knew it's daily requirements to be. That fat can then be burned as energy, most important of all for the brain which requires fat for the nervous systems health.

If you truly believe ancient man had an abundance of anything but meat and insects and what few vegetables they could find for food, I'm not sure what to tell you besides maybe ask an anthropologist about the matter.

There's a perfectly valid argument to be made for the ketogenic diet, though I'd caution people to not jump into it without serious thought and maybe even consultation with a doctor because it is, like I said before, a medical treatment. This paleo diet pseudoscience, with a touch of weird "human design" nonsense thrown in, is not it.

LL_Decitrig · Jan 12, 2019

House_Of_Lightning said:
You dont need to lose weight. Someone who weighs 320 pounds does.

Yes, they do. Losing weight rapidly is not a good sign, though.

Draconis said:
No offense is intended by me for what I am about to say. So if any is taken please know that.

Noted and appreciated. Courtesy helps to smooth ruffled feathers.

I've trimmed a lot of your response in order to get to what I see as the nub.

Draconis said:
Besides, carbs are not just bread. 300 years ago bread was a hell of a lot healthier than the nutrient deprived, has to be " Enriched " stuff that is out there now.

I live in Britain where we have what we call "plastic" bread, awful stuff, alongside some fairly decent bread that is also quite abundant. Obviously you should choose good food over bad, especially when the price and availability of the good is favourable.

Draconis said:
Give me someone who has been on keto faithfully for one year, and someone who has been counting calories as their only measure for diet. I guarantee you the individual following keto will be far healthier and happier compared to the person just counting calories.

I never counted a calorie in my life. I don't see any good reason to reduce my intake of bread, though. You mention also that you're following a regimen recommended by a medical specialist for a potential susceptibility to a very severe health condition. I think I already commented on the importance of following good medical advice.

TheLostBigBoss said:
If you're eating healthy, non-processed foods, I don't think it really matters what diet you're using or if you're in/out of ketosis. You're going to be living a healthy life and not eating shit.

Eating healthy and balanced has little to do with the process and dieting of keto. Just like the basic functions of a caloric restricted diet doesn't inherently factor in that you can eat 1200 calories if McDonalds every day and still meet the calorie goals.

I think that's the long and short of it. Most people just need to eat healthily, without obsessively watching their weight or trying to drive their bodies into a fat-burning state.

Ingueferroque said:
Bread is not a human right. Bread is not good for you. Yes, it is delicious. And low-carb bread alternatives exist, but people can live perfectly happy and more healthy lives without bread. Bread is addicting and in most cases, filled with sugar.

Eating bread is not eating 'well'.

Eating bread as part of a healthy diet isn't bad for you.

Paznos said:
I started at 239lbs, I'd say I was obese but not morbidly, I lost the weight intentionally and it wasn't random lol, being on keto made losing the weight easier than any other diet I've tried over the years. I've been tracking my macros and make sure to hit my fat and protein goals each day, and no I'm not ill I look and feel better than I have in years and I've been able to keep the weight off.

That's great. I'm relieved to read that.

SaveWeyard said:
There's a perfectly valid argument to be made for the ketogenic diet, though I'd caution people to not jump into it without serious thought and maybe even consultation with a doctor because it is, like I said before, a medical treatment. This paleo diet pseudoscience, with a touch of weird "human design" nonsense thrown in, is not it.

Bingo.

BlueTsunami · Jan 12, 2019

I'm big into that low carb life but the past few months I've been focusing on getting my fiber levels up. Which means I've been eating this

So good

LL_Decitrig · Jan 12, 2019

John Rabbit said:
"Guys keto is a fad diet and fad diets just don't work; just eat this other very specific grouping of foods and you'll be fine."

