John Romero announces SIGIL. DOOM free (mega)wad, February 2019. Limited Run physical edition also

Heroin Cat

Member
Oct 27, 2017
638
New Zealand
I finished it, and I liked the second half more than the first half. There's a survivalist element in play that I wasn't expecting in how there are few health and ammo pickups. There's enough ammo to get you through a level and then some extra, but I was not often at max ammo and the only backpack in the game is in the last level. The health pickups are stringent but they are enough for a decent run through. I gave up trying to clear levels without saving because I'd invariably mess up by losing too much health at one point and die to the opening shot of an enemy. If I was better I suppose I'd only be taking cheap hitscan shots and projectiles I didn't see, but I'm not that good.

This does translate to a slower-paced Doom than I was expecting. Levels don't have a par time so I don't have a point of comparison, but some levels took upwards of 12 minutes beginning to end (not including loading, restarts, etc. IIRC only E4 levels came close). Often times skipping enemies will bite you in the ass as parts of levels open up or they hit a teleporter and end up in a different room, so being methodical works out better (I know, usually you will kill everything but given the ammo balance you may think otherwise). An emphasis on shooting switches and backtracking through repopulated areas also contribute to this feeling.

Overall it's decent, meant to challenge Doom players by being a bit unconventional without being completely unfamiliar or unfair. I thought the final boss fight was a bit interesting:

So It's a Spider Mastermind. Cool. Then you fight a Cyber demon in a long hallway, negating the most effective strategy that Players have been using for years to kill it - Circle-strafing. It's a bit disappointing but funny nonetheless.

I'm not familiar enough with Doom to compare it to the base episodes, but it certainly wasn't as difficult as Thy Flesh Consumed could be. If you like Doom it's worth playing. If not, It's still an interesting experience to see a Dev return to a game that's two and a half decades old.
 

X68k

Member
Oct 25, 2017
85
Finally finished it on HMP and UV and I really enjoyed it. Probably my favorite aspect was how distinct each map felt, how each one had some interesting and abstract detailing to differentiate it visually from the others. I particularly loved the buildup to the climax of e5m7 with the teleporter gauntlet - but I really didn't like the last couple of rooms, the same ones that gman was complaining about with the barons blocking the door. Ironically, the barons were the least frustrating part of that room. :P

One big issue I have overall is that the maps really don't seem balanced for pistol starts at all, especially later on. You have to rely a ton on the chaingun because ammo distribution overwhelmingly favors pistol rounds, but there are -very- few chaingun pickups that i've actually managed to find. There's also a few parts in the maps where you can break triggers and make it impossible to finish. Feels a bit like Romero was pushing the limits of what's possible with vanilla linedef actions, for better or worse. Also, the last room is kind of busted on the compatibility version, where killing the mastermind will end the map prematurely.

Last thought: I think I actually prefer Jimmy's GM renditions of the music to the actual Buckethead tracks, at least when played through my sc88pro. It's really close, but in the end Doom just doesn't feel right without it's rompler music. :)
 

Fugu

Member
Oct 26, 2017
878
Finally finished it on HMP and UV and I really enjoyed it. Probably my favorite aspect was how distinct each map felt, how each one had some interesting and abstract detailing to differentiate it visually from the others. I particularly loved the buildup to the climax of e5m7 with the teleporter gauntlet - but I really didn't like the last couple of rooms, the same ones that gman was complaining about with the barons blocking the door. Ironically, the barons were the least frustrating part of that room. :P

One big issue I have overall is that the maps really don't seem balanced for pistol starts at all, especially later on. You have to rely a ton on the chaingun because ammo distribution overwhelmingly favors pistol rounds, but there are -very- few chaingun pickups that i've actually managed to find. There's also a few parts in the maps where you can break triggers and make it impossible to finish. Feels a bit like Romero was pushing the limits of what's possible with vanilla linedef actions, for better or worse. Also, the last room is kind of busted on the compatibility version, where killing the mastermind will end the map prematurely.

