I defended video games during the whole Jack Thompson thing and GTA hot coffee shit. I'm done defending this shit. It's become a cesspool filled with complacency and no substance. Whatever comes the industry deserves it for acting like fuckwits.
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Jim Sterling Video - Valve Endorses AIDS Simulator
- Thread starter Chairmanchuck (另一个我)
- Start date
Jim Sterling is basically endorsing it himself. Giving it more publicity. Honestly seen the gameplay and its not even that bad. What is the difference of selling this game and gta? Just because this has a messed up story about soneone having aids and etc and kills people...
Majority of games have npcs killing each other though?
Majority of games have npcs killing each other though?
Your argument makes no sense at all and eshop doesn't have even 1/10th of the good games/competition the Steam store has.
You are right, I shouldn't be so passive aggressive. I apologize. I'm just worn out by this topic, I guess.
I tell myself to stay out of these arguments, but I get suckered in every time. I just get tired of seeing people "correct" people's opinions about Steam. I LOVED Steam. I've bought hundreds of games from the service. Durante was like a hero, and JaseC was like a beloved mascot and then somewhere along the lines something changed. I couldn't quite put my finger on it at first, but at a certain point I realized I just didn't like using it any more. When I would see others voice a similar opinion, I would join in hoping that joining my voice with others who felt similarly that we could spur some change. However, instead all I've gotten are people telling me that my opinions are wrong, that actually everything is actually TOO good and so many petty arguments where people would go to absurd lengths to try to prove their point ("MINE LOOKS FINE, TAKE A SCREENSHOT OF HOW YOU GOT THERE!").
I do sincerely enjoy seeing BernandoOne popping up in every single one of these threads like some sort of Steam end-boss that is summoned when speak the words "curation" three times. I actually have learned a lot from the other side of the table by listening to a lot of his arguments. However, I just feel that if people feel negatively about something, trying to debate that negativity away isn't going to accomplish anything. I see a lot of debating about why opinions are wrong but very little in the way of solutions for why people feel negatively in the first place.
I'm not saying that Steam is the only topic that gets this treatment, but there is something about it that brings out this behavior more than others. I love you all and I miss loving Steam.
Literally as I was typing this up, too perfect.
I guess Valve endorses white supremacy because it festers on tons of their community forums and they give it more publicity.
If you ignore context then you can justify anything seemingly.
Okay, please break down what you actually meant to say, because you did in fact say exactly that:
"What is the tangible harm a product like aids simulator causes?"
"School shootings!"
Do the people whining about this have any factual data to support their arguments?
People on masse are being exposed to this?
I suggest everybody in this thread posts the first page(s) on the steam storefront.
Or the list of games that comes up when they search for a particular genre.
Google generally found that people generally abandon a search when they don't find interesting results after the first page. What are the search terms that expose trash on the first page? And how do people not looking for it get exposed to it?
People on masse are being exposed to this?
I suggest everybody in this thread posts the first page(s) on the steam storefront.
Or the list of games that comes up when they search for a particular genre.
Google generally found that people generally abandon a search when they don't find interesting results after the first page. What are the search terms that expose trash on the first page? And how do people not looking for it get exposed to it?
After watching that video, I'm not really sure if I am offended by Aids Simulator as a game. If Jim was showing the right footage, the game just looks like another predictable Unity asset flip first person shooter with a controversial title used to grab peoples attention. Which worked, given that Jim Sterling is talking about it. By the sounds of it, this game is just one title change away from falling into complete obscurity.
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I think its more because people are saying that Steam has a lot of trash (which it does, no arguing about that), but then people say they cant find good games, because games like "Aids Simulator" or "Suicide Simulator" are on Steam and good games are the needle in a heystack, which isnt really true.
People often post their frontpages in these topics and no where you can see those games. The biggest factor in Steams algorythms is the review system mixed with popularity, so you usually see well rated games or popular games and a mix of both. Out of the weekly sales, you see 4 well rated Metroidvanias on sale.
You are seeing games your friends recommended.
You can see a curator if you followed one.
My opinion on that whole topic is: Valve should do a minimum curation to weed out asset flips like the featured one.
Do you?
Did Jim make this argument in the video? It's not ringing a bell.
I believe this was done earlier.