Yeah, I didn't know who this "Jillian" person was. A promoter of dodgy diets has nothing useful to say about other diets.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jillian_Michaels

EJS · Jan 12, 2019

Everyone I know that has used Keto has had good results. They all acknowledge that you feel like absolute shit the first couple of weeks and when you have a little too many carbs, you also feel like shit. But, one guy at work, for example, said all his joint pain and swelling is gone and he lost 40 pounds and feels infinitely better.

DvdGzz · Jan 12, 2019

Superior energy(glycogen), less carbs=less testosterone, carbs are good for optimal thyroid function, carbs are delicious especially when mixed with fats, fat loss comes down to calories in vs. calories out. I'd never suggest keto to anyone. Weight flies off due to the loss of glycogen stores, not fat stores.

faceless · Jan 12, 2019

TheLostBigBoss said:
Right, but if keto is used because it burns your stored fat, then what reason is there to stay on a low-carb diet if you've taken the steps to fix your overall diet and learned proper nutrition/self control and good eating habits?

when i'm on Keto, even my shit smells great!

Deleted member 11822 · Jan 12, 2019

DvdGzz said:
calories in vs. calories out.

100 calories of candy has the same nutritional as 100 calories of an steak!? That's awesome!!!

faceless · Jan 12, 2019

Luchadeer said:
100 calories of candy has the same nutritional as 100 calories of an steak!? That's awesome!!!

definitely not!

i have a higher calorie intake than on other diets i did before and do the exact same amount of exercise and the results are not even close.

those apple, bread, rice and pasta calories are garbage tier.

Mendrox · Jan 12, 2019

sgtnosboss said:
I am 100% in her boat OP sorry. Its a trend that will pass, and I'm predicting in a few more years with research we will find the long term affects are awful.

edit: I am ok with people using this short term for results, but it really scares me when people say they will do this diet for life.

But many of us do it like for more than 5 years already. It's not a trend that will pass. It's already here to stay and it's also stupid to call it a diet. It's a lifestyle change. Diets don't help anyone. So of course most of us will do it their whole life.

DvdGzz · Jan 12, 2019

Luchadeer said:
100 calories of candy has the same nutritional as 100 calories of an steak!? That's awesome!!!

No, macros are important. When protein and calories are equated fat loss is exactly the same. Weight loss does come down to calories but since protein has such a high thermic effect and helps retain lean body mass it is important to keep it high for favorable body composition.

DvdGzz · Jan 12, 2019

faceless said:
definitely not!

i have a higher calorie intake than on other diets i did before and do the exact same amount of exercise and the results are not even close.

those apple, bread, rice and pasta calories are garbage tier.

So you tracked calories for a while, weighing foods etc while eating the superior macro, carbs, and had bad results? Doubt it. Science and the law of thermodynamics disagrees. This is what I think happened, keto allowed for a higher protein intake and it helped you sustain a calorie deficit. Some people need abstinence from delicious foods, some don't.

sgtnosboss · Jan 12, 2019

Mendrox said:
But many of us do it like for more than 5 years already. It's not a trend that will pass. It's already here to stay and it's also stupid to call it a diet. It's a lifestyle change. Diets don't help anyone. So of course most of us will do it their whole life.

You do you homie, just posting my take. I can see most of this forum does it, would it's not worth debating to get dog piled.

water_wendi · Jan 12, 2019

Calories in, calories out is a lie. i have binged eaten on keto and not only did i not gain weight i kept on losing weight.

Deleted member 21339 · Jan 12, 2019

LL_Decitrig said:
When somebody says something reasonably sensible but you claim she "offers no evidence" I have to say something is wrong here and it's not the opponent of the fad diet.

As if one might hope for a final nail in the coffin of these dangerous fringe diets, WHO just published a huge study showing that exclusion of dietary fibre is lethal on a significant epidemiological level. Eat carbs if you can, folks. If you're epileptic or have been advised on diet by your medically qualified dietitian, continue to follow medical advice.

When you say eat carbs, you're including fruits and vegetables right not just fibrous complex carbs like oats, quinoa, sweet potatoes?

