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Sykdom

Banned
Feb 12, 2019
993
California
User Banned (5 Days): Repeated hostility and inappropriate language across multiple topics
what in the world are you talking about?
You can go fuck yourself I've left my blood on the street of Sacramento and San Francisco many times defending these ideals. People are pissed that they are signing away out rights. What are you some Gen X tough guy? Lest we all forget how gen X handled the aids epidemic.
 

Deleted member 4346

User requested account closure
Banned
Oct 25, 2017
8,976
We are fucked as a country, Trump has a great shot at getting re-elected. This thread reminds me why.

The country is fucked because the Democratic establishment, long-time party leaders and major liberal donors, don't see Trump for what he is- he's a symptom rather than the disease. Symptom of decades of increasing wealth inequality, globalization, automation, and the tax burden increased on the middle class while the social safety net and infrastructure crumbled. Decades of both Republicans and yes, Democrats, running on dog-whistle racism, xenophobia, sexism, homophobia, and transphobia.

Nominating Biden is a refusal to acknowledge the conditions that birthed Trump. A refusal to learn the necessary lessons and to try to pretend that Donald Trump was some isolated event that sprung from nowhere. Biden voters and apologists would like to desperately pretend that we can simply rewind the clock and return to how things were before.
 

JDSN

Banned
Oct 27, 2017
5,129
This is the nature of the country. Now there won't be none of that "#notmypresident" bullshit.
 
Joe Biden Worked to Undermine the Affordable Care Act’s Coverage of Contraception
OP
OP
Tracygill

Tracygill

Banned
Nov 2, 2017
1,853
The Left
What happens if he's the nominee is pretty obvious. He'll rubber stamp whatever Congress is able to put on his desk, and on this particular issue there's no way in hell a dem congress would put a bill defunding abortion on his desk. He won't get rid of the filibuster (Note: Most candidates, including Bernie are against it as well), so without 60 his options are limited. It is interesting to note that his and Beto's climate plans almost seem designed to pass in reconciliation, however.
You are assuming that the democratic party will keep the house and senate if Biden is the democratic presidential candidate.

As vice president, Joe Biden repeatedly sought to undermine the Affordable Care Act's contraception mandate, working in alliance with the U.S. Conference of Catholic Bishops to push for a broad exemption that would have left millions of women without coverage.

Biden's battle over contraception is a window into his approach to the politics of reproductive freedom, a function of an electoral worldview that centers working-class Catholic men over the interests of women. The issue has been causing his presidential campaign some discomfort — on Wednesday, Biden's campaign clarified that he remains a supporter of the so-called Hyde Amendment, a provision that bars federal money from being used to fund reproductive health services. Biden had recently told an activist with the ACLU that he opposed the amendment, and wanted to see it repealed.
On contraception, according to contemporaneous reporting and to sources involved with the internal debate, Biden had argued that if the regulations implementing the Affordable Care Act were going to mandate coverage, it would anger white, male Catholic voters, and threaten President Obama's reelection in 2012. Biden's main ally in the internal fight over contraception was Chief of Staff William Daly; both men are Catholic.
Opposing Biden was a faction of mostly women advisers, joined by some men, who argued that Biden had both the policy and the politics wrong. On policy, they noted that if his broad exemption went into effect, upwards of six million women who happened to be employed by religious-affiliated organizations would lose contraception coverage. The politics were just as bad, they argued, given that women were increasingly becoming central to the party's success. To turn on them on the issue of access to birth control — embracing a fringe position not even adopted by most Catholics who aren't bishops — would put that support at risk.


Biden is so out of step, in fact, that when he was shown polling data during the contraception fight, he dismissed it as inaccurate. He has a view of the American electorate's politics on abortion that can't be influenced by new facts. Jake Tapper, then reporting for ABC News, reported in February 2012:
The two sides couldn't even agree about what they were debating. In the fall, [Planned Parenthood head Cecile] Richards brought in polling indicating that the American people overwhelmingly supported the birth control benefit in health insurance. She also highlighted statistics showing the overwhelming use of birth control.

The Vice President and others argued that this wouldn't be seen as an issue of contraception — it would be seen as an issue of religious liberty. They questioned the polling of the rule advocates, arguing that it didn't explain the issue in full, it ignored the question of what religious groups should have to pay for. And they argued that women voters for whom this was an important issue weren't likely to vote for Mitt Romney, who has drawn a strong anti-abortion line as a presidential candidate, saying he would end federal funding to Planned Parenthood and supporting a "personhood" amendment that defines life as beginning at the moment of fertilization.
 

