John McCain has died at age 81 (READ OP)

Status
Not open for further replies.

Novel Mike

Member
Oct 25, 2017
2,257
Many people are dead because of things he voted for, and I grew up watching him tell me that people like me aren't fit to serve the military or have rights.

I have absolutely every right to criticize him even on the day he dies. You're free to stuff it with all this "you're tactless and disrespectful" bullshit.
So you think its fine for any person who was hurt by Obama policies/decisions to do the same the day he dies as well? I'm not being antagonistic when I ask that I do want to know what you think because I think in either case its wrong and something I would expect a hell of a lot of people on the left to be up in arms about when that day eventually comes.
 

danm999

Member
Oct 29, 2017
5,743
Sydney
On the day the man dies? YES! Have some fucking respect man if not for him then for his family, it hasn't even been 12 hours since the man died and you already want to piss on his grave?


He served the country, part of that is fighting for the rights of all American's its not as if he was the one who was deciding what War he would fight in. You want to call him out now as his family grieves over their loss then thats up to you but I'll have a hell of a lot of less respect for you then I do McCain, thats for damn sure.


This isn't about fucking Vietnam, its about a man who served in a war, was captured and tortured for five and a half years and when he was given the opportunity to leave early before other soldiers he refused. I call that heroic if you don't, then I have nothing else to say to you.

-----

This is one of the worst threads I've seen on this forum. If you want to hate McCain then go for it but attacking him the way that you are so soon after his death is a trashy thing to do that I would expect from lesser individuals. This is the kind of thing I expect from the Alt-right and other hate groups. It's really sick that people think this is an okay thing to do.

I know people are angry about what he voted for, what he did later in life, about Vietnam, other wars, Republicans in general but there is a time and a place for these conversations and this thread is not it. Some of you seriously need to step away and reconsider what it is your fighting for and how you want to fight for it because this is not the way to make any progress at all and all you are doing is making the rest of us on the left look like a hate filled mob that places like Fox New's constantly refer to us as.
I'm sorry but McCain wasn't drafted, and he specifically requested to be transferred to a combat mission on the Forrestal during the Vietnam War.

The Vietnam War was a horrific crime of imperialist war, and to ask to take an active role in all that is shockingly malicious.

What was done to him as a POW was also a shockingly malicious crime, but the true mark against him is that he did not grow from his experience and see the horror of war, but continued to peddle every war and intervention he could.
 

CynicalSyndie

Member
Apr 16, 2018
469
I said a measure. Not alot. The current republicans have no dignity, no integrity and no respect for the offices they hold. McCain for all his faults and shitty political opinions at least had a modicum of respect for the offices of government.
I think Eisenhower was the last Republican President I can say I truly respected. Last Senator was Richard Lugar mostly for his work on nuclear disarmament.
 

Tagesreste

Member
Oct 27, 2017
854
So you think its fine for any person who was hurt by Obama policies/decisions to do the same the day he dies as well? I'm not being antagonistic when I ask that I do want to know what you think because I think in either case its wrong and something I would expect a hell of a lot of people on the left to be up in arms about when that day eventually comes.
Dude, I'm talking about McCain. Your whataboutism is irritating. McCain actively worked against civil rights for people. They are absolutely justified in not giving up and making sure people know his true history even when he's dead.
 

Instro

Member
Oct 25, 2017
6,464
I can't say I really see the point in moderating responses on this. I mean personally I probably wouldn't go in hard on the dude when he just died of brain cancer, and has been a fixture in US politics and media for decades. However, I was never personally affected by his politics like others obviously were, so I can completely understand why some people are fine with crapping on him right out of the gate.
 

Skelepuzzle

Member
Apr 17, 2018
6,080
I'd seriously love to know how that somehow suggests I'm telling minority's to shut up
So all of the minorities who have been hurt by his policies and votes, and all of the people who've lost family in the pointless wars he voted for, should just shut the fuck up, I guess?
On the day the man dies? YES! Have some fucking respect man
There you go. It's what you said.
 

deepFlaw

Member
Oct 25, 2017
13,959
I'm sorry but McCain wasn't drafted, and he specifically requested to be transferred to a combat mission on the Forrestal during the Vietnam War.

For a horrific crime of an imperialist war, that is shockingly malicious.

What was done to him as a POW was also a shockingly malicious crime, but the true mark against him is that he did not grow from his experience and see the horror of war, but continued to peddle every war and intervention he could.
Thank you for addressing this, because the thread sorta moved past it but I also felt that Mike was very much missing the bit where he wasn’t drafted there.
 