Ragnar · Jan 12, 2019

water_wendi said:
Calories in, calories out is a lie. i have binged eaten on keto and not only did i not gain weight i kept on losing weight.

those apple, bread, rice and pasta calories are garbage tier.

faceless said:
i have a higher calorie intake than on other diets i did before and do the exact same amount of exercise and the results are not even close.

Multiple studies in closed metabolic wards (meaning that they, opposed to you or I, could keep objective and precise track of calorie intake) have shown that calorie-matched low-carb and high-carb diets produce the exact same levels of fat loss.

Two example studies; one in a closed metabolic ward and one where all food and beverage was provided to the participants:

https://academic.oup.com/ajcn/article/104/2/324/4564649
https://academic.oup.com/ajcn/article/83/5/1055/4649481

Neither showed any significant difference in fat loss between the groups.

Personal experience is important, and if a ketogenic diet helps you lose fat, go for it. But please realize that multiple well-designed studies show that calorie-matched diets provide the same results, which means that ketogenic diets work not because they induce ketosis but because they tend to make people eat fewer calories.

Fulminator · Jan 12, 2019

does anyone have any good resources for getting into a keto diet?

this thread is making me curious to try it again, but I've always failed due to lack of good preparation. Also i guess a misconception that you need to eat a lot of dairy.

Joe2187 · Jan 12, 2019

Fulminator said:
does anyone have any good resources for getting into a keto diet?

this thread is making me curious to try it again, but I've always failed due to lack of good preparation. Also i guess a misconception that you need to eat a lot of dairy.

This is a good in depth primer, you dont need to buy any meal plans or apps just use it as an info guide really

https://www.ruled.me/guide-keto-diet/

ZackieChan · Jan 12, 2019

Broken Hope said:
But it is that simple, unless you're going to show me someone on Keto eating well over their TDEE and still losing weight?

I lost 160lb like 8 years ago, regained some due to being in a relationship with bad eating habits and then lost everything I gained once that relationship ended and returned to my previous habits.

All this just doing simple CICO, but what do I know?

There's a bunch on YouTube. Jason Witrock, for example.

Calamari41 said:
Long story short is that you subtract the fiber from the total carbs, because the fiber isn't absorbed into your body.

Also sugar alcohols

LL_Decitrig said:
That's cultish nonsense. There is no such thing as a diet that must be followed "to the letter." Eat well and you'll thrive. If you're able to eat bread, for instance, eat it when you like. It's lovely stuff and you will enjoy life. If you're unable to eat bread, find alternatives but please don't pretend that bread is horrible just because it doesn't work for you.

As opposed to non-specific, meaningless platitudes like "eat well and thrive".

Deleted member 1635 · Jan 12, 2019

Ragnar said:
Multiple studies in closed metabolic wards (meaning that they, opposed to you or I, could keep objective and precise track of calorie intake) have shown that calorie-matched low-carb and high-carb diets produce the exact same levels of fat loss.

Two example studies; one in a closed metabolic ward and one where all food and beverage was provided to the participants:

https://academic.oup.com/ajcn/article/104/2/324/4564649
https://academic.oup.com/ajcn/article/83/5/1055/4649481

Neither showed any significant difference in fat loss between the groups.

Personal experience is important, and if a ketogenic diet helps you lose fat, go for it. But please realize that multiple well-designed studies show that calorie-matched diets provide the same results, which means that ketogenic diets work not because they induce ketosis but because they tend to make people eat fewer calories.

What needs to be tested is weight gain. If you construct multiple diets with reduced caloric intake (I only glanced at those two, but one study has CI at a very low 1500 kcal per day), then nearly identical weight loss is not surprising. What lots of people are observing is that they can eat lots more without putting on fat on low/no-carb diets. There are lots of self studies out there, but I would love to see a controlled ward study that actually looks at weight gain effects of, say, two diets at 3,500 or 4,000 kcal per day, with one being high carb and the other containing next to no carbs. In my own personal observations, the high-carb diet would gain a lot of weight while the low-carb would not.