Deleted member 4346

User requested account closure
Banned
Oct 25, 2017
8,976
And you think this is why we lost? Supported by what research? Just gut feelings?

www.vox.com

The past year of research has made it very clear: Trump won because of racial resentment

Another study produces the same findings we’ve seen over and over again.

If you wanted to actually pander to Obama-Trump flippers, you would have to throw minorities under the bus, not just cater to abortion types. And of course, if you actually do throw minorities under the bus for "moderate" Republican votes you deserve to be dragged for every bit of it. Do you think caving on abortion can ameliorate the racial animus driving modern politics?

I predict they will. Biden has a HORRIBLE record on race. They'll throw black issues and trans issues under the bus if they think it can win them moderates in swing states.
 

samoyed

Banned
Oct 26, 2017
15,191
I predict they will. Biden has a HORRIBLE record on race. They'll throw black issues and trans issues under the bus if they think it can win them moderates in swing states.
Well yes I wouldn't be surprised when he does.

I'm going to look forward to "sorry it's nothing personal but we have to win 2020 so maybe you can deal with it for a few years" apologetics.
 

JesseEwiak

Banned
Oct 31, 2017
3,781
If we transitioned over to a "pure" democracy overnight and abolished the electoral college, the left would win more.

If we used measures that actually accurately represented populations by using proportional systems and ranked choice voting like many European countries, the left would win more.

Actually, proportional representation would likely give more to centrists who would always hold power as the median vote in a PR system.

In a FPTP vote system, Bernie can win a 35-40% of delegates, become the nominee, win the general election, then have a Cabinet of like minded folks and be able to completely shift the Overton Window by appointing people to various offices, just like Reagan did in '80.

OTOH, in a PR system, even if the Social Democrats won the most seats, they'd still be in a coalition with moderates who'd hold key seats. How is Bernie going to push against Wall Street corruption via the DOJ or various other orgs if the moderates say, 'put our people in those cabinet positions or we ally with the Libertarians and form a government.'

Ironically, PR was first pushed by liberal parties in Europe worried the socialists would overwhelm them in a FPTP system. - https://twitter.com/davidshor/status/849651876735967233 / http://web.stanford.edu/~jrodden/Manuscript/shadow.pdf

Now, I still support PR, but also don't think it'll be a boon to the Left that they think it'll be.

Also, a reminder - most Democrats disagree with liberal orthodoxy on at least one major issue - https://twitter.com/davidshor/status/855478654264123393 / https://dataverse.harvard.edu/dataset.xhtml?persistentId=doi:10.7910/DVN/HOH1F0

Also, the American electorate in general, is right wing compared to the rest of the world - https://twitter.com/davidshor/status/942627284174934016

Europe passed social welfare policies, even with PR giving more power to the center because it didn't have wacked out racial policies. Now, we're seeing in real time, what happens to European policies when there's an Other to go after and hey, the same thing that happened in America is happening there.
 

Driver

Banned
Oct 27, 2017
1,053
Southern California
The country is fucked because the Democratic establishment, long-time party leaders and major liberal donors, don't see Trump for what he is- he's a symptom rather than the disease. Symptom of decades of increasing wealth inequality, globalization, automation, and the tax burden increased on the middle class while the social safety net and infrastructure crumbled. Decades of both Republicans and yes, Democrats, running on dog-whistle racism, xenophobia, sexism, homophobia, and transphobia.

Nominating Biden is a refusal to acknowledge the conditions that birthed Trump. A refusal to learn the necessary lessons and to try to pretend that Donald Trump was some isolated event that sprung from nowhere. Biden voters and apologists would like to desperately pretend that we can simply rewind the clock and return to how things were before.

I don't disagree with any of this.
 
Nov 2, 2017
2,243
How would you abolish the electoral college? Face it progressives unless you start gunning down Republicans in the streets you will never get the electoral college abolished. The right ain't stupid, they know that's how they get to stay in power so they won't just turn over just cause you bitch about it.

National Popular Vote Interstate Compact.

If we can get states representing 99 more electoral votes on board, the electoral college system will be bypassed and effectively dead.

EDIT: In case you've never heard of it, the idea is a coalition of states that represents 270 EVs pledges all their EVs to the national popular vote winner. Once that's in place, we can then set to the task of eliminating the EC now that it's useless.
 

Deleted member 31817

Nov 7, 2017
30,876
Actually, proportional representation would likely give more to centrists who would always hold power as the median vote in a PR system.

In a FPTP vote system, Bernie can win a 35-40% of delegates, become the nominee, win the general election, then have a Cabinet of like minded folks and be able to completely shift the Overton Window by appointing people to various offices, just like Reagan did in '80.