BDS

Member
Oct 25, 2017
8,675
I'm curious, for all you Official Arbiters of Civil Discussion, when you say we're supposed to wait for the "proper time and place" to criticize the recently deceased, when is that time and where is the place? I want to make sure I have my scheduling in order.

(No one has ever answered this question when asked)
 

Heromanz

Member
Oct 25, 2017
15,790
So you think its fine for any person who was hurt by Obama policies/decisions to do the same the day he dies as well? I'm not being antagonistic when I ask that I do want to know what you think because I think in either case its wrong and something I would expect a hell of a lot of people on the left to be up in arms about when that day eventually comes.
Wait we're not talking about Obama we're talking about John McCain. Stop trying to deflect this
 

deepFlaw

Member
Oct 25, 2017
13,959
So you think its fine for any person who was hurt by Obama policies/decisions to do the same the day he dies as well? I'm not being antagonistic when I ask that I do want to know what you think because I think in either case its wrong and something I would expect a hell of a lot of people on the left to be up in arms about when that day eventually comes.
I think every person who was hurt by his - or anyone’s - policies/decisions is free to do so every moment of their lives, and their loved ones beyond that, regardless of whether he is alive, dying, recently dead, long dead, reanimated, a hologram, or whatever you want.

The people hurt by someone shouldn’t have to shut up just because people that admire them - but never knew them personally in any way - want their time to feel guiltlessly sad.
 
Oct 26, 2017
4,300
Yep, how people see that as an amazing moment is beyond me.
Delusional af.
This is the first I’ve heard of his response being interpreted differently. I always took it to mean that Obama was a decent human being and that his ethnicity was incidental (ie he was a decent human being first and foremost). Even as an arab american , while I do see how it could have been framed more eloquently, I never saw this as an insult. Twice he told his audience that they wouldn’t have anything to fear of Obama were to become president in a forum where he refused the help of a teleprompter
 

CynicalSyndie

Member
Apr 16, 2018
469
This is the first I’ve heard of his response being interpreted differently. I always took it to mean that Obama was a decent human being and that his ethnicity was incidental. Even as an arab american , while I do see how it could have been framed more eloquently, I never saw this as an insult. Twice he told his audience that they wouldn’t have anything to fear of Obama were to become president in a forum where he refused the help of a teleprompter
I think you would have to stretch it beyond any real interpretation to get anything beyond what you saw.
 

Skelepuzzle

Member
Apr 17, 2018
6,080
You know what your right I did say that and I was wrong for doing so. That was not my intent and I apologize.
Apologizing is better than what most do. We had a poster in another thread who was a direct victim of the Vietnam war banned for getting heated about his beliefs... there are many perspectives I have not appreciated or considered over the years. It's good to seek to understand each other, even if we make mistakes.
 
Oct 25, 2017
6,426
Apologizing is better than what most do. We had a poster in another thread who was a direct victim of the Vietnam war banned for getting heated about his beliefs... there are many perspectives I have not appreciated or considered over the years. It's good to seek to understand each other, even if we make mistakes.
Unfortunate, really.
Those of us who originally come from places affected by fucked up foreign policy or illegitimate wars can't be heated about it huh?
Fucking hell...
 
Oct 25, 2017
5,583
Some users were talking about McCain changing some positions for the better, and he should be commended for changing his mind (which I agree with). He didn’t always change his mind for the better, as evident in his 2010 campaign.

May 2010:

Previously:
https://abcnews.go.com/Politics/john-mccain-immigration-reversal-complete-danged-fence/story?id=10616090
Facing the most difficult primary challenge he has seen in years, the ad is the most recent in a series of measures McCain, R-Ariz., has taken which play to the far right of his party, including endorsing a controversial new law that allows police to stop people they suspect are illegal immigrants and demand identification.
McCain's call to complete the "danged fence" is similar in tone to a comment he made in 2007, but rather different in substance.

In a 2007 Vanity Fair interview, McCain said, "I think the fence is least effective. But I'll build the g..damned fence if they want it."

A year later in September 2008, on the eve of the presidential election, McCain told the Spanish-language station Univision that his plan did not include "walls and fences."

"What my plan was, and what our proposal was, that we secure our borders, and we can secure it, not necessarily with walls and fences. Although that is important in populated areas, in the deserts of Arizona vehicle barriers, cameras, and sensors, all of those things, can be used," he said.

