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Gentlemen

Member
Oct 25, 2017
9,526
Irrelevant. Lots of people and companies donate to politicians. Doesn't mean they were writing tax laws. If all it takes is supporting the GOP then almost half the country is guilty of this situation.
Look if you don't want to talk about how tax loopholes are created and maintained for the benefit of billionaires than don't ask for evidence of it happening. In fact, maybe stay out of threads where the topic of discussion is the creation, maintenance and exploitation of tax loopholes by billionaires.
 

Waddle Dee

Banned
Nov 2, 2017
3,725
California
You can't help yourself, can you? All I did was post facts, and a link to the actual report the video was based on. Instead of a thank you, you attack me for no reason. Grow up.

"All I did was post facts (and logic)".

Uh huh. I'm sure you have no ulterior motivations or anything for why you always bulldoze your way into these threads complaining about giant corporations do shady shit.
 

Sheepinator

Member
Jul 25, 2018
28,008
Look if you don't want to talk about how tax loopholes are created and maintained for the benefit of billionaires than don't ask for evidence of it happening. In fact, maybe stay out of threads where the topic of discussion is the creation, maintenance and exploitation of tax loopholes by billionaires.
You're the one who brought up the issue of who influences the laws, implying it was Activision. I asked for evidence. Still waiting. I've posted plenty in this topic about how this stuff benefits the rich. Perhaps you missed all those posts.
 

Sheepinator

Member
Jul 25, 2018
28,008
"All I did was post facts (and logic)".

Uh huh. I'm sure you have no ulterior motivations or anything for why you always bulldoze your way into these threads complaining about giant corporations do shady shit.
I posted a link to the report. For some reason you didn't like that, so your contribution to the topic was name calling.
 

Gentlemen

Member
Oct 25, 2017
9,526
You're the one who brought up the issue of who influences the laws, implying it was Activision.
And I posted political donation records by an ACTI board member and the investment company he runs to the GOP.

Maybe you think the donation is *completely unrelated* to the GOP's stated tax policies and not at all driven by a desire to see ACTI's tax burdens zeroed out, which materially benefits both him and his investment firm.

I think that's a naive position to put it politely.
 

-shadow-

One Winged Slayer
Member
Oct 25, 2017
6,110
The GOP theory is that when the rich get richer, it trickles down and helps the economy. In reality, the companies use their windfall to buy more of their own stock, which enriches those who own the most stock, i.e. executives and large shareholders. A rising stock market also makes regular folks "feel" richer, even if their stock ownership isn't anywhere near as much as the rich have. While it's true that the wealthiest people likely spend more, there are only so many houses and yachts one person can use, plus they may be spending between each other, e.g. buying an expensive house or painting from a similarly wealthy person. This was all known in advance of the tax reform last year. Gary Cohn was speaking to a room full of CEO's before the tax plan passed and they were asked how many of them planned to increase capex spending after the tax cuts and almost none of them raised their hand. It was self-serving by Trump too. Parts of the plan looked custom designed to benefit his business, which he did not divest from, and although he told people the tax plan was going to be "very bad for me, believe me", estimates are he profits about $15M per year from it.

In some of the cases the companies get tax credits for various things, typically pushed for by lobbyists. Or they get tax breaks from States to invest, like Amazon does. Ubi and I assume EA benefit from tax credits in Quebec, up to 37.% of developer salaries iirc.

It's important to remember too that the companies are paying taxes, but much of their taxes paid are elsewhere, and the US (rightly) doesn't double tax.
Still the entire trickle down logic? I would've figured that at this point that was proven to not work. But alrighty then...
 

Sheepinator

Member
Jul 25, 2018
28,008
And I posted political donation records by an ACTI board member and the investment company he runs to the GOP.

Maybe you think the donation is *completely unrelated* to the GOP's stated tax policies and not at all driven by a desire to see ACTI's tax burdens zeroed out, which materially benefits both him and his investment firm.

I think that's a naive position to put it politely.
There's a difference between donating to a politician, which tens of millions of people do, and paying for lobbyists to influence tax laws. Perhaps Activision has done the latter, as you implied. All I'm saying is you're the one who brought it up and you still haven't shown that to be the case.
 

