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LogicAirForce

Member
Oct 25, 2017
936
My local paper put out a scathing obituary. Hopefully its not too harsh for the mods here

https://www.phoenixnewtimes.com/news/john-mccain-america-senator-arizona-obituary-10001670
I'll never understand the belief that we should treat the dead with respect no matter what horrible things they did in life. I'm glad that the writer of this obituary didn't pull any punches. If you want to be remembered for being a great person then maybe you should try to actually be one before you die.
 
Oct 25, 2017
7,510
I'll never understand the belief that we should treat the dead with respect no matter what horrible things they did in life. I'm glad that the writer of this obituary didn't pull any punches. If you want to be remembered for being a great person then maybe you should try to actually be one before you die.

That's all there is to it. It's hard for some people for whatever reason.
Imagine knowing all of this and still calling him a "true American hero".
Bollocks.
 
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Cookie

Member
Oct 26, 2017
2,258
I've been to the Lake in Vietnam where his plane went down and the prison where he was held. I didn't know much about him before that but I gained a massive amount of respect for him after seeing that.

Too many people focus on the politics and look past the person.

I'm the first to say that Republicans are fucking scum but John McCain was not. He was a good man who was doing what he thought was best. The real tragedy here is that one of the last decent republicans is now gone.
 

excelsiorlef

Bad Praxis
Member
Oct 25, 2017
73,316
Too many people focus on the politics and look past the person.

He spent 35 years doing politics, politics make the man.

Doing bad things because you think they're right is still doing bad things, arguably it's even worse because they're so into doing bad things they they don't even have the capacity to realize it's bad.

Literally I get the feeling people care less about what you believe in but more how you believe in it.... which is nonsense.

I'm the first to say that Republicans are fucking scum but John McCain was not. He was a good man who was doing what he thought was best. The real tragedy here is that one of the last decent republicans is now gone.

There is no decent Republican.
 

Avitus

Member
Oct 25, 2017
12,904
I've been to the Lake in Vietnam where his plane went down and the prison where he was held. I didn't know much about him before that but I gained a massive amount of respect for him after seeing that.

He was offered an early release because his father was a prominent naval officer. He refused, despite being very injured. They beat him nearly to death for the refusal. I don't think people really understand what he went through. If they did, they wouldn't be trying to dunk on him on the day of his death.
 

Cookie

Member
Oct 26, 2017
2,258
He spent 35 years doing politics, politics make the man.

Doing bad things because you think they're right is still doing bad things, arguably it's even worse because they're so into doing bad things they they don't even have the capacity to realize it's bad.

Literally I get the feeling people care less about what you believe in but more how you believe in it.... which is nonsense.



There is no decent Republican.

And this is why America is truly fucked. It's a fucking war for all of you. It's ridiculous.
 

Deleted member 2171

User requested account closure
Banned
Oct 25, 2017
3,731
I will never get Democrat supporters opposition to border security.

Probably because the lack of a border wall or fence isn't the problem, and what conservatives don't realize is the parts they are building are not built literally on the border, but are set back, so the government is taking land from farmers and US citizens to make the wall, or has put them literally on the "Mexico" side of the wall when they go around their property (even though they're still on US soil)
 

excelsiorlef

Bad Praxis
Member
Oct 25, 2017
73,316
People mistake tone of goodness and decency.

McCain knew how to present tone (sometimes... there's a lot of not good tone that people have had to bend over backwards to explain away) and that's why he's so easily praised...

Because at the end of the day it really isn't what you do but how you do it that people seem to really care about.... I'll take a pass on that, polite oppression is still oppression.
 

kbear

Banned
Oct 31, 2017
652
I'm a Republican myself but I've never been too fond of the guy on multiple levels but ultimately that's irrelevant at a time like this. He did do the right thing voting against that healthcare plan. Pushing a half-assed plan through was a bad idea from the start. Can't do that for an enormous, sweeping program like healthcare -- gotta be done right. RIP, absolutely awful way to go.
 

Dandy

Member
Oct 25, 2017
4,442
RIP.