Segafreak · Jan 12, 2019

Joe2187 said:
1) Helps regulate your blood insulin sensitivity
2) Helps reduce your appetite so overeaters can curb their cravings
3) Weight Loss
4) Clearer mental health more focused thinking
5) Increases your energy and helps stress.

If you are a healthy individual, there's no reason for you to be doing any sort of special diet besides eating healthy non processed foods and proper sized portions. However the benefits for those that have issues like the above are not something to be avoided because a celebrity fitness trainer says so.

She's giving a bunch of misinformation that seems to primarily focus on promoting herself really.

Keto diet fucking sucks. lol "clearer mental health and focused thinking, increases energy"

I tried it a few years ago when it was popular around here, it was the worst of times. Constantly feeling like shit even weeks into the program, constantly having to eat shit supplements, water that starts to taste like metal.

The terrible thing about keto diet is that your metabolism adjusts to the 1000-1400kcal or whatever daily intake, so it becomes the norm for your body, but once you start eating normal again (2000-2500kcal) your body sees those as extra ~1000kcal, and thats why people who start keto and stop it start to gain weight again rapidly, even more than before sometimes.

Most people cannot sustain being on ketosis for months. And then something called the yo-yo effect begins.

"The keto diet can also lead to yo-yo dieting, because people have difficulty staying on the restrictive diet permanently. That can have other negative effects on the body. There are few long-term studies on the keto diet, which may be because it's difficult to follow, so people aren't staying on it for a long time "

https://www.healthline.com/health-news/worst-side-effects-of-the-keto-diet

The best diet is simple:
-exercise enough/strength training (abs burn more fat and longer)
-cardio (20 min is enough)
-don't eat shit food aka fast food etc
-WAIT, these things take time

How difficult can it be?

Deleted member 11822 · Jan 12, 2019

faceless said:
definitely not!

i have a higher calorie intake than on other diets i did before and do the exact same amount of exercise and the results are not even close.

those apple, bread, rice and pasta calories are garbage tier.

Aye, apologies I was being a jerk. Calories in calories out is just some nonsense to me.

JVID · Jan 12, 2019

Segafreak said:
Keto diet fucking sucks. lol "clearer mental health and focused thinking, increases energy"

I tried it a few years ago when it was popular around here, it was the worst of times. Constantly feeling like shit even weeks into the program, constantly having to eat shit supplements, water that starts to taste like metal.

The terrible thing about keto diet is that your metabolism adjusts to the 1000-1400kcal or whatever daily intake, so it becomes the norm for your body, but once you start eating normal again (2000-2500kcal) your body sees those as extra ~1000kcal, and thats why people who start keto and stop it start to gain weight again rapidly, even more than before sometimes.

Most people cannot sustain being on ketosis for months. And then something called the yo-yo effect begins.

"The keto diet can also lead to yo-yo dieting, because people have difficulty staying on the restrictive diet permanently. That can have other negative effects on the body. There are few long-term studies on the keto diet, which may be because it's difficult to follow, so people aren't staying on it for a long time "

https://www.healthline.com/health-news/worst-side-effects-of-the-keto-diet

The best diet is simple:
-exercise enough/strength training (abs burn more fat and longer)
-cardio (20 min is enough)
-don't eat shit food aka fast food etc
-WAIT, these things take time

How difficult can it be?

This post fucking sucks.

Deleted member 1635 · Jan 12, 2019

Segafreak said:
The terrible thing about keto diet is that your metabolism adjusts to the 1000-1400kcal or whatever daily intake, so it becomes the norm for your body, but once you start eating normal again (2000-2500kcal) your body sees those as extra ~1000kcal, and thats why people who start keto and stop it start to gain weight again rapidly, even more than before sometimes.

Anyone who goes back to their poor eating habits that got them fat in the first place will regain the weight. It happens with almost every single person who has ever tried to lose weight.