Deleted member 46922

User requested account closure
Banned
Aug 21, 2018
595
This was told many years ago by our Prime-minister. He said the most important thing to do was making our country attractive for companies to settle. When Goldman Sachs started moving from the UK to the Netherlands it was very clear how he was going to do this.
So no surprise here that we're actually the new paradise for big companies.
Weird if you combine this with the fact that we're an extremely left wing country compared to most other Western countries.
 

Podge293

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
5,760
They've better tax accountants than you.

The 800 are unrelated. They're in shitty performing divisions. Why keep dead wood
 

Deleted member 888

User requested account closure
Banned
Oct 25, 2017
14,361
Shout out to Super Bunnyhop for this from 2017



At the very least this should stop the "starving developer needs to ass ram us with paid shit to survive" narrative.
 

Pryme

Member
Aug 23, 2018
8,164
We should all probably give them our first born children as thralls so they can keep making games.

It's only fair.

On another note, threadwhining like a little baby in a Jim Sterling thread should not be a warning by now but a straight up week ban or something. No one's forcing you to enter a thread. Any thread. FOH with the same shit every time. Grow up.

Ironic that You say this with a post filled with personal insults towards another forum member.

Try to engage respectfully.
 

Demacabre

Member
Nov 20, 2017
2,058
They've better tax accountants than you.

The 800 are unrelated. They're in shitty performing divisions. Why keep dead wood

Exactly. They are taking advantage of a system in place and we should all absolve them and blame the system.

Also unless you have definitive proof of a direct link to the bank transaction, they don't lobby for this. The donations are a coincidence. And if you do have the link, I have another excuse lined up for them.

Stop picking on the billionaires. They have it rough.
 

Podge293

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
5,760
Exactly. They are taking advantage of a system in place and we should all absolve them and blame the system.

Also unless you have definitive proof of a direct link to the bank transaction, they don't lobby for this. And if you do have the link, I have another excuse lined up for them.

Stop picking on the billionaires.

Hardly an excuse when it's a fact.

For profit companies don't exist for happy go lucky times. They exist to increase the wealth of shareholders
 

Podge293

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
5,760
almost like the system that makes you view people as dead wood is a bad thing

Thousands of people get made redundant every day. It's how business works. Why hamper you're overall growth with divisions that perform poorly.

Thinking that oh because they made X million profit this year and that year means they should never close divisions is just stupid
 

kdm

Member
Oct 30, 2017
28
Correct, except for as you are probably aware they are paying income taxes internationally. Also the figures shown are tax expenses, not actual tax liabilities. They are further muddied by the one-time repatriation Transition Tax from the new tax reform. 2017's US federal tax expense from Activision was $696M, 2018 was ($228M).

You are correct. In the mean time, a whole bunch of people running around here, like chickens with their heads cut off, spouting that their tax contributions are paying for Activision to do business.
 

saenima

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
11,892
Try to engage respectfully.

I engage respectfully with people who deserve to be engaged respectfully. All Era threads are completely, 100% optional. Unless there are people out there being kidnapped and forced to click on Era threads at gunpoint, no one is obliged to be here. Jim Sterling threads in particular have a very long history, all the way back to gaf, of being littered with entitled children who feel that their personal gripes are more important than the right of other forum users to freely discuss these subjects. It's especially jarring when you take the current thread's subject matter into account. Why don't you go chastize these threadwhiners for showing a severe lack of respect for everyone else in this thread?
 

Deleted member 8752

User requested account closure
Banned
Oct 26, 2017
10,122
I think i get what youre saying, but to me its just not something i can hand wave away. I do blame them.

Yes the laws need to be changed because its the only way these greedy fucks can be kept in check, but that doesnt absolve them. They know what they are doing is wrong, they simply dont care.

Its like excusing the horrors of child labor in the 1800s.

"Well ofcourse they exploited children and worked many of them to an early grave, there were no laws telling them not to! Wouldn't you do the same if you could? Wouldnt it be immoral not to provide your investors with maximum return on their investment?"

Your analogy doesn't work though. Most people didn't get mad at companies for employing children in the industrial revolution. They got mad at law makers, as well they should.

You cannot put the onus on for-profit corporations to behave more generously than the law or their customer base requires.