My political beliefs are the opposite of his, but he is worthy of respect for standing up to the current administration, not to mention his years of service.
 

perfectchaos007

It's Happening
Member
Oct 25, 2017
12,231
Texas
I'm a Republican myself but I've never been too fond of the guy on multiple levels but ultimately that's irrelevant at a time like this. He did do the right thing voting against that healthcare plan. Pushing a half-assed plan through was a bad idea from the start. Can't do that for an enormous, sweeping program like healthcare -- gotta be done right. RIP, absolutely awful way to go.

Cancer sucks, but he outlived the average US male life expectancy by 5 years so he lived a full life and then some. If I'm ever unfortunately diagnosed with cancer, I can only hope it happens after age 80 where I know I lived a full life. In my opinion the worst way to go, for an elderly person, is Alzheimer's. Slowly forgetting everything you love in life as you deteriorate is just depressing. Sounds like McCain was, for the most part, aware and cognizant till the end
 

Nerokis

Member
Oct 25, 2017
5,561


This is McCain in a nutshell.

On one hand, that was a more-than-solid speech. He criticized the Democrats on process grounds just enough, proceeded to paint this stark picture of "liberal bastions" disconnected from the needs of soldiers, injected just enough nuance with the disclaimer that his criticism of repeal wasn't about social issues but rather practical demands stemming from being in a time of war, and delivered all this with eloquence and pathos and authority.

On the other, he was 100% wrong, and it could be seen even back then: the speech amounted to fearmongering, to ridiculous worst case scenario thinking, and leaned into the same tired rationalizations that had been used to sustain an unjust status quo in the past.

But again, it had a purposefulness that rooted it in something bigger than pure pettiness and tribalism, which at least implied a position amendable to evolution. For example, here:

McCain has not traditionally been a standard-bearer for better integration of women and lesbian, gay, bisexual and transgender individuals in the military.

Six years ago, McCain led the Senate opposition to a repeal of the military's "Don't Ask, Don't Tell" policy preventing gays and lesbians from serving openly in the military, a provision that was tucked into that year's defense policy bill. He never reacted warmly to President Obama's plans to open all combat roles to women, and he has been similarly circumspect about plans to allow transgender troops to serve openly.

But over the same period, McCain also stepped forward as one of the few Republicans willing to vote for legislation preventing employment discrimination on the basis of sexual orientation or gender identity, and he spoke out against a bill in Arizona to allow businesses citing religious beliefs to deny service to gays and lesbians.

...and here:

Last year, the Obama administration moved to allow transgender troops to serve openly and to begin accepting new recruits and officers. Trump called for a ban on their service, but advocates have generally prevailed in federal court, including a recent decision that will force the Pentagon to begin recruiting them Jan. 1. The Pentagon intends to forward a new policy on transgender troop to Trump in late February.

In August, McCain gave the Pentagon cover to move deliberately.

"It would be a step in the wrong direction to force currently serving transgender individuals to leave the military solely on the basis of their gender identity rather than medical and readiness standards that should always be at the heart of Department of Defense personnel policy," McCain said in a statement.

That, to me, is McCain. He was a Republican who evolved for the better and for the worse in less-than-predictable fashion over the course of his career. Someone who had genuine ideals informing their framework for maneuvering around our politics, and at once someone who never even came close to living up to those ideals but still somehow managed to point to a better path. He inspired and fascinated me, but disappointed and frustrated me in at least equal measure. And that is a combination of emotions I expect to feel far less as I observe American politics from now on.
 

Dyle

One Winged Slayer
The Fallen
Oct 25, 2017
29,905
Cancer sucks, but he outlived the average US male life expectancy by 5 years so he lived a full life and then some. If I'm ever unfortunately diagnosed with cancer, I can only hope it happens after age 80 where I know I lived a full life. In my opinion the worst way to go, for an elderly person, is Alzheimer's. Slowly forgetting everything you love in life as you deteriorate is just depressing. Sounds like McCain was, for the most part, aware and cognizant till the end
Well good news, it looks like you've lived a full life already!

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ron_Paul
Born Ronald Ernest Paul
August 20, 1935 (age 83)
Pittsburgh, Pennsylvania, U.S.