LL_Decitrig · Jan 12, 2019

JB1981 said:
When you say eat carbs, you're including fruits and vegetables right not just fibrous complex carbs like oats, quinoa, sweet potatoes?

The carbohydrate content of many foodstuffs isn't the principal reason to include them in your larder. But yes, my essential message is that picky eating isn't a great idea. Speaking of which:

ZackieChan said:
As opposed to non-specific, meaningless platitudes like "eat well and thrive".

It's far from a meaningless platitude. Inexpensive, abundant and diverse fresh or frozen food is now available in more regions than ever before. It's easy to avoid fads and trends and processed food. Unless you're dangerously overweight, you're probably already eating well enough. Enjoy!

JVID · Jan 12, 2019

Zefah said:
Anyone who goes back to their poor eating habits that got them fat in the first place will regain the weight. It happens with almost every single person who has ever tried to lose weight.

Yeah. Maybe they shouldn't go back to eating 2000-2500 calories a day.. Calculate your maintenance calories and stick to that.

Deleted member 8561 · Jan 12, 2019

water_wendi said:
Calories in, calories out is a lie. i have binged eaten on keto and not only did i not gain weight i kept on losing weight.

Personal anecdotes does not mean that something basic as CICO is "a lie"

I don't think it's exactly a good thing that you can binge eat and still lose weight. That's just reinforcing horrible and dangerous eating habits.

Fulminator · Jan 12, 2019

Joe2187 said:
This is a good in depth primer, you dont need to buy any meal plans or apps just use it as an info guide really

https://www.ruled.me/guide-keto-diet/

thanks i will look into it

Deleted member 16516 · Jan 12, 2019

Been following the Keto lifestyle for nearly 5 years now and have never felt better. In the best condition of my life.

water_wendi · Jan 12, 2019

Ragnar said:
Multiple studies in closed metabolic wards (meaning that they, opposed to you or I, could keep objective and precise track of calorie intake) have shown that calorie-matched low-carb and high-carb diets produce the exact same levels of fat loss.

Two example studies; one in a closed metabolic ward and one where all food and beverage was provided to the participants:

https://academic.oup.com/ajcn/article/104/2/324/4564649
https://academic.oup.com/ajcn/article/83/5/1055/4649481

Neither showed any significant difference in fat loss between the groups.

Personal experience is important, and if a ketogenic diet helps you lose fat, go for it. But please realize that multiple well-designed studies show that calorie-matched diets provide the same results, which means that ketogenic diets work not because they induce ketosis but because they tend to make people eat fewer calories.

im off for work so i dont have much time but those studies dont address "Calories in, calories out" as its used. CICO is what people say when they want to call fat people lazy.

TheLostBigBoss said:
Personal anecdotes does not mean that something basic as CICO is "a lie"

With how people just say CICO like you can just jog off weight it absolutely is.

I don't think it's exactly a good thing that you can binge eat and still lose weight. That's just reinforcing horrible and dangerous eating habits.

i didnt say it was a good thing but its the truth. If i could somehow get 4,000 calories of fat/protein down while in ketosis i would not gain weight.

Deleted member 8561 · Jan 12, 2019

water_wendi said:
im off for work so i dont have much time but those studies dont address "Calories in, calories out" as its used. CICO is what people say when they want to call fat people lazy.

With how people just say CICO like you can just jog off weight it absolutely is.

i didnt say it was a good thing but its the truth. If i could somehow get 4,000 calories of fat/protein down while in ketosis i would not gain weight.

You don't see the irony in claiming CICO is basically a lie and that running caloric deficit doesn't produce weight loss... while in the same post claiming you can consume 4000 calories a day while in ketosis and not gain a single pound?

Drizzy Finks · Jan 12, 2019

I was on keto for almost 4 months some time ago and lost about 20 lbs. Even after I stopped it though, I never gained back all of the weight even after eating pretty poorly for a long while, though I did gain back some.