I'm sorry I don't understand what this has to do with Valve's responsiblity in this case.
It's really easy if you don't take everyone's argument in bad faith to see what I was talking about. But enjoy some condescension: the poster used the word 'like' which indicates a comparison. We're talking about bad games on Steam. One of the bad games on Steam was a game called School Shooter (not sure of the exact name). I hope you can draw the connection from there.
You're convinently ignoring the data that has already been posted in the thread.
The examples I've seen only prove my point.
No, but people in this thread are.
I dont think most people say steam it is too good but rather that you guys are missing the forest due to a single tree. You not liking Steam is OK, but you should also try other platforms and see that the number of good games available is only a fraction and that every few years there is a reset that creates a vacuum for games to be succesful for a while (which we had with PS4 and Xbone launch and now we have with the Switch). That wont happen in Steam and it is "good" for the user but bad for developers who will always have an ever increasing competition.
You can also see the other side which also has to fight misinformation all the time. There is a reason why we ended up here. First it was that steam only picked winners and that it harmed the indie scene having a closed curation. Once they changed to greenlight it was an issue because greenlight sucked and it was a popularity contest (greenligh sucked). Now the issue is that we want curation but only of those titles we dont like. Again, even if there was a total curation and only gammes someone would recommend were launched on steam, it would still mean more than 50 per month.... too many for everyone to actually notice them and have a niche for a month just for themselves.
Steam is the main topic in this forum that gets this treatment though. And the reason why you always see the same people defending the same points is because the majority of us are already tired of discussing the same points over and over again over the same issues while people do not listen to us. And that happens in most pc / steam threads so.. .yeah
If you're not sure, then it's probably because you didn't read this:
AIDS Simulator store description said:
https://store.steampowered.com/app/875280/?snr=1_5_9__205
Does this data somehow justify the existence of these horrible games? I'm pretty sure if the data indicates that no one is interested and plays them that there's no reason for them to exist.
Sorry, how the fuck is taking exactly what you said "bad faith", other than you now realise your statement was fucking stupid?
You are making a claim that videogames cause school shootings. Specifically a title that was never even released.
Which is literally the claim made by Jack Thompson.
And falls short of any form of critical thinking pass, based on the fact that videogames are a global entertainment pastime, and regular school shootings are a uniquely American phenomenon.
So do you stand by the claim that "bad games on steam" are a cause of real world violence?
No, there is definitely an audience, as there is for everything, it is small however. Honestly I have no objection to valve removing that stuff. But I also find hiding that stuff away out of sight of most people perfectly fine too.
Why do we need to justify their existence to begin with? If nobody is seeing or playing them then they aren't really doing any damage.
I'd rather some shit lay around never to be seen than potentially decent games being blocked from curation.
Believe me, I understand that sentiment. I mentioned BernandoOne, and I truly am mentioning that zeal in an endearing way. I get that in this age of misinformation you guys are fighting the good fight. I just think that saying "I interacted with Steam in x manner and encountered too many junk games" (which is basically the argument distilled down into the most basic form) is a subjective opinion. It is subjective in that each user interacts with Steam in a different way and has different expectations about what they should see and what qualifies as a "junk" game. If the misinformation you are fighting is "Games don't sell well on Steam because there is too much junk" than sure, I can totally see your arguments. However, I think that is just parroted by people who actually have had a negative experience due to junk games and it just gets globbed together.
I have more to say but I have to go to work now. I think that we have more common ground on these issues then we think.
My statement was not stupid.
One of the main causes school shootings is the radicalization of young men. Radicalization occurs in places like Steam communities, reddit subs, 4chan, and other message boards that concentrate on edgelord memes like AIDS Simulator, School Shooter, etc.
I don't agree with any Jack Thompson has ever said. You don't know what the word literally means.
Only because of the gun laws here. Radicalization continues in every part of the world. Thankfully gun laws are better almost everywhere else.
This is what I'm talking about with bad faith argument. You jumped on something that you (and coincidentally I) vehemently disagree with and already concluded it was what I was going to say.
Honestly you're not worth responding to any further. You've made your point. I've made mine. Your point is that Valve has no responsibility to actually curate their store. I think that opinion is shameful and wrong.