/s
 

BernardoOne

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
10,289
You might not have liked the man nor his policies, but you can't say he wasn't a hero. Trump tried to disparage him the same way, but it's really a shallow thought to describe a man who endured years of torture for his country.
The US participation in the Vietnam War was nothing but completely messed up with horrific war crimes being constantly made by the US military. Nobody there was "protecting" the US. The only person worth to be called a hero is Lawrence Colburn and his crew.
 
Oct 25, 2017
22,378
Can't be serious

Why don't you get captured and tortured for god knows how long and have people tell you you ain't shit.

McCain as a politician sucked but he served his country well as a soldier and would not wish cancer on any man

So you invade a foreign country that poses to threat to you, bomb the shit out of it, rape and burn the civilian population, use chemical weapons to cause immense pain and miscarriages that still live on to this day but you are the hero because you got shot down and weirdly enough weren't treated well for your murdering, bombing raping and burning.

Ok, damn high standards you got there

Edit: Just to be clear, I'm not saying that McCain himself raped anybody (just so people don't misconstrue my words)
 
Nov 7, 2017
5,063
So you invade a foreign country that poses to threat to you, bomb the shit out of it, rape and burn the civilian population, use chemical weapons to cause immense pain and miscarriages that still live on to this day but you are the hero because you got shot down and weirdly enough weren't treated well for your murdering, bombing raping and burning.

Ok, damn high standards you got there
Smells like whataboutism

Yea what the US government did to Vietnam was shitty and the victims are certainly worthy of being called heroes but I don't think McCain himself was responsible for bombing the shit out of Vietnam, raping, burning civilians, using chemical weapons to cause immense pain and miscarriages.
 
Oct 25, 2017
22,378
Smells like whataboutism

Yea what the US government did to Vietnam was shitty and the victims are certainly worthy of being called heroes but I don't think McCain himself was responsible for bombing the shit out of Vietnam, raping, burning civilians, using chemical weapons to cause immense pain and miscarriages.

You are right, he just wanted to do it but didn't get to, I guess. A real hero, for sure.
He was literally on a fucking bombing run when he got show down
 

excelsiorlef

Bad Praxis
Member
Oct 25, 2017
73,316
Smells like whataboutism

Yea what the US government did to Vietnam was shitty and the victims are certainly worthy of being called heroes but I don't think McCain himself was responsible for bombing the shit out of Vietnam, raping, burning civilians, using chemical weapons to cause immense pain and miscarriages.

Unlike most he actually wanted to go there.
 

Green Yoshi

Attempted to circumvent ban with an alt account
Banned
Oct 27, 2017
2,597
Cologne (Germany)


The clip seems to be from another time.

Some commentators on VOX.com accuse McCain of inciting hatred for Arabs with this sentence, because he allegedly opens up an opposition between "Arab" and "decent family man". The fact that McCain was one of the first top politicians to be confronted with conspiracy-theory-insanity and Islamophobia in public at the time, and that he reacted correctly in general, is something that the representatives of the moral-ethical 100 percent argumentation like to forget.
 

kbear

Banned
Oct 31, 2017
652
Cancer sucks, but he outlived the average US male life expectancy by 5 years so he lived a full life and then some. If I'm ever unfortunately diagnosed with cancer, I can only hope it happens after age 80 where I know I lived a full life. In my opinion the worst way to go, for an elderly person, is Alzheimer's. Slowly forgetting everything you love in life as you deteriorate is just depressing. Sounds like McCain was, for the most part, aware and cognizant till the end
I haven't done any extensive reading on this, just news stories that pop up, but there's been tremendous progress with Alzheimer's in terms of gene identification and editing stuff, and even a potential vaccine down the line. It's not pie-in-the-sky shit, either. Unfortunately, you can't say the same about many types of cancer, especially a devastating one like McCain had. It's depressing to think about.
 
Nov 7, 2017
5,063
Ok I'm not trying to convince people to change their minds about the guy

I mean I'm not fond of him either but fuck he's not fucking Hitler I'll say RIP and say he's a war hero. Some of yall have a lot of hate in your heart with someone who is not as shitty. Yall love this all or nothing black and white shit. You're either a good person or a scum no nuance or anything
 

excelsiorlef

Bad Praxis
Member
Oct 25, 2017
73,316


The clip seems to be from another time.