I'm back on it now and have adjusted to it quickly. I definitely feel better when I'm on it, in the long run - though I do miss carbs. Eventually though the thought and consumption of significant carbs sickens me when I'm full keto.

Calamari41 · Jan 12, 2019

TheLostBigBoss said:
You don't see the irony in claiming CICO is basically a lie and that running caloric deficit doesn't produce weight loss... while in the same post claiming you can consume 4000 calories a day while in ketosis and not gain a single pound?

My weight loss was pretty much a consistent slope downward, close to a straight line, no matter how much I ate, whether that means I was busy and skipped a meal or whether I made something delicious and ate a lot more than I normally do. Likewise, my weight is consistent today no matter how much I eat. The only thing that will make me gain weight is eating more carbs than I should for an extended period.

I already know you're just going to call it a worthless anecdote, but at least there are two of them now.

Deleted member 8561 · Jan 12, 2019

Calamari41 said:
My weight loss was pretty much a consistent slope downward, close to a straight line, no matter how much I ate, whether that means I was busy and skipped a meal or whether I made something delicious and ate a lot more than I normally do. Likewise, my weight is consistent today no matter how much I eat. The only thing that will make me gain weight is eating more carbs than I should for an extended period.

I already know you're just going to call it a worthless anecdote, but at least there are two of them now.

...well yea if you're in ketosis that's exactly what should happen, thats the water weight coming back

It's not that strange that your diet fluctuates a bit and your weight stays in a rather constant/constant trendline. Most diets aren't that sensitive to a short term change in food intake (unless it's drastic) to where you will suddenly balloon back up in weight.

The Great Khali · Jan 12, 2019

If you enjoy these diets it's fine. I personally enjoy eating food. I wouldn't ever want to restrict myself life is too short. As long as I keep control and don't over indulge I prefer a simple balanced diet without having to worry about dieting.

Calamari41 · Jan 12, 2019

TheLostBigBoss said:
...well yea if you're in ketosis that's exactly what should happen, thats the water weight coming back

All of your replies to me read like you think you're owning me or pointing out an inconsistency, when they don't, and meanwhile you completely ignore the rest of my point. It's really annoying and shows me that you aren't here to talk about this in good faith.

Deleted member 8561 · Jan 12, 2019

Calamari41 said:
All of your replies to me read like you think you're owning me or pointing out an inconsistency, when they don't, and meanwhile you completely ignore the rest of my point. It's really annoying and shows me that you aren't here to talk about this in good faith.

I'm not the one claiming that people can consume 4K calories on keto and not gain weight.

Most diets aren't sensitive to the point where short term diet fluctuations balloon people back up. It takes drastic changes of diet to have a sudden jump in weight (that is beyond the normal deviation on a day to day basis), or a change in diet over a moderate period of time to see weight gain.

Most people know keto works, the criticism of keto go beyond that fact it helps people lose weight, and are mainly focused on the ridiculous claims that accompany the diet, like the claims OP wrote while casually ignoring the very real and common negative side effects people face on the diet as well. It stop being just a diet and starts becoming something that can't even be talked about because people go apeshit when you question or point out that what they are saying doesn't really have much backing other than "feeling better" when they are losing weight and eating healthier.

Everyone is ok with all the rather glowing personal anecdotes of keto, yet when someone has a negative experience and has a similarly inverse personal anecdote that is extremely negative they are just trolls? Seems a bit hypocritical to me.

I don't even have any issues with keto beyond the possible consequence of not fixing ones diet and eating habits while still losing weight, as well as the the fact keto as a tool for weight loss is new and not all that understood of how it can effect the body long term. Almost all my criticism are with the people who advocate for it and say things that are unreasonable or outlandish.

Calamari41 · Jan 12, 2019

TheLostBigBoss said:
I'm not the one claiming that people can consume 4K calories on keto and not gain weight.