The law makers are supposed to implement rules which reflect the morals and will of their constituencies. When they don't, they are supposed to be voted out by their voting base.

Corporations are supposed to generate maximum revenue for their shareholders by legal means. When they don't, the boards of directors are voted out and/or their value decreases.

By stating this is some corporate rather than governmental moral failing, you undermine the role of government and are actually unonformed about the roles of corporations.

If you want them to behave more ethically, you have to change the rules by which they're competing and doing business.
 

Deleted member 41502

User requested account closure
Banned
Mar 28, 2018
1,177
It's always crazy to me that govt acts like these tax havens are just too difficult to fix, but if your an American living overseas they'll track all your income to the ends of the Earth to make sure you file every penny.
 

demondance

Member
Oct 27, 2017
3,808
People need to realize that huge businesses like these essentially function as undemocratic fiefdoms, with their own standards and requirements and laws to follow that none of their employees have any real say in. The more we hand them the reins of society, the less our actual democracy has any role in how we live our lives in a daily, material sense.

Our current political class serve the role of pirates, literally stripping public assets and democratic power and handing it to their friends and family. Activision of course would be insane not to take advantage of the opportunity to skip out on taxes, but that just drives home my first point: they aren't at all driven to build a better society, they exist to drive growth. And the fruits of that growth don't exactly "trickle down" very far. Acting like the value they create -- when they're laying off hundreds in the midst of record growth -- is so great for society that they shouldn't pay in is ridiculous.
 

Keasar

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
5,724
UmeĂĄ, Sweden
Thousands of people get made redundant every day. It's how business works. Why hamper you're overall growth with divisions that perform poorly.

Thinking that oh because they made X million profit this year and that year means they should never close divisions is just stupid
This just sounds like businesses needs to be state run that are more interested in population health and welfare than profits does it not?
 

ArnoldJRimmer

Banned
Aug 22, 2018
1,322
Your analogy doesn't work though. Most people didn't get mad at companies for employing children in the industrial revolution. They got mad at law makers, as well they should.

You cannot put the onus on for-profit corporations to behave more generously than the law or their customer base requires.

The law makers are supposed to implement rules which reflect the morals and will of their constituencies. When they don't, they are supposed to be voted out by their voting base.

Corporations are supposed to generate maximum revenue for their shareholders by legal means. When they don't, the boards of directors are voted out and/or their value decreases.

By stating this is some corporate rather than governmental moral failing, you undermine the role of government and are actually unonformed about the roles of corporations.

If you want them to behave more ethically, you have to change the rules by which they're competing and doing business.


I'm not uninformed. I understand that this how it works. I also understand it is wrong. It is immoral. It is exploitative. It is a net negative for humanity.

You appear to think that because it is, it must be good. That they are blameless because without laws they are right to act like psychopaths. That's just not how the world works.

Especially when they themselves have a huge level of influence over our laws, to their great benefit.

You are in essence saying that yes, it was totally ok to exploit children because there were no laws to protect them. They are blameless and only doing what they should have been doing. And that's a load of crock.
 

Switch

Banned
Oct 27, 2017
1,021
Wales
Sure, I'd expect most companies do be paying as little taxes as possible. I'd expect anyone to be paying as little taxes as possible. But weird to be like "well what about how much Jim pays!" - like, what? What Jim pays doesn't change the fact that corporate taxes are in dire need of reform.

Why doesn't Jim come clean, tell us how much he earns and his tax bill, Its all very well having a go at so-called evil corps? I very much doubt Activision is breaking any law either in the USA or EU. Just like people, most corps will look to pay as little tax as they can and use various lop holes.

I claim a tax break for uniforms (cost of washing), while other workers won't. I and no doubt many others have Gov ISA. One can dress it up all ones want', that's a form of looking to pay less tax on one's savings, while others pay tax on theirs. The Tax code is so complex and what's to blame in all this
I'm sick to death of both Labour and the Tories saying that reduce the tax code, only to add to the red book with hundreds of pages with each new parliament. I would imagine the same is true in the USA.
 

Switch

Banned
Oct 27, 2017
1,021
Wales
I. I use every legal advantage I can get and my effective tax rate this year was so low I felt kind of gross.
.