Some commentators on VOX.com accuse McCain of inciting hatred for Arabs with this sentence, because he allegedly opens up an opposition between "Arab" and "decent family man". The fact that McCain was one of the first top politicians to be confronted with conspiracy-theory-insanity and Islamophobia in public at the time, and that he reacted correctly in general, is something that the representatives of the moral-ethical 100 percent argumentation like to forget.


His running mate was a conspiracy-theorist-insane Islamophobe
 
Oct 25, 2017
22,378
Ok I'm not trying to convince people to change their minds about the guy

I mean I'm not fond of him either but fuck he's not fucking Hitler I'll say RIP and say he's a war hero. Some of yall have a lot of hate in your heart with someone who is not as shitty

Hitler and Hero may start both with the letter H but there is a little bit of a gray space between them. You can be shitty, disgusting human being without being Hitler. Just sayin'
 
Oct 25, 2017
3,231
Ok I'm not trying to convince people to change their minds about the guy

I mean I'm not fond of him either but fuck he's not fucking Hitler I'll say RIP and say he's a war hero. Some of yall have a lot of hate in your heart with someone who is not as shitty. Yall love this all or nothing black and white shit. You're either a good person or a scum no nuance or anything

His politics negatively affect people. They hurt people. Fuck outta here with this "he's not as shitty". He's still fucking shitty.
 

sensui-tomo

Attempted to circumvent ban with alt account
Banned
Oct 25, 2017
4,629


Meanwhile we have a Democrat calling him a warrior for peace..... what.

Because what smart politician wants to be seen calling a recently dead guy a p.o.s. Come on, it's a dumb idea for a politician to call out the short comings of a dude who just died. I mean i dunno, want to see him say "he was a swell dude, rip" or "fuck this man who fought in a dumb war, fucking shitty soldier who got caught, glad he dead"?
 

excelsiorlef

Bad Praxis
Member
Oct 25, 2017
73,316
Because what smart politician wants to be seen calling a recently dead a p.o.s. Come on, it's a dumb idea for a politician to call out the short comings of a dude who just died.

You can not do what you're suggesting they don't do without calling him a fucking warrior for peace....

Maybe Lewis is be sly sarcastic I dunno but if he's serious a warrior for peace is the least honest description of McCain I've read to date.

You can not shit on someone without declaring him a warrior for peace.
 

BernardoOne

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
10,289
Smells like whataboutism

Yea what the US government did to Vietnam was shitty and the victims are certainly worthy of being called heroes but I don't think McCain himself was responsible for bombing the shit out of Vietnam, raping, burning civilians, using chemical weapons to cause immense pain and miscarriages.
What whataboutism? He participated in a horrible war and was part of the horrible US campaign. He's no fucking hero. He even wanted to go there unlike most. He was on a motherfucking bombing run before being captured.
Ok I'm not trying to convince people to change their minds about the guy

I mean I'm not fond of him either but fuck he's not fucking Hitler I'll say RIP and say he's a war hero. Some of yall have a lot of hate in your heart with someone who is not as shitty. Yall love this all or nothing black and white shit. You're either a good person or a scum no nuance or anything
He's not a war hero, not. He was a shitty fucking person and him being a shitty person that wanted to go to a shitty war to do shitty things don't make him a fucking hero.
 

tulpa

Banned
Oct 28, 2017
3,878
What whataboutism? He participated in a horrible war and was part of the horrible US campaign. He's no fucking hero. He even wanted to go there unlike most. He was on a motherfucking bombing run before being captured.
And bombing a civilian target. It's worth mentioning that is a war crime under international law enshrined in the Geneva Convention.
 

Masquerader

Banned
Nov 4, 2017
1,383
Smells like whataboutism

Yea what the US government did to Vietnam was shitty and the victims are certainly worthy of being called heroes but I don't think McCain himself was responsible for bombing the shit out of Vietnam, raping, burning civilians, using chemical weapons to cause immense pain and miscarriages.

What whataboutism? He participated in a horrible war and was part of the horrible US campaign. He's no fucking hero. He even wanted to go there unlike most. He was on a motherfucking bombing run before being captured.

He's not a war hero, not. He was a shitty fucking person and him being a shitty person that wanted to go to a shitty war to do shitty things don't make him a fucking hero.

So he was only obeying orders, then?
 
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