Jim Sterling criticizes Microsoft's role in normalizing microtransactions (see staff post)

[oni-link]

If Microsoft is responsible for all things terrible in gaming, including Microtransactions or online subs, and the reason is because they were the first mover, where does that leave the real first movers in that space? Which were the MMOs of the time.

They charge for MP now but what I'm asking is why they are getting shit now for being the first mover when they weren't.

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Well my first post in this thread was also critical of the video for this reason, as while MS have been the worst of the big 3, the 3rd party publishers have been orders of magnitude worse

People paid for MMOs knowing upfront what they were paying for. The games needed funding from subs to keep them running and to keep new content being rolled out

It's not the same as ripping out all online play and then selling it back to you. Sony sell online play and shut servers down after only a few years (Gravity Rush 2/Driveclub) which is shitty as well

None of the console makers have a great record, but MS have been bolder with trying new shitty things (paid online, which worked, and the OG XB1 plan, which didn't)

 

[ElBoxy]

Yes. "I will not put any MTX in the game you want to buy".

The generously priced subsricption won't be priced as genrously once new subs will slow down. As soon that happens they will start charging more from people who have been invested in the ecosystem for years. Whe've seen this song and dance often enough now.

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MS has multiple AAA MP franchises. All of them are expensive to make and get supported for at least 2 years. I can't envision a possibility where they have a MP game with no MTX.

 

[headspawn]

If Microsoft is responsible for all things terrible in gaming, including Microtransactions or online subs, and the reason is because they were the first mover, where does that leave the real first movers in that space? Which were the MMOs of the time.

They charge for MP now but what I'm asking is why they are getting shit now for being the first mover when they weren't. You're off talking about today and I'm taking about years ago.

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The funny part that bares repeating is that MS wasn't even the first to charge for a console online service.

They just somehow managed to popularize it in the face of one of being absolutely dwarfed by the PS2 at the time.

 

[BioDigital Jazzman]

I'm just gonna step back from this one because it looks like I was cosigning the idea that they're comparable in character as well and on some other levels and that definitely wasn't my intention and it's probably the worst person to be compared to so misstep on my part.

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I got what you meant. Not sure why everybody is being obtuse. Jim is moving the goalposts to fit his specific argument. In a debate, the opposition would be able to challenge his views and show that , no that isn't correct. But this isn't a debate. It's a click bait YouTube video meant to attract views.

You aren't saying he's like Ben Shapiro, you are saying he's also using bad faith arguments to make his point. It's not that hard but people don't want to understand

 

[Bastables]

I edited my post regarding Microsoft's indie game push. Their efforts with XNA and XBLA on the 360 was a huge part why indie games became mainstream on consoles last gen. To try to diminish that fact is frankly quite ridiculous.

Microtransactions are microtransactions. A lot of people have issues with f2p games as well. And if you want to separate arcade microtransactions from modern microtransactions, then one could argue that there are differences between 90s indie games and 2000s indie games as well.

Please note: I'm not literally saying that the arcades are why we have microtransactions today. I'm simply saying that it follows the same train of thought as "we had indie games in the 90s so there".

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You can conflate coin operated games/pinball as microtrasactions but that does not make it true.

Indie games of small teams did exist in the 80s and 90s, the indie community was such they were referring to indie game jams prior to Ms involvement in the 360era.

Wikipedia notably does not conflate coin operated games as micro transactions https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Microtransaction

But does note that indie (independent) games existed in the 80s that belie your erroneous "train of thought". https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Microtransaction

 

[Theorry]

Well he did like gears 5 so he has to counteract that somehow!

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Looking at the comments of his Gears 5 video they were quite mad he liked it. Gotta win them back and show them his is still on their side before losing subs. ;)

 

[Crayon]

Everybody gets their turn on jimquisition.

 

[watdaeff4]

Looking at the comments of his Gears 5 video they were quite mad he liked it. Gotta win them back and show them his is still on their side before losing subs. ;)

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If that is the reason behind this video (not saying it is), that is absolutely pathetic

 

[BigHatPaul]

Microtransactions are fucking terrible. Didn't buy into MK11 because I'd heard how bad it was about it, which apparently has gotten better, but I'm still going to wait for a GOTY edition. Are the skins that were released for the previous seasons gone forever if you didn't play them? Really like the Time themed ones (the white and blue).