That's it, most will look to pay what little tax they can. I don't blame the people or the corps, but the people we elect and put in office who write the tax code and make it so complex
 

Jakisthe

Member
Oct 25, 2017
5,578
Why doesn't Jim come clean, tell us how much he earns and his tax bill, Its all very well having a go at so-called evil corps? I very much doubt Activision is breaking any law either in the USA or EU. Just like people, most corps will look to pay as little tax as they can and use various lop holes.

I claim a tax break for uniforms (cost of washing), while other workers won't. I and no doubt many others have Gov ISA. One can dress it up all ones want', that's a form of looking to pay less tax on one's savings, while others pay tax on theirs. The Tax code is so complex and what's to blame in all this
I'm sick to death of both Labour and the Tories saying that reduce the tax code, only to add to the red book with hundreds of pages with each new parliament. I would imagine the same is true in the USA.
No one is saying they're breaking tax laws, and again, how much Jim personally makes continues to have absolutely no relation whatsoever to how much Activision pays.
 
OP
OP
Baccus

Baccus

Banned
Dec 4, 2018
5,307
No they create a loopholed tax regulation because they are corrupt and hence they are in the pockets of corporations. Buy you know, that's still on them. They made the choice to take the money.
If you need your institutions to be ran by angels so they act fairly, then your system is broken.
 

Deleted member 8752

User requested account closure
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Oct 26, 2017
10,122
I'm not uninformed. I understand that this how it works. I also understand it is wrong. It is immoral. It is exploitative. It is a net negative for humanity.

You appear to think that because it is, it must be good. That they are blameless because without laws they are right to act like psychopaths. That's just not how the world works.

Especially when they themselves have a huge level of influence over our laws, to their great benefit.

You are in essence saying that yes, it was totally ok to exploit children because there were no laws to protect them. They are blameless and only doing what they should have been doing. And that's a load of crock.
Do you really think the device you used to post in this thread didn't come from exploited children? It's wrong, of course. That's not the point. The point is where should the blame lie?

It's systemic. Not due to one individual bad actor. So the rules of the system, and it's rule makers, are responsible for the blame.

You can't blame corporate officers for planning their businesses in the most tax effective fashion when the rules allow for it and their shareholders demand it.
 
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Deleted member 8593

User requested account closure
Banned
Oct 26, 2017
27,176
Do you really think the device you used to post in this thread didn't come from exploited children? It's wrong, of course. That's not the point. The point is where should the blame lie?

It's systemic. Not due to one individual bad actor. So the rules of the system, and it's rule makers, are responsible for the blame.

I'm glad you cleared up for the rest of us that, in your example, everyone and everything except the people actually exploiting children are at fault for children being exploited.
 

Deleted member 8752

User requested account closure
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Oct 26, 2017
10,122
I'm glad you cleared up for the rest of us that, in your example, everyone and everything except the people actually exploiting children are at fault for children being exploited.
They're at fault. But they're also working within a system that incentivizes them to act that way. Many of them would lose their positions for not being exploitative, and someone else would take their place.

Again, this is a systemic issue. And when it comes to tax planning, and not child exploitation, it's a lot less morally wrong to avoid paying taxes when it's legal to do so than it is to exploit child labor.

This is a legislative failing. And, again, when it comes to taxes, you're not a bigger patriot because you decided to pay more. **Everyone should only pay what they're required to pay. The problem is, the laws don't force everyone to pay a fair amount.**
 

Deleted member 8593

User requested account closure
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Oct 26, 2017
27,176
They're at fault. But they're also working within a system that incentivizes them to act that way. Many of them would lose their positions for not being exploitative, and someone else would take their place.

So they're at fault...

You can't blame corporate officers for planning their businesses in the most tax effective fashion when the rules allow for it and their shareholders demand it.

...but you can't blame them...

They're at fault. But they're also working within a system that incentivizes them to act that way. Many of them would lose their positions for not being exploitative, and someone else would take their place.

...but they're also at fault...

You can't blame corporate officers for planning their businesses in the most tax effective fashion when the rules allow for it and their shareholders demand it.