OTOH, in a PR system, even if the Social Democrats won the most seats, they'd still be in a coalition with moderates who'd hold key seats. How is Bernie going to push against Wall Street corruption via the DOJ or various other orgs if the moderates say, 'put our people in those cabinet positions or we ally with the Libertarians and form a government.'

Ironically, PR was first pushed by liberal parties in Europe worried the socialists would overwhelm them in a FPTP system. - https://twitter.com/davidshor/status/849651876735967233 / http://web.stanford.edu/~jrodden/Manuscript/shadow.pdf

Now, I still support PR, but also don't think it'll be a boon to the Left that they think it'll be.

Also, a reminder - most Democrats disagree with liberal orthodoxy on at least one major issue - https://twitter.com/davidshor/status/855478654264123393 / https://dataverse.harvard.edu/dataset.xhtml?persistentId=doi:10.7910/DVN/HOH1F0

Also, the American electorate in general, is right wing compared to the rest of the world - https://twitter.com/davidshor/status/942627284174934016

Europe passed social welfare policies, even with PR giving more power to the center because it didn't have wacked out racial policies. Now, we're seeing in real time, what happens to European policies when there's an Other to go after and hey, the same thing that happened in America is happening there.
I just meant the left as in not republicans. Prolly should have expanded that lol

Not leftists
 

JesseEwiak

Banned
Oct 31, 2017
3,781
Funny that you say that...


If you guys think Joe Biden should be a Republican, than you probably think half of the current Democratic Party base should be Republicans, since a super majority of Democrats disagree with at least one bit of liberal orthodoxy - https://twitter.com/davidshor/status/855478654264123393

Ironically, whatever his actual views, since Biden is agrees with all the views in the above Tweet, Biden's stated views are to the left of 70% of actual Democrat's.
 

Deleted member 22490

User requested account closure
Banned
Oct 28, 2017
9,237
I predict they will. Biden has a HORRIBLE record on race. They'll throw black issues and trans issues under the bus if they think it can win them moderates in swing states.
Yup because of the main goal is to oust Trump, then throwing minorities will be politically expedient. We see it time and time again.
 

JesseEwiak

Banned
Oct 31, 2017
3,781
I just meant the left as in not republicans. Prolly should have expanded that lol

Not leftists

Sure then. Almost anything would be better than our current system. Just wanted to throw water on the 'the Left would rule in a PR system.'

Yup because of the main goal is to oust Trump, then throwing minorities will be politically expedient. We see it time and time again.

It'll be so politically expedient, that 40-50% of African American voters will vote for Biden in the primaries!
 

THE210

Member
Nov 30, 2017
1,544
Pod Save America had a really interesting guest on recently who talked about the need for the party to start embracing it's positions rather rather than apologizing for them.
 

Icemonk191

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
3,814
Got to love how the people who defend Biden can never come up a good reason to support him other then "BuT hE's THe onLY OnE WHo caN BeAT TruMP!"
 

Luminish

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
6,508
Denver
I don't think it's going anywhere even if the Dems get the Senate. No matter who is President.
It matters all the damn time. Every single bill that comes close to funding abortions creates a debate about it. You cannot touch healthcare spending without questioning if the bill should be written to apply the hyde amendment or not and in what ways. Remember that's not a permanent constitutional law. It practically has to be constantly affirmatively voted for or against every time you pass anything related, including routine funding bills.
 

Freakzilla

Banned
Oct 31, 2017
5,710
I hope this is supposed to be a circumvented by some sort of loophole where you get reimbursed or the government someway indirectly pays for it ....
 

Luminish

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
6,508
Denver
If you guys think Joe Biden should be a Republican, than you probably think half of the current Democratic Party base should be Republicans, since a super majority of Democrats disagree with at least one bit of liberal orthodoxy - https://twitter.com/davidshor/status/855478654264123393

Ironically, whatever his actual views, since Biden is agrees with all the views in the above Tweet, Biden's stated views are to the left of 70% of actual Democrat's.

Why is the employer religious exemption for birth control on there? Being against that doesn't make you not liberal, and the first two polls I could find goes the opposite direction. I guess you'd be in the Not all of the above group if you disagree with that?


 

JesseEwiak

Banned
Oct 31, 2017
3,781
Why is the employer religious exemption for birth control on there? Being against that doesn't make you not liberal, and the first two polls I could find goes the opposite direction. I guess you'd be in the Not all of the above group if you disagree with that?



The birth control text is right but the dependent variable was reverse coded for the table. In other words 72% of Democrats think employers shouldn't be exempt.