 

[Gundam]

Microtransactions are fucking terrible. Didn't buy into MK11 because I'd heard how bad it was about it, which apparently has gotten better, but I'm still going to wait for a GOTY edition. Are the skins that were released for the previous seasons gone forever if you didn't play them? Really like the Time themed ones (the white and blue).

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It wasn't really about MTX, more the progression was miserable.

 

[Papacheeks]

Yet they added them after 18 months. Like last week. Talking about recent.
SoD2 doesnt have MTX, Crackdown doesnt have it also. So no not every first party release has it.

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Just the ones that are super popular, and part of franchises.

 

[Theorry]

Just the ones that are super popular, and part of franchises.

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That smells like being selective to make a argument tho.

 

[LooneyLMD]

Well, they did start paying to play online and i remember when l4d had free dlc on pc ms made them charge $7 because fuck you, give us money.

 

[DocH1X1]

Well he did like gears 5 so he has to counteract that somehow!

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Fair point lol

 

[Andokuky]

I just don't get how he arrives at the opinion that MS, more than the other two, was enabling or normalizing MTX with the Xbox One.

1. Nintendo already had Amiibos on WiiU before many of the Xbone games he rants about were even out.

2. Both the PS4 and Xbone launch windows were loaded with third party games that had MTX. Even at launch you had Ass Creed, Madden, FIFA, NBA, Need for Speed, among others. Plus first party titles from both companies. This imho is the biggest flaw in his argument, he ignores that Sony games like Killzone, MLB, Last of Us, and GT6 had them. And these were much bigger games than Ryse of fucking Lococycle.

The MTX train was coming regardless. To blame any of the big three over the other is nonsense.

 

[Deleted member 29599]

I have had differing views on Jim Sterling's videos, some I have agreed with, some i have not. It's clear that he chooses to deliberately pursue topics and create his videos in a way that is highly incendiary, makes for better views apparently. But this is such a hyperbolic extreme that I have lost all respect and interest in anything he does ever again. The entire conceit of the video is so laughably off base it's not even worth any kind of credible discussion and frankly this thread should have remained locked. Anyone who has even the slightest sense of objectivity and a general knowledge of the recent industry trends of this gen knows exactly who started and popularised these current gaming practices (spoiler alert: it isn't Microsoft).

This is fanboy baiting nonsense and should be treated with the indifference it deserves.

 

[Boots The God]

And lets be real they have demonstrated time and time again a lack of desire to put out major (good) first party games. Never understood why people would willingly choose to limit their potential library by choosing a system with so little quality exclusive titles

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Ohhhh idk maybe bc they like the exclusives they do put out 🤦🏾‍♂️

 

[pikachief]

So did Microsoft, Activision-Blizzard, Overwatch, or EA normalize this stuff? I feel like Jim Sterling likes to put this same blame on whoever he feels criticizing to give his arguments more weight. How can any of the games microsoft have made normalize this when their only(arguably) big hit this entire gen doesn't have loot boxes? When it comes to lootboxes at least, microsoft is certainly the one playing follow the leader and he knows it.

I used to love his videos but he lost me with his constant sky is falling, blame-shifting, click baiting, nonsense meant to get people riled up about whatever is in the current news.

 

[nekkid]

Well, they did start paying to play online and i remember when l4d had free dlc on pc ms made them charge $7 because fuck you, give us money.

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No they didn't.

 

[Boots The God]

I have had differing views on Jim Sterling's videos, some I have agreed with, some i have not. It's clear that he chooses to deliberately pursue topics and create his videos in a way that is highly incendiary, makes for better views apparently. But this is such a hyperbolic extreme that I have lost all respect and interest in anything he does ever again. The entire conceit of the video is so laughably off base it's not even worth any kind of credible discussion and frankly this thread should have remained locked. Anyone who has even the slightest sense of objectivity and a general knowledge of the recent industry trends of this gen knows exactly who started and popularised these current gaming practices (spoiler alert: it isn't Microsoft).

This is fanboy baiting nonsense and should be treated with the indifference it deserves.