Last thought: I think I actually prefer Jimmy's GM renditions of the music to the actual Buckethead tracks, at least when played through my sc88pro. It's really close, but in the end Doom just doesn't feel right without it's rompler music. :)
I'd really like to see m5 done with a pistol start. That'd be something else.
 

Tomasdk

Member
Apr 18, 2018
311
I'm baffled at the amount of people I saw online complaining about no mouselook/jumping in Sigil. For me, that's unthinkable, mouselook in Doom? For what?
As I understand it, in the years after I stopped playing it, wads started coming out that were designed around it, even around jumping, but even then I can't even imagine. I must be old. :D
 
Oct 26, 2017
2,526
I'm baffled at the amount of people I saw online complaining about no mouselook/jumping in Sigil. For me, that's unthinkable, mouselook in Doom? For what?
As I understand it, in the years after I stopped playing it, wads started coming out that were designed around it, even around jumping, but even then I can't even imagine. I must be old. :D
What are the complaints? Can't they activate mouselook if they want in their favorite choice of sourceport?
 

Tomasdk

Member
Apr 18, 2018
311
What are the complaints? Can't they activate mouselook if they want in their favorite choice of sourceport?
They can ofcourse, but Romero tweeted that Sigil is designed for Doom 1 and mouselook/jumping in it is cheating. We could debate on whether using those features on maps that were designed around not having them is cheating or not, at the very least it breaks the gameplay because you can reach/shoot stuff you are not meant to (yet). I think people mostly reacted badly to the implication that they are cheaters heh. I could see that as an issue for someone who maybe never played Doom without those features, just as it is mind boggling for me to use them.
 

tiesto

Member
Oct 27, 2017
1,451
Long Island, NY
Sounds awesome. I recently played through the first episode of Doom and was pleasantly surprised with how it held up, felt like such a breath of fresh air compared to the last 15 years of fps gaming.
 

Bhonar

Banned
Oct 31, 2017
6,066
I'm baffled at the amount of people I saw online complaining about no mouselook/jumping in Sigil. For me, that's unthinkable, mouselook in Doom? For what?
As I understand it, in the years after I stopped playing it, wads started coming out that were designed around it, even around jumping, but even then I can't even imagine. I must be old. :D
there was definitely mouselook in the original official Doom 2. that's when I first started using mouselook and WASD in shooters, and I destroyed other players with it

I'm over 40 and played all those games when they came out. I don't think it was in Doom 1 though

there was no jumping in both
 

Tomasdk

Member
Apr 18, 2018
311
there was definitely mouselook in the original official Doom 2. that's when I first started using mouselook and WASD in shooters, and I destroyed other players with it

I'm over 40 and played all those games when they came out. I don't think it was in Doom 1 though

there was no jumping in both
There was horizontal look(turning) and mouse movement but no looking up or down in either the original Doom 1, 2 or Final Doom. Up and down look was added in source ports, I don't think any official release ever had it. I should have defined what I meant by mouselook.
 

svacina

Member
Oct 25, 2017
1,871
There was horizontal look(turning) and mouse movement but no looking up or down in either the original Doom 1, 2 or Final Doom. Up and down look was added in source ports, I don't think any official release ever had it. I should have defined what I meant by mouselook.
I am too old to circle strafe with alt anymore.
 

Bhonar

Banned
Oct 31, 2017
6,066
There was horizontal look(turning) and mouse movement but no looking up or down in either the original Doom 1, 2 or Final Doom. Up and down look was added in source ports, I don't think any official release ever had it. I should have defined what I meant by mouselook.
yeah I meant mouselook left and right, using a mouse to play the game

there was no up/down because the Dooms did not have a z-plane and was not true 3D world
 

Slick Butter

Member
Oct 25, 2017
1,737
I'm not totally feeling it so far, and I wasn't expecting it to be the best thing ever or anything. Got really stuck on one of the levels I played, but I don't consider that a reason to dislike it. There' is some cool stuff here, I like the atmosphere of the levels, and the visual design is generally neat. Music is great!

However, I don't really find the levels fun. They seem too labyrinth-like a lot of the time, and there's seemingly this obsession with having extremely tight small corridors as well as walking on tiny ledges against walls. Like what's with these tiny ass spaces that Doomguy is getting caught on as I walk through!