We are in a thread where Jim is (again) talking how trash games such as this one are harmful and that is the reason why good games underperform in Steam. So.... yeah kinda what everyone here is trying to make poeple realize it is not the problem?
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Jim did read off the story in his video, I was aware of that. As the developer said on their Steam page "- Zero effort cash grab" , look at the game they slapped together in whatever engine they made it in. They could have slapped on any story they wanted and it would not have made a difference. This is just a case of another person with a limited skillset at making games, using a topic that is intentionally implemented to trigger people and garnish attention to make a few bucks. They could release the same broken looking demo two weeks from now under the name Hong Kong 2019, and make the game about slaughtering people from the Chinese mainland. I would still give the same reaction.
I can roleplay in GTAV in way more terrible ways than in any of those games.
AIDS Simulator, School Shooter are memes because sites like Jim Sterling or Kotatu make articles about how those games are the worst thing in society. Do you think those developer are expecting a 9/10 from IGN? Or a Game Award nomination? No... more blatantly racist ,sexist, lazy, controvercial the game is, more articles about how bad the game is you will get. That's create the meme
"Look at the image with graphs showing more devs care about competition from high quality games!"
Sure, 9% more devs worry about HIGH quality competition, but that doesn't mean we should discount the 43% that are also threatened by LOW quality games. Is it too hard to admit that maybe the amount of shovelware actually is a problem? Sure, it may not be the biggest problem, but that doesn't mean it should be ignored.
Sure, 9% more devs worry about HIGH quality competition, but that doesn't mean we should discount the 43% that are also threatened by LOW quality games. Is it too hard to admit that maybe the amount of shovelware actually is a problem? Sure, it may not be the biggest problem, but that doesn't mean it should be ignored.
I get that it's en vogue to blame the media but there's a solution. The media can't report on something that doesn't exist. Why do these games have to? I really am struggling. The only argument I've seen made by some people is a slippery slope argument. But common sense should prevail here.
Would you give the same reaction if the game was about child pornography?
I'd like to see at the very least the front storepage be curated by Valve and their employees, with the option for users to swap between that front page with another for an automated and curator influenced storefront.
I think with this, there would be a base level of quality control and it would be more difficult for people to see unwanted content.
I think with this, there would be a base level of quality control and it would be more difficult for people to see unwanted content.
Boy, a line-by-line refutation. I haven't seen (or done) one of those in awhile. I prefer to address the entire gist of someone's post. One reason is that when you make a line-by-line post, it invites a line-by-line response which often devolves into quibbling back-and-forth, round-and-round argument without driving towards a larger point. So I'm going to ignore a lot of what you posted to instead focus on a reiteration of my thoughts, as I don't think you've read me correctly.
Yes, Valve does moderate offensive products. The most recent example is the school shooting simulator. They've stated they'll continue to do so. There's nothing to argue there. The only point worth discussing is how much they do this. Most people would probably agree Valve could invest more in their customer service, from scrubbing products like school shooter, to cleaning out offensive user groups, and some light forum moderation.
To the more political point: a more hands-off, open platform is not the same as libertarianism. I'm not making a libertarian argument. Nor do I believe Steam is some paragon of libertarian ideology, as you seem to when you equate Gabe Newell with Rand Paul. You made a lot of inflammatory, combative statements that I'm going to ignore because I don't think we're on the same page in this regard.
I'm commenting on software, technical decisions, and software design. I was a software engineer for many years and have a master's in software engineering. That is my concern, not grinding an political axe. In this regard, specifically in terms of software engineering, I like Valve's less draconian approach to who can and who SHOULD be able to publish on Steam: namely that is everyone.
In fact I think their approach is laudable for the same reasons the world wide web is, for the same reason Linux is: information should be free, access should be free, we should all be able to participate in the creation of content. That's an idea as old as computing.
Does erring on the side of openness require having to deal with bullshit like School Shooter? Yeah, there are idiots out there who would use open platforms to do idiotic things. However the community deals with that by reporting on it, through Steam's tools, on forums like this, through media coverage.
And to your implied point that children should be protected from what they see on Steam, there are parental controls on the platform:
https://support.steampowered.com/kb_article.php?ref=5149-EOPC-9918
https://www.howtogeek.com/179559/ho...s-aka-parental-controls-in-your-steam-client/
This isn't "whataboutism", by which I assume you're implying I've made a "tu quoque" fallacy. The purpose of a tu quoque fallacy would be to excuse Valve's behavior because other people do it too.