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Agreed. The only response he was counting on was the anti-MS groups. Won't call em haters, but you know what I mean. Idk how people can be so hung up wanting to not like a company lol. Are they perfect, no but no one is. As long as they keep making the best shooters, best racer, best controller, better netcode, services like game pass, and continue to have the other 99% of games that are available on all platforms 😂 I'll rock with em. I mean it's not like I can't own multiple platforms

 

[Papacheeks]

That smells like being selective to make a argument tho.

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It's really not. How popular are games like crackdown , sea of thieves, state of decay compared to juggernaughts like Halo, Forza, gears, even can put killer instinct in there back when it was really popular.

All of those have MT's built into the eco system of the game. Same thing goes for some of Sony's biggest that have online components. MLB, uncharted, gran turismo.

 

[Theorry]

It's really not. How popular are games like crackdown , sea of thieves, state of decay compared to juggernaughts like Halo, Forza, gears, even can put killer instinct in there back when it was really popular.

All of those have MT's built into the eco system of the game. Same thing goes for some of Sony's biggest that have online components. MLB, uncharted, gran turismo.

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The person said all recent games from MS have MTX i call out wich dont and suddenly those dont count because they are not "big" or what that means. Thats imo selective.

 

[watdaeff4]

Just the ones that are super popular, and part of franchises.

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I don't disagree with what you are saying but Theorry was just pointing out that not all MS Studio games have MTX (which the poster he was responding to stated as such)

But yeah IMO I see the same trend you note

 

[headspawn]

nvm.

 

[J 0 E]

Microsoft had it's share of exploitive practices and Nintendo too with locking content behind Amiibos and mobile games MTX

Unfortunately the situation will get worse on next gen even if they raised the game prices.

 

[Asriel]

It's really not. How popular are games like crackdown , sea of thieves, state of decay compared to juggernaughts like Halo, Forza, gears, even can put killer instinct in there back when it was really popular.

All of those have MT's built into the eco system of the game. Same thing goes for some of Sony's biggest that have online components. MLB, uncharted, gran turismo.

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How is it not selective when the video is focused entirely on Microsoft?

 

[Fawz]

I don't think Sony and Nintendo are that far off, but yeah it's super disappointing how nearly all recent AAA 1st party MS titles have had loads of in-game monetization (and even more non-game related cross promotion). The sad thing is I only see them doubling down further with the rise of GamePass and the upcoming XCloud streaming.

 

[Papacheeks]

How is it not selective when the video is focused entirely on Microsoft?

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They are the ones going all in on service based games the most. On top of caring more about their services. With also them being the ones that wanted a lot of this with their early take on game sharing/DRM approach from start of this gen.

Now that digital has eased it's way in being almost more prominent than physical their that much closer to their original plan. Only it's a lot more easier to digest than it was in the beginning of this gen because we've gotten used to service based games, and digital.

 

[Andokuky]

I don't think Sony and Nintendo are that far off, but yeah it's super disappointing how nearly all recent AAA 1st party MS titles have had loads of in-game monetization (and even more non-game related cross promotion). The sad thing is I only see them doubling down further with the rise of GamePass and the upcoming XCloud streaming.

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What MS games recently other than Gears 5 have "loads" of in game monetization? I can't think of any, unless were are counting normal DLC and expansions as in game monetization.

And I don't even know if Gears 5 has "loads" of it, have barely touched the MP.

 

[Fawz]

What MS games recently other than Gears 5 have "loads" of in game monetization? I can't think of any, unless were are counting normal DLC and expansions as in game monetization.

And I don't even know if Gears 5 has "loads" of it, have barely touched the MP.

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Both Gears 4 and 5 have loads of monetization where on day 1 you can spend more than the Premium Edition's worth and still not have everything they're selling, let alone what they sell throughout the game's life-span. Gears Pop obviously is loaded as well, and there they're fine with still doing lootboxes.

The Forza games have had their fair share of monetization as well.

Sea of Thieves just launched their microtransactions and its currency packs that let you buy emotes, clothes, pets and ship cosmetics.

Not all MS 1st party games have monetization, but most that are big budget do and some of them lock the content behind a paywall.

 

[Kilgore]

Both Gears 4 and 5 have loads of monetization where on day 1 you can spend more than the Premium Edition's worth and still not have everything they're selling, let alone what they sell throughout the game's life-span. Gears Pop obviously is loaded as well, and there they're fine with still doing lootboxes.