I can't really say if it's good or not, but I don't think it's for me. It's OK though, I will have another go at it sometime.
 

signal

Member
Oct 28, 2017
18,777
I've been playing good wads for like two months straight I don't know if this will match them 🤔
 

SmiteOfHand

Member
Oct 25, 2017
2,000
I've tried a bunch of different configurations and WASD (strafing) and turn with mouse (no look around business) feels like the best setup while maintaining the classic DOOM feel. Turning off move with mouse because what a god awful decision that was. We just didn't know what to do with the mouse at the time.

Most surprisingly revelation though is messing around with controller support and I thought I would hate a similar setup using analog sticks (move/strafe on left, turn only on right stick) and surprised to find it actually feels not bad. Weapon cycling is the bigger problem here but you can do something like key weapons like the shotgun on the d-pad and fill in the gaps using cycling. It isn't my top choice but I could make it work.
 

BuddyDharma

Member
Oct 27, 2017
3,544
They can ofcourse, but Romero tweeted that Sigil is designed for Doom 1 and mouselook/jumping in it is cheating. We could debate on whether using those features on maps that were designed around not having them is cheating or not, at the very least it breaks the gameplay because you can reach/shoot stuff you are not meant to (yet). I think people mostly reacted badly to the implication that they are cheaters heh. I could see that as an issue for someone who maybe never played Doom without those features, just as it is mind boggling for me to use them.
I don't know if I can go back to keyboard only. 😱

Does he mean full mouselook, or just left/right?
 
Oct 31, 2017
398
I'm not familiar enough with Doom to compare it to the base episodes, but it certainly wasn't as difficult as Thy Flesh Consumed could be. If you like Doom it's worth playing. If not, It's still an interesting experience to see a Dev return to a game that's two and a half decades old.
The most effective strategy for a cyberdemon is to run at it in a zig zag and blast it with a bfg point blank to exploit how the bfg mechanics work. 2 shots to kill a cyberdemon is easilly the most effective strategy.

Not to be pedantic. You learn some tricks when you play wads where you fight several at a time.
 

SmiteOfHand

Member
Oct 25, 2017
2,000
Not to be pedantic. You learn some tricks when you play wads where you fight several at a time.
I often wish there were well put together technique videos for landmark games to point people at so they can catch up on the last 25 years of theory but unfortunately it is a rare resource. And difficult to put together too. If I tried to sit down and put together a straightforward breakdown of basic to advanced play I'd probably get stuck in an infinite loop somewhere. It is incredibly difficult to summarize in an engaging way what comes natural after playing so long. Some people have that talent, it unfortunately skipped me.
 
Oct 25, 2017
1,293
Devil Halton's Trap
I often wish there were well put together technique videos for landmark games to point people at so they can catch up on the last 25 years of theory but unfortunately it is a rare resource. And difficult to put together too. If I tried to sit down and put together a straightforward breakdown of basic to advanced play I'd probably get stuck in an infinite loop somewhere. It is incredibly difficult to summarize in an engaging way what comes natural after playing so long. Some people have that talent, it unfortunately skipped me.
If you're okay with shitposting trash talk, then videos like "pro doom strats" are useful places to start:


For other games, I totally agree. The Doom community's active enough that you can find plenty of good resources quickly, but I'd love to see well-produced videos/guides for classics like Re-Volt or Montezuma's Return (still not out on GOG).
 

X68k

Member
Oct 25, 2017
85
a random thing i just remembered but never commented on is the weird crumbling hole in the wall in m7 that is actually a door. conceptually, you're supposed to be knocking it down to punch a hole big enough to walk through.

i can see people getting stuck because of it, but when i realized what it was going for i thought it was pretty neat. he definitely had some unorthodox ideas here - not all of them panned out but it's a damned good effort for someone who's been out of the game for so long and not even using boom format
 

HellBlazer

Member
Oct 26, 2017
350
They can ofcourse, but Romero tweeted that Sigil is designed for Doom 1 and mouselook/jumping in it is cheating. We could debate on whether using those features on maps that were designed around not having them is cheating or not, at the very least it breaks the gameplay because you can reach/shoot stuff you are not meant to (yet). I think people mostly reacted badly to the implication that they are cheaters heh. I could see that as an issue for someone who maybe never played Doom without those features, just as it is mind boggling for me to use them.
Why is mouselook cheating? I know you can't mouselook up/down in the original game, but the character would automatically aim up and down when there were monsters there, right? So full mouselook doesn't seem to give much of an advantage...
 