Most diets aren't sensitive to the point where short term diet fluctuations balloon people back up. It takes drastic changes of diet to have a sudden jump in weight (that is beyond the normal deviation on a day to day basis), or a change in diet over a moderate period of time to see weight gain.

Most people know keto works, the criticism of keto go beyond that fact it helps people lose weight, and are mainly focused on the ridiculous claims that accompany the diet, like the claims OP wrote while casually ignoring the very real and common negative side effects people face on the diet as well. It stop being just a diet and starts becoming something that can't even be talked about because people go apeshit when you question or point out that what they are saying doesn't really have much backing other than "feeling better" when they are losing weight and eating healthier.

Everyone is ok with all the rather glowing personal anecdotes of keto, yet when someone has a negative experience and has a similarly inverse personal anecdote that is extremely negative they are just trolls? Seems a bit hypocritical to me.

It's not about your arguments like the one you made here. It's your snarky replies which ignore everything someone said to point out something you think is an inconsistency. Like when I posted some of the food I eat, said that it would get you into keto, and asked what I was missing nutritionally. Your reply was "ho ho, you know it takes days to get into keto, right?"

Worthless to attempt a discussion. I apologize for having done so a couple of times.

Philia · Jan 12, 2019

Keto and Carnivore diet did wonders for my migraines. It nearly eliminated them completely!

Deleted member 8561 · Jan 12, 2019

Calamari41 said:
It's not about your arguments like the one you made here. It's your snarky replies which ignore everything someone said to point out something you think is an inconsistency. Like when I posted some of the food I eat, said that it would get you into keto, and asked what I was missing nutritionally. Your reply was "ho ho, you know it takes days to get into keto, right?"

Worthless to attempt a discussion. I apologize for having done so a couple of times.

Sorry, you're getting mad at me because your post about a single meal forcing ketosis was factually incorrect? Your post about eating a low carb meal as somehow being "more/less healthy" than one with a higher amount of carbs has nothing to do with forcing your body into ketosis and the effects of ketosis on the body on the timescale of years/decades specifically for weight loss.

All you're doing is tone policing and not even talking about anything in the thread

bye · Jan 12, 2019

The diet works because it teaches people self-control, that sugar is bad, what healthy proteins and fats are, and that carbs don't need to be a mainstay in a daily diet. If you can maintain a level of self control it's not necessary to stick to the diet to continue to lose weight or be healthy, I think of it more as a learning tool that is good for fast weight loss.

Segafreak · Jan 12, 2019

Zefah said:
Anyone who goes back to their poor eating habits that got them fat in the first place will regain the weight. It happens with almost every single person who has ever tried to lose weight.

No, you misunderstand my post. Even if you eat healthily, if you go above your threshold, your body sees it as "extra".

Keto diet conditions your body to make the ~1000-1400kcal/day the new normal. If you go back to 2500kcal it's ~1000kcal extra a day.

Deleted member 8561 · Jan 12, 2019

Segafreak said:
No, you misunderstand my post. Even if you eat healthily, if you go above your threshold, your body sees it as "extra".

Keto diet conditions your body to make the ~1000-1400kcal/day the new normal.

If you consume more than your body needs it's gonna store it somewhere.

It's kinda why we have an obesity crisis, people have a massive amount of cheap, high calorie foods that are designed to make them addicted and not feeling full.

Over-consumption is the core issue of weight gain, you can eat healthy and still over eat.

Calamari41 · Jan 12, 2019

TheLostBigBoss said:
Sorry, you're getting mad at me because your post about a single meal forcing ketosis was factually incorrect? Your post about eating a low carb meal as somehow being "more/less healthy" than one with a higher amount of carbs has nothing to do with forcing your body into ketosis and the effects of ketosis on the body on the timescale of years/decades specifically for weight loss.