Instead I am clearly criticizing the idea of curation in general. People throw the term around because it sounds fancy and nice but in reality every major storefront is really just pushing product from major corporations, sprinkled over with a few critical hits.
People blamed edgelord memes from school shootings. The media is highly responsible for that:
>A meme (/miːm/ MEEM) is an idea, behavior, or style that spreads from person to person within a culture
The media is also responsible for not focusing in good games instead.
That's a felony, punished by law. The only difference between AIDS simulator and GTA5 is that in one you were told what are the motivations of the main character to do what he do. In the other one, you are free to shoot and mass murder anybody.
"But common sense should prevail here."
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What appears on the frontpage is curated. The Midweek/Weekly/Weekend sales are curated and they only show a few well reviewed games on sale, handpicked.
If you log out, you also wont see stuff like Aids Simulator on the frontpage, since it will only show well reviewed games and recommended games.
For curators Valve handpicked some popular ones that are shown when you first use Steam or if you are logged out like Gamestar or Gronkh, depending on the region.
Yeah he is pretty much the tabloid of YouTube now. It's not as thought provoking as it is clickbait headlines.
So Like how it is right now?
I think everyone needs a quick reminder of what the store front has currently.
Please show me where the supposed "Trash" is, Because All I see are perfectly fine games to purchase & play.
Unless you are ACTIVELY searching for garbage, You won't get garbage.
In this case, yes I would. The point I am trying to make here is that this is a generic asset-flip. The developer of the game admits that too. Aids Simulator is a template first person shooter that has almost nothing to do with the title of the game. The developers spent more time thinking up the paragraph of text used to trigger people than they did actually designing a real game. They could release this under the name "child porn simulator" and I would still have the same reaction, yes.
If Valve started allowing games that actually depicted child pornography, I would feel quite differently about that. In this case, all these "devs" are doing is slapping controversial titles and descriptions on random junk that they put together in Unity.
TB (RIP) did a nice segment showing indie games:
Sadly he couldn't continue with that for health issues.
Sadly he couldn't continue with that for health issues.
I'm with Valve on this one. Once you have "curation", that's a slippery slope to censorship, favoritism, etc. I'd rather have an imperfect system than have some anonymous Valve employee select which games I should see in my feed.
Competition is good.
And Jim, you're approaching peak #FAKENEWS with that title - and you're part of the problem.
Competition is good.
And Jim, you're approaching peak #FAKENEWS with that title - and you're part of the problem.
But then others will complain how do you allow games like this where the main character launches nukes and kills millions according to how fast you press the button. This is a renake of a 90s Amiga game btw
https://store.steampowered.com/app/544220/Damage_Sadistic_Butchering_of_Humanity/
Isn't it funny that you rely on Valve to control what you can buy or not in an open platform anyway? If anyone can publish anything made anyway, why would people need Steam? Just to process payments? GOG is a good example, and I wish there were more smaller platforms instead of just a big one like Steam. This whole overload of lazy games would not be a problem if there was actual competition between storefronts.
Oh well.
That's the worst title for a YouTube video I've ever seen. Jim Sterling reaching national enquirer levels.
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Then maybe the competitors could at least try to be good competitors. I would love to use a client that can give me the same features Steam can...
Steam has lots of great features people use extensively.
Maybe the other store fronts should step it up with better quality features that make people want to use them for reasons other than 'well I guess this one exclusive game I want is stuck on it'.
There are.. https://itch.io/ self-proclaimed as the bastion of quality and moral control so there is that.. you should know it if the media use their resources to show this instead of promoting shitty games.
https://twitter.com/moonscript/status/1004451377165172736
Honestly I will move in a blink to a platform that support "shutdown after all downloads are complete"...
we should have a free trade marketplace where you can exchange handmade games for bread and cheese, there would be no censorship there
This is mostly true, though the recommendations through tags often leaves a lot to be desired.
Valve uses the Apple tactic so I doubt they let people get around giving them the cut as that's 90% of their business plan
The idea of taking responsibility for anything that happens under their watch scares most tech companies shitless for whatever reason.