X68k

Member
Oct 25, 2017
85
Why is mouselook cheating? I know you can't mouselook up/down in the original game, but the character would automatically aim up and down when there were monsters there, right? So full mouselook doesn't seem to give much of an advantage...
you'd be able to shoot some triggers that would otherwise rely on correct positioning and either bypass things you're not meant to or softlock
 

Heroin Cat

Member
Oct 27, 2017
638
New Zealand
The most effective strategy for a cyberdemon is to run at it in a zig zag and blast it with a bfg point blank to exploit how the bfg mechanics work. 2 shots to kill a cyberdemon is easilly the most effective strategy.

Not to be pedantic. You learn some tricks when you play wads where you fight several at a time.
I can see that working. My experience with Doom is limited, and there are so many custom wads that I don't even know where to start. From that point of view I suppose the final level is a bit disappointing, as there are likely much tougher wads (several at at time sounds nuts but fun though).

Loving Buckethead's soundtrack
I liked it, but it did feel a bit mellow for a couple of levels. Thinking about it, I wonder if thats the point. That Sigil is going back to Doom's roots which less run and gun than Doom 2 and 2016 are. I'm not expert of course, and I've only ever experienced Doom 1 years after release.
 

SmiteOfHand

Member
Oct 25, 2017
2,000
If you're okay with shitposting trash talk, then videos like "pro doom strats" are useful places to start:


For other games, I totally agree. The Doom community's active enough that you can find plenty of good resources quickly, but I'd love to see well-produced videos/guides for classics like Re-Volt or Montezuma's Return (still not out on GOG).
And a good chunk of this could be compacted down to: "try bumping enemies."

That leaves out a lot of situational information, but introducing a likely unconsidered option with 3 words is some pretty effective brevity.

Now just figure out how to do that across all the most common techniques with a short applied example and you would really have something.
 

X68k

Member
Oct 25, 2017
85
Good example of software rendering vs gzdoom's default sector lighting mode posted on doomworld:

 

SmiteOfHand

Member
Oct 25, 2017
2,000
I've thrown everything I can think of at chocolate doom and no matter what it crashes eventually and cannot get anything but the midi soundtrack playing. If anyone has any ideas this is a very small sample of what I've tried. setting -mb 128 does seem to help with Z_Malloc errors but sooner or later it will crash with a visplanes error or flat crash with no error message at all. I assume the COMPAT version is meant to stay under the visplane limit but it crashes within the first minute of the map no matter where I go.

Code:
chocolate-doom.exe -iwad doom.wad -file SIGIL_COMPAT.wad
chocolate-doom.exe -iwad doom.wad -file SIGIL_COMPAT.wad SIGIL_SHREDS_COMPAT.wad
chocolate-doom.exe -iwad doom.wad -file SIGIL.wad SIGIL_COMPAT.wad SIGIL_SHREDS_COMPAT.wad

chocolate-doom.exe -iwad doom.wad -file SIGIL_COMPAT.wad -mb 128

chocolate-doom.exe -iwad doom.wad -merge SIGIL_COMPAT.wad
chocolate-doom.exe -iwad doom.wad -merge SIGIL_COMPAT.wad SIGIL_SHREDS_COMPAT.wad
chocolate-doom.exe -iwad doom.wad -file SIGIL_COMPAT.wad -merge SIGIL_SHREDS_COMPAT.wad
 

X68k

Member
Oct 25, 2017
85
I've thrown everything I can think of at chocolate doom and no matter what it crashes eventually and cannot get anything but the midi soundtrack playing. If anyone has any ideas this is a very small sample of what I've tried. setting -mb 128 does seem to help with Z_Malloc errors but sooner or later it will crash with a visplanes error or flat crash with no error message at all. I assume the COMPAT version is meant to stay under the visplane limit but it crashes within the first minute of the map no matter where I go.
the _COMPAT wads are for limit removing ports other than gzdoom that don't support MAPINFO (prboom, crispy doom, etc). In those, sigil appears as a replacement for doom's 3rd episode rather than its own seperate entry. chocolate doom doesn't work at all.