The Forza games have had their fair share of monetization as well.

Sea of Thieves just launched their microtransactions and its currency packs that let you buy emotes, clothes, pets and ship cosmetics.

Not all MS 1st party games have monetization, but most that are big budget do and some of them lock the content behind a paywall.

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But you said "nearly all", is not nearly all, not even most of the Xbox exclusives have mtx.

Crackdown 3 didn't have mtx, nor SoD2, or Ori, or Cuphead, neither do have QB and Recore. SoT spent year and a half without any kind of mtx and you still can earn it's currency playing (and quite easily).

The point of criticizing MTX is because games are designed around them (that's why they're bad), and plenty of Microsoft games are not designed around any kind of MTX.

 

[Fawz]

But you said "nearly all", is not nearly all, not even most of the Xbox exclusives have mtx.

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Except you're missing crucial context, I said "nearly all recent AAA 1st party MS titles". The point is the monitization on full priced first party titles that have even more expensive ultimate editions, not the lower price point games. All the same you can disagree and that's fine, but from my experience with their big budget fully priced first party games in the last few years there's been an alarming level of monitization.

If to you their other games that don't have this monitization reduce the concern, and that when this moniziation is introduced it's not that bad then that's your perogative.

 

[Prine]

Unbelievable, the MTX in FH4, Gears 5, Halo, SoT isn't obtrusive, its invisible to me, what a ridiculous statement, to put them even near EA is a pisstake.

 

[Andokuky]

Both Gears 4 and 5 have loads of monetization where on day 1 you can spend more than the Premium Edition's worth and still not have everything they're selling, let alone what they sell throughout the game's life-span. Gears Pop obviously is loaded as well, and there they're fine with still doing lootboxes.

The Forza games have had their fair share of monetization as well.

Sea of Thieves just launched their microtransactions and its currency packs that let you buy emotes, clothes, pets and ship cosmetics.

Not all MS 1st party games have monetization, but most that are big budget do and some of them lock the content behind a paywall.

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Never got into Gears 4 but I heard it was bad with monetization. But I guess we just have differing opinions on recent, because Gears 4 was three years ago. MS has done a much better job lately with monetization in their games. They removed it from Forza 7. Horizon 4 has none. State of Decay has none. Crackdown has none.

Gears 5 has monetization but afaik the shit you can buy is stuff you cannot unlock by playing. So it's premium only content and not random. Something I will never spend a penny on, but it at least doesn't affect the economy for people not interested in spending real money, since stuff you buy with premium currency is unavailable otherwise. But maybe I have that wrong.

Either way I disagree that most or all of their recent games have a lot of monetization. A couple of their recent ones do. Others don't.

 

[Rodelero]

Unbelievable, the MTX in FH4, Gears 5, Halo, SoT isn't obtrusive, its invisible to me, what a ridiculous statement, to put them even near EA is a pisstake.

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Halo 5's is pretty exactly in the same ballpark as what you get in an EA Sports game to be honest.

 

[cakely]

I don't know why Microsoft, or any console manufacturer, gets flack for charging for online services when MMOs were charging for service prior to Xbox Live.

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/facepalm

Everquest, WoW and most other MMOs provide dedicated servers, tech support, and CSRsall to support the players that are playing their game. They do this by either charging a subscription fee, or subsidizing their game with MTX.

Xbox Live Gold, PS+ and Nintendo Online simply took the formerly free ability to play online games, usually peer-to-peer, and stuck it behind a paywall. They brought almost nothing to the table to justify it, with the possible exception of voice chat.

They are not the same thing, at all, in any way.

 

[blitzblake]

Just finished the gears 5 campaign and I wasn't even aware it had mtx..

 

[SPDIF]

Xbox Live Gold, PS+ and Nintendo Online simply took the formerly free ability to play online games, usually peer-to-peer, and stuck it behind a paywall. They brought almost nothing to the table to justify it, with the possible exception of voice chat.

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Well in the case of XBLG if you just take everything on its own -- voice chat, text chat, online play -- it's easy to say it brought nothing new to the table. But the whole idea of bringing all of those together under one service and combining it with a single account system that let you play any online game with the same username, same friends list, same messages etc... was definitely something (dare I say revolutionary?) at the time. Add in the fact that it was incredibly seamless and easy to use and brand new to a lot of people -- especially console only players and people who were only just getting access to broadband at the time -- and I think it's fair to say it definitely brought something new to the table.