I clarified after your snark that I eat like that every day and have for 8 years, but you had nothing else to say on it. I was not arguing that one day like that will put you into ketosis. I was asking you what somebody who eats like that is missing nutritionally. Then, here we are again, I tell you about my experience with CICO and you point to water weight as if you've dismantled me. The point about me gaining weight only when I eat too many carbs was not reliant on that weight not being water weight. And it wasn't my main point, which you also ignored.

I'm not tone policing, I'm asking you to stop ignoring my points if you're going to respond to me. And I am absolutely talking about the topic of the thread. Ridiculous assertion.

Deleted member 8561 · Jan 12, 2019

Calamari41 said:
I clarified after your snark that I eat like that every day and have for 8 years, but you had nothing else to say on it. I was not arguing that one day like that will put you into ketosis. I was asking you what somebody who eats like that is missing nutritionally. Then, here we are again, I tell you about my experience with CICO and you point to water weight as if you've dismantled me. The point about me gaining weight only when I eat too many carbs was not reliant on that weight not being water weight. And it wasn't my main point, which you also ignored.

I'm not tone policing, I'm asking you to stop ignoring my points if you're going to respond to me. And I am absolutely talking about the topic of the thread. Ridiculous assertion.

What are your points? You literally just ranted about me not being nice or having snark, or how you seem hurt that I didn't follow up on one of your posts.

I don't have anything else to say on it because it has nothing to do with the actual topic. If people get their nutrients on their diet... then good? Not exactly sure what getting all your nutriants has to do with keto potentially increasing CV issues in people who are already at higher risk of CV disease, which was the context of the conversation when you started quoting me.

I'm not trying to dismantle you or what ever you think I'm doing. You're making points and arguments which are logically consistent with how a lot of diets work, and specifically with keto where if you go off ketosis you will rapidly gain your water weight back. Even CICO if you fall off the wagon, unless you're eating KFC and chocolate cake for a week, you're going to be ok and you can continue on your diet with minimum consequence.

It's hard for me to really read into your points when most of what you're writing is just complaining.

Calamari41 · Jan 12, 2019

TheLostBigBoss said:
What are your points? You literally just ranted about me not being nice or having snark, or how you seem hurt that I didn't follow up on one of your posts.

I don't have anything else to say on it because it has nothing to do with the actual topic. If people get their nutrients on their diet... then good? Not exactly sure what getting all your nutriants has to do with keto potentially increasing CV issues in people who are already at higher risk of CV disease, which was the context of the conversation when you started quoting me.

I'm not trying to dismantle you or what ever you think I'm doing. You're making points and arguments which are logically consistent with how a lot of diets work, and specifically with keto where if you go off ketosis you will rapidly gain your water weight back. Even CICO if you fall off the wagon, unless you're eating KFC and chocolate cake for a week, you're going to be ok and you can continue on your diet with minimum consequence.

It's hard for me to really read into your points when most of what you're writing is just complaining.

You're being obtuse. The topic that everyone was discussing back then was nutrition on this kind of diet, and whether people were doing damage to their organs, with your point generally being that people who eat like this are not getting what they need. Or at least that there weren't studies done on it. You were citing a lack of fruit specifically. So I posted my diet and asked what was missing. It was absolutely relevant to the topic being discussed, in fact several other people managed to get my point and discuss it with me.

To my latest point, you were asking someone in disbelief if they actually thought that they wouldn't gain weight if they had a bad day as far as calories go. I responded saying that I've had the same experience, generally, that they've had. Absolutely relevant to the topic being discussed. For example, if you read my post, you'd see that my main point isn't that I gained weight if I ate too many carbs. The main point is that I kept losing weight even if I ate too many non-carb calories. This is specifically what you were in disbelief about with regards to the other poster.

Of course I'm complaining in this instance, I was trying to let you know that you were ignoring the actual points being made and focusing instead on misinterpretations of tangential statements.

Anyway, I don't want to start a derail here, so I'll leave it at that.

Jillian Micheals " Avoid the Keto Diet at all costs" - Offers little evidence and analysis

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