Heard some very bad reviews on this but willing to give it a go.
most of that is people regurgitating gmanlives' review verbatim and not bothering to form their own opinions
 

SmiteOfHand

Member
Oct 25, 2017
2,000
the _COMPAT wads are for limit removing ports other than gzdoom that don't support MAPINFO (prboom, crispy doom, etc). In those, sigil appears as a replacement for doom's 3rd episode rather than its own seperate entry. chocolate doom doesn't work at all.
readme lists it by name in the compatible versions section, and the 3rd episode replacement works.

COMPATIIBLE VERSIONS

There are some players who would like to use a more strict, old-school port
of DOOM like PRBOOM or CHOCOLATE DOOM, or the Eternity Engine. If you
are using a version that is very strict, then load the SIGIL_COMPAT.wad and
the SIGIL_SHREDS_COMPAT.wad so SIGIL will work as an Episode 3 replacement.
 

SmiteOfHand

Member
Oct 25, 2017
2,000
Had to switch the sound to GUS (emulated) in the setup program. OPL2 and OPL3 was silence if I include the shreds wad. Also Crispy Doom freaks out if I have more than one monitor on where it is not capturing the mouse properly (fullscreen and windowed) and will just register mouse click down forever shooting the gun. Tried changing the mouse setting as well to no avail. Unplugging the monitor seems to have fixed it.

Final command that appears to be working if anyone is looking. I have all 3 wads in the same folder as crispy doom. Using Ultimate Doom from Steam.

Code:
crispy-doom.exe -iwad doom.wad -file SIGIL_COMPAT.wad SIGIL_SHREDS_COMPAT.wad
And neat little bonus you can play through doom with the buckethead soundtrack.

Code:
crispy-doom.exe -iwad doom.wad -file SIGIL_SHREDS_COMPAT.wad
 
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Ionic

Member
Oct 31, 2017
1,249
I was worried hearing some of the initial reviews but I'm enjoying it. I've been playing so many huge modern mega-wads lately that it's nice to see levels back to the scale of the original games and the encounter design is pretty excitingly aggressive despite not using a huge quantity of monsters per level. Soundtrack is great as well.
 

lake

Member
Oct 27, 2017
831
I'm baffled at the amount of people I saw online complaining about no mouselook/jumping in Sigil. For me, that's unthinkable, mouselook in Doom? For what?
As I understand it, in the years after I stopped playing it, wads started coming out that were designed around it, even around jumping, but even then I can't even imagine. I must be old. :D
That is baffling. Geez.

Once in a while I realize some of today's Doom fans weren't yet born until years after 1993...
 

lake

Member
Oct 27, 2017
831
years? a lot of people getting into doom now were born well over a decade later :P

we are old, friend.
In some ways. In others I'm just getting started!

Pretty cool that classic Doom still attracts new fans. Wonder if there have been any other classic games with a comparable phenomenon occurring. Newcomers still pick up the great fighting-game classics sometimes, for one. SF2, Melee (less old, but), etc.

Edit: Doomkids just became my new favorite word
 
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roguesquirrel

The Fallen
Oct 29, 2017
2,470
last time i played through anything doom 1 was in 2015 to try out the selfie mod someone made so im looking forward to getting my ass kicked
 

SmiteOfHand

Member
Oct 25, 2017
2,000
I knew it wasn't likely to be updated to support chocolate doom but figured I'd check and 1.1 has the same issues. I played through the first 2 maps and didn't notice anything different big or small, and unfortunately no bug fix list, but sounds like a decent sized update and you can maintain your save.