Now despite what it might seem like, I'm not trying to argue that we should be paying to play online. Especially not nowadays when something like Steam does pretty much everything XBLG does and for free. I just don't agree with that particular point.

 

[Ohri-Jin]

Well in the case of XBLG if you just take everything on its own -- voice chat, text chat, online play -- it's easy to say it brought nothing new to the table. But the whole idea of bringing all of those together under one service and combining it with a single account system that let you play any online game with the same username, same friends list, same messages etc... was definitely something (dare I say revolutionary?) at the time. Add in the fact that it was incredibly seamless and easy to use and brand new to a lot of people -- especially console only players and people who were only just getting access to broadband at the time -- and I think it's fair to say it definitely brought something new to the table.

Now despite what it might seem like, I'm not trying to argue that we should be paying to play online. Especially not nowadays when something like Steam does pretty much everything XBLG does and for free. I just don't agree with that particular point.

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Revolutionary? Lol Playstation did all that minus party chat and for FREE.

Those were the good old days.

 

[Cranster]

Revolutionary? Lol Playstation did all that minus party chat and for FREE.

Those were the good old days.

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Are you talking about PS2 or PS3? Because it didn't do all of that until after Xbox Live with the PS3 and the PSN service was vastly inferior until this generation.

 

[SparkleMotion]

Are you talking about PS2 or PS3? Because it didn't do all of that until after Xbox Live with the PS3 and the PSN service was vastly inferior until this generation.

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I'll take vastly inferior for vastly no money.

 

[SparkleMotion]

What MS games recently other than Gears 5 have "loads" of in game monetization? I can't think of any, unless were are counting normal DLC and expansions as in game monetization.

And I don't even know if Gears 5 has "loads" of it, have barely touched the MP.

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Shhhhh, Jim Sterling needs something to bitch about for clicks.

 

[Cranster]

I'll take vastly inferior for vastly no money.

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Still negates your point though. Also, I'll take a superior service with an inexpensive fee that will also not play games with my personal info.

 

[Ohri-Jin]

Are you talking about PS2 or PS3? Because it didn't do all of that until after Xbox Live with the PS3 and the PSN service was vastly inferior until this generation.

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So someone starts something and asks for a fee for a service which was unprecedented while being one of the richest companies in this world and somehow it's revolutionary?

Competition pursues but minus the Fee. Now I wouldn't say that is revolutionary either, but sure as hell SWEET.

Of course it was "vastly inferior". It was FREE. Lmao.

lol Jim could have made a damn video about that instead. How Microsoft loves to put everything behind a pay wall. At one point yall couldn't even Netflix without gold. Free 2 Play games without gold. Etc. Etc.

 

[Cranster]

So someone starts something and asks for a fee for a service which was unprecedented while being one of the richest companies in this world and somehow it's revolutionary?

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Fee or no fee xbox live was revolutionary especially with what Bungie implemented in Halo 2.

 

[SPDIF]

Revolutionary? Lol Playstation did all that minus party chat and for FREE.

Those were the good old days.

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I thought it was pretty obvious I was talking about the original Xbox Live service on the original Xbox. So no, PS absolutely did not do all of that.

And in either case, did PS offer a similar service before or at the same time as Xbox Live? No, they did it years (or in some cases an entire generation) afterwards. So how does that do anything to prove that XBLG wasn't revolutionary at the time?

 

[AmFreak]

Fee or no fee xbox live was revolutionary especially with what Bungie implemented in Halo 2.

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Hardly revolutionary when all this was already done on PC.

 

[Deleted member 43084]

Hardly revolutionary when all this was already done on PC.

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Consoles were quite a bit different than PCs back then. It was unprecedented.

 

[freeradical]

Interesting video that raises some valid ponts. Not sure he needed to have a dig at Sea of Theives though. That felt somewhat "immature". If you never check out a title, then why comment?

 

[William_Herschel]

Spot on. But undoubtedly the people responding to this thread will continue to perpetuate the myth that Microtransactions are needed for development or "games as service" without presenting any financial data to actually back those assertions.