...yet you can't blame them.

tenor.gif


This is literal nonsense, my dude. The entire point of this discussion has revolved around the moral and ethical concerns of avoiding taxes through obvious tax evasion schemes that the industry at large has had a hand in creating in the first place. You cannot divorce one from the other. Even if Activision-Blizzard took no part in lobbying for this, they are responsible for upholding the system by virtue of taking part in it and actively benefitting from it.
 

Deleted member 8752

User requested account closure
Banned
Oct 26, 2017
10,122
So they're at fault...



...but you can't blame them...



...but they're also at fault...



...yet you can't blame them.

tenor.gif


This is literal nonsense, my dude. The entire point of this discussion has revolved around the moral and ethical concerns of avoiding taxes through obvious tax evasion schemes that the industry at large has had a hand in creating in the first place. You cannot divorce one from the other. Even if Activision-Blizzard took no part in lobbying for this, they are responsible for upholding the system by virtue of taking part in it and actively benefitting from it.
The first paragraph you quoted is about child labor exploitation. The second is about taxes and tax planning.

Different subjects with different standards and different moral implications.

"Anyone may arrange his affairs so that his taxes shall be as low as possible; he is not bound to choose that pattern which best pays the treasury. There is not even a patriotic duty to increase one's taxes.
Over and over again the Courts have said that there is nothing sinister in so arranging affairs as to keep taxes as low as possible. Everyone does it, rich and poor alike and all do right, for nobody owes any
public duty to pay more than the law demands." - Judge Learned Hand

Also the subject of discussion isn't tax evasion. Tax evasion is illegal. What we are talking about regarding Activision, however, presumably is legal behavior, and thus not evasion. It's tax effective corporate structuring.
 
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Switch

Banned
Oct 27, 2017
1,021
Wales
No one is saying they're breaking tax laws, and again, how much Jim personally makes continues to have absolutely no relation whatsoever to how much Activision pays.

It does Because I bet like Jim, Activision just pays only pays what it's got too. It's Jim just going on a rant that he knows his followers will love. I like the irony too because, Jim makes money off Youtube and Google have their own issues when it comes to Tax, not that Jim would ever leave Youtube in disgust

I put to you that Activision just does what Sony, Nintendo, MS and most of the games developers and manufacturers do. That's to only pay the tax they have too.
 

Jakisthe

Member
Oct 25, 2017
5,578
It does Because I bet like Jim, Activision just pays only pays what it's got too. It's Jim just going on a rant that he knows his followers will love. I like the irony too because, Jim makes money off Youtube and Google have their own issues when it comes to Tax, not that Jim would ever leave Youtube in disgust

I put to you that Activision just does what Sony, Nintendo, MS and most of the games developers and manufacturers do. That's to only pay the tax they have too.
It doesn't though, because regardless of what he does or does not pay, Acticision still has issues with how much they don't pay.
 

.exe

Member
Oct 25, 2017
22,233
Lobby groups are poison. Sickening and frustrating beyond belief. Really wish the EU Commission would come down hard on both multinationals and the Netherlands.
 

Deleted member 8593

User requested account closure
Banned
Oct 26, 2017
27,176
The first paragraph you quoted is about child labor exploitation. The second is about taxes and tax planning.

Different subjects with different standards and different moral implications.

"Anyone may arrange his affairs so that his taxes shall be as low as possible; he is not bound to choose that pattern which best pays the treasury. There is not even a patriotic duty to increase one's taxes.
Over and over again the Courts have said that there is nothing sinister in so arranging affairs as to keep taxes as low as possible. Everyone does it, rich and poor alike and all do right, for nobody owes any
public duty to pay more than the law demands." - Judge Learned Hand

Also the subject of discussion isn't tax evasion. Tax evasion is illegal. What we are talking about regarding Activision, however, presumably is legal behavior, and thus not evasion. It's tax effective corporate structuring.

You're right, I meant to write tax avoidance, not evasion. The argument still stands though. You're claiming that we cannot blame them for doing this but they are clearly and willingly taking part in a system that disproportionally favours large corporations that do not want to contribute to society through taxes and have done all they can to bend the law in ways that allows them to do so. Of course it isn't illegal when lobbyists can effectively make it legal. But nobody is questioning the legality here and neither did Jim. The discussion has always revolved around their moral and ethical responsibilities and how private, "normal" people can do little to nothing to change it.
 