Putting that aside though, as I said, only 28% of Democrat's believe the government should subsidize low interest student loans, have strong restrictions on the purchase of guns, a universal health care system, increase taxes on those making more than 250k, that the government should fund the arts, the government should do more to protect the environment, same sex marriage, and that employers shouldn't be able to refuse to cover birth control as far as health care plans go.

Now, the good news is that most of that opposition on these issues is relatively low valence (ie. somebody who supports 5 out of 7 isn't going to not vote for the Democrats because of the other two), but the very fact Biden openly supports all of the above means that he is publicly to the left of 70% of the current Democratic electorate.
 

Notyou

Banned
Jul 31, 2018
164
You can go fuck yourself I've left my blood on the street of Sacramento and San Francisco many times defending these ideals. People are pissed that they are signing away out rights. What are you some Gen X tough guy? Lest we all forget how gen X handled the aids epidemic.
I am Gen X and, if I say so myself, pretty tough. Most of us were 8-13 years old during the AIDS epidemic...what the hell were we supposed to do? Gotta agree with the other poster... no fucking clue as to what you're getting at...
 

Kirblar

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
30,744
You can go fuck yourself I've left my blood on the street of Sacramento and San Francisco many times defending these ideals. People are pissed that they are signing away out rights. What are you some Gen X tough guy? Lest we all forget how gen X handled the aids epidemic.
Gen X-ers were mostly kids to college age during the AIDS outbreak and epidemic in the 80s/90s. What in the hell did you expect of them?
 

kittens

Banned
Oct 27, 2017
4,237
I really don't want this man anywhere near the presidency. The fact that he was VP is already disgusting enough.
 

samoyed

Banned
Oct 26, 2017
15,191
The nightmare scenario for lefties electoral theory-wise is Biden winning, and then decimating Trump in a wave election.
Yes, I won't lie this is kind of a nightmare scenario. It'd put to death of any hope of a progressive realignment for the next 40 or so years.

Oh sure, short term we get a D president but long term it shows Ds to be Rs in their blood.
 

Deleted member 2145

User requested account closure
Banned
Oct 25, 2017
29,223
Saw this a few days ago. He was called out on this lie, claimed he would stop telling this lie, but continued to tell the lie anyway. I really hope he gets crushed in the upcoming debates.

guarantee if the other dems go hard at biden on a lot of this stuff it'll get framed as personal attacks. people are going to have to be careful. I think warren is gonna have to be the one to sink biden, she'll execute better on keeping it about the issues and her words will hold up to scrutiny.
 

Kirblar

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
30,744
To not dehumanize gay people?
Gen X is people born from 1965-1980. The AIDS crisis was the 80s through the mid 90s. How exactly are literal schoolchildren supposed to be doing anything? They weren't the people who elected Reagan, none of them could vote in 1980.
Yes, I won't lie this is kind of a nightmare scenario. It'd put to death of any hope of a progressive realignment for the next 40 or so years.

Oh sure, short term we get a D president but long term it shows Ds to be Rs in their blood.
I mean, it'd really show that negative enthusiasm rules all, hence our pendulum of stupid in politics.
 

Nairume

SaGa Sage
Member
Oct 25, 2017
6,940
Got to love how the people who defend Biden can never come up a good reason to support him other then "BuT hE's THe onLY OnE WHo caN BeAT TruMP!"
That or they rely on the weak excuse of "ThE PoLlS TaKeN A YeAr BeFoRe ThE PrImArY aNd WiTh dIfFeReNt sOuRcEs SaY He iS tHe MoSt PoPuLaR"

Gen X is people born from 1965-1980. The AIDS crisis was the 80s through the mid 90s. How exactly are literal schoolchildren supposed to be doing anything? They weren't the people who elected Reagan, none of them could vote in 1980.
Your age range puts them at early Gen-Xers being in high school when the crisis began (and most-gen-xers having been through high school by the time the crisis was partially alleviated by the mid-90s) and well into adulthood when the crisis actually became a full blown crisis. They may not have been a sizable voting block, but enough of them were old enough to start speaking out against shitty cultural norms.

Instead, we got years of of gay panic jokes in Gen X focused/made media.
 
Last edited:

Steel

The Fallen
Oct 25, 2017
18,220
Yes, I won't lie this is kind of a nightmare scenario. It'd put to death of any hope of a progressive realignment for the next 40 or so years.

Oh sure, short term we get a D president but long term it shows Ds to be Rs in their blood.
The only thing it really implies is that substance doesn't matter to the electorate, but rather perception. Which is true and has been proven true in many past elections.