In 2005, McCain and Sen. Ted Kennedy, D-Mass, proposed a bipartisan plan that would increase border security, but also grant amnesty to illegal workers already in the country. The bill ultimately failed in the Senate.

The near 180 degree flip in his position led conservative columnist Kathleen Parker to deadpan to ABC News.com: "Let's just say that my cringe reflex is exhausted."
 
Oct 25, 2017
6,426
Yeah, I can't be diplomatic about how I feel about that. I'm glad that he spoke up and gave his perspective though, it was informative.
I'm glad he said it as well. It may have not been elegant, but anyone with an ounce of empathy can understand why people feel the way he did when he wrote those posts.
Or why people have similar thoughts about men like Mccain.

But I guess empathy is in short supply.
Easy to act respectful and call him a hero when you ignore people affected by actions in part by him.
It'll always be bullshit.
 

bane833

Member
Nov 3, 2017
3,572
No respect from me for a man that supported one of the most vile, harmful political organizations on this planet.
 

MrRob

Member
Oct 26, 2017
4,688
I offer him and his legacy as much respect as he has offered me while contributing to make my life harder.


Except the poster literally showed you a, frankly inexcusable, instance where he literally has done the opposite of what you claim he represents. And what he's pointing out has nothing to do with a specific policy. He's not any different.

Besides most GOP politicians have backtracked or admitted things havent worked like they said they would at least once in their career. Raise your standards please.
Nah, I'm good. My standards feel just fine to me. That vote McCain made was more about his political belief that I disagree with. His vote was based on his ideology that business should be able to exist without intrusion of government obersight and regulations. It was not to chest bump David Duke.

I think it's sad that our politics are so polarized that it's not ok to say anything good or have any respect for anyone in the opposing party.
 

Tagesreste

Member
Oct 27, 2017
854
Nah, I'm good. My standards feel just fine to me. That vote McCain made was more about his political belief that I disagree with. His vote was based on his ideology that business should be able to exist without intrusion of government obersight and regulations. It was not to chest bump David Duke.

I think it's sad that our politics are so polarized that it's not ok to say anything good or have any respect for anyone in the opposing party.
Maybe because his voting record has been one big fuck you to minorities and women for decades.
 

Skelepuzzle

Member
Apr 17, 2018
6,080
Nah, I'm good. My standards feel just fine to me. That vote McCain made was more about his political belief that I disagree with. His vote was based on his ideology that business should be able to exist without intrusion of government obersight and regulations. It was not to chest bump David Duke.

I think it's sad that our politics are so polarized that it's not ok to say anything good or have any respect for anyone in the opposing party.
Politics and morality are not decoupled. Allowing businesses to discriminate is a hateful action.
 

deepFlaw

Member
Oct 25, 2017
13,959
Nah, I'm good. My standards feel just fine to me. That vote McCain made was more about his political belief that I disagree with. His vote was based on his ideology that business should be able to exist without intrusion of government obersight and regulations. It was not to chest bump David Duke.

I think it's sad that our politics are so polarized that it's not ok to say anything good or have any respect for anyone in the opposing party.
And it’s a good thing that he was opposed to civil rights because he didn’t want the government to enforce civil rights... how, exactly?

EDIT: Like, do realize what you’re saying is “he didn’t do it because he agreed with the white supremacists, he just thought it should be fine for the white supremacists to discriminate against everyone else without the government stopping them and didn’t prioritize that over not agreeing with white supremacists” and that’s somehow supposed to be better?
 

MrRob

Member
Oct 26, 2017
4,688
And it’s a good thing that he was opposed to civil rights because he didn’t want the government to enforce civil rights... how, exactly?

EDIT: Like, do realize what you’re saying is “he didn’t do it because he agreed with the white supremacists, he just thought it should be fine for the white supremacists to discriminate against everyone else without the government stopping them and didn’t prioritize that over not agreeing with white supremacists” and that’s somehow supposed to be better?
Nowhere in my post did I say it was "better". Even made sure to point out I didn't agree with the vote. What I said was that it wasn't a vote to side with Duke like the article in the post I responded to tried to infer.
 

Skelepuzzle

Member
Apr 17, 2018
6,080
Nowhere in my post did I say it was "better". Even made sure to point out I didn't agree with the vote. What I said was that it wasn't a vote to side with Duke like the article in the post I responded to tried to infer.
Enabling businesses to discrimate based on race was flat out siding with white supremacy.

I am inferring nothing. He enabled racism.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.