SuperLLama

Member
Apr 18, 2019
5
Here is activision 2017 Year end financial statement: https://investor.activision.com/static-files/ace1c2fc-c2c8-4461-b9fe-157d7fd1e9c2
Here is the link to the article Jim is referencing: https://itep.org/notadime/

For the year end 31 Dec 2017 they paid: $878 Million in Taxes at a effective rate of 76%

What happened is this:
Business pay income tax on profits, not revenue.
Revenue - expense = profit.
Imagine you have a business. You made $1000 in income in January. But it costs you $800 to make that $1000. You take home $200 at the end of the day. That's your income which should be taxed.

Yes companies like Activision make billions in "revenue" but they also have expenses as well. I find it weird Jim only refers to Revenue and not profits.
Profits was $1.15 billion out of $7 billion. You can make massive revenue but if your profits are tiny your taxes will be tiny.

Okay so we can also see that Activision has a subsidiary overseas where they "parked" some of their profits. In effect delaying when they pay income tax.
In 2017 there was a once-off lower rate of tax on Repatriated earnings of foreign subsidiaries. So Activision made use of this to bring back overseas profit at lower tax rates.

That was in 2017.

Now Jim's article is refers to tax effect of 2018

Here is the link to 2018 quarterly results: https://investor.activision.com/financial-information/quarterly-results
And link to 10-K 2018: https://investor.activision.com/static-files/0f4309eb-c4a5-4bb3-a2b8-d589caf16417

On Page 139 shows that they made pre-tax profits of $1.8
Of which $432 Million was domestic. Presuming US.
Overall current tax was: $34 million while federal tax was -$228 million.
The data set that the article Jim used was referring to this "-$228" of federal tax.

In the 10-K the tax break down shows:
Federal income tax provision at statutory rate: $ 394 21
State taxes, net of federal benefit: 36
Research and development credits: (46)
Foreign rate differential: (198)
Change in tax reserves: 265
Audit settlements: (115)
(Net operating loss tax attribute assumed from the Purchase Transaction ___
Excess tax benefits related to share-based payments: (58)
U.S. Tax Reform Act: (285)
Change in valuation allowance: 61
Other: 10
Income tax expense: $ 64

Main reason for Activision "not" paying US tax is due to U.S tax reform act and foreign rate differential.
Foreign rate differential is rebate for paying tax to foreign governments.
And U.S tax reform act from what I'm reading is due to the remeasurement of deferred US tax on foreign profits to GILTI rates(global intangible low-taxed income). And remeasurement of deferred taxes to new corporate tax rates.

So to anyone, correct me if I'm wrong as I didn't study US tax law but from what I'm seeing:
-Tax on Foreign profit decreased due to US tax reform act and the deferred tax they had on balance decreased therefore They got a massive Tax benefit out of it.
Which led to tax rebate in the 2018 year.
In the end Activision do pay taxes. They just used the tax law to their advantage to gain maximum deduction.

If you read the article Jim refers to, you will see that the companies take advantage of tax credit such as alternative energy tax subsidies. Which is good thing to motivate companies to use renewable energy.

So there is more to dig through but from this I think the conclusion is that:
Is it morally/ethically right to give these companies certain tax credits?
Is it right to give CEO such massive bonuses which is usually in the form of stock options which is also tax deductible?
 

Dlacy13g

Member
Oct 27, 2017
116
California, USA
Blame Trump and the GOP, and their tax cuts which have pushed federal deficits to all-time highs. Here's the report:

https://itep.org/wp-content/uploads...ce-Remains-Rampant-Under-New-Tax-Law_ITEP.pdf

Other companies in the list paying no US federal taxes include Amazon, Chevron, Delta, Halliburton, Honeywell, IBM, Netflix, and many more.

I often hear about evil Activision laying off people despite record revenue etc., but I rarely see it mentioned that this years numbers will be far below last years, or that Blizzard's revenue this year is going to be a multi-year low.
Stop the political nonsense ....this has been happening well before this administration. The US core business tax laws needs changing end of story. Its been happening under Obhama, Bush, Clinton and others so ditch the agenda.