John Woo fears Marvel movies ‘will make young audiences get lost when it comes to knowledge about film’

Oct 27, 2017
3,826
Wait, John Woo is talking about "real cinema". The one who makes those super cheesy, dumb as hell action movies. Whoever it comes from it's a ridiculous argument, but I'm surprised he's putting this out there.
His movies may not be sublime masterpieces that speak truth to the human soul (well, Hard Boiled does.) But think about it this way: when I watch a John Woo movie, I know I'm watching a John Woo movie. Big budget superhero movies, despite recruiting promising indie film directors, subsume all individuality. From Iron Man to Infinity War, they all have the same "voice." Even the ones that are supposed to be outliers, like Black Panther or Dr. Strange, never roam from that voice.
 

DarthSontin

Member
Oct 25, 2017
1,582
Pennsylvania
I'm surprised it's taken this long for bitter old directors to get jealous of Marvel's success and clutch their pearls about arbitrary definitions of "cinema" and "film." It's like if everyone got jealous of Call of Duty during the "video games as art" phase and decided that Call of Duty isn't a "video game" because it is too formulaic.
 

greepoman

Member
Oct 26, 2017
1,499
It really is funny how easy it is to become an old man yelling at stuff young people enjoy. Caught myself doing it when seeing some TikTok videos the other day.
 

Deleted member 16452

User requested account closure
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Oct 27, 2017
7,276
There’s room for popular easy to digest films and also more complex ones. It’s always been like this, nothing his has changed.
 

Zombine

Member
Oct 25, 2017
8,437
I was 18 when Iron Man 1 released, and now I have a charter sub with Criterion and I have two shelves of art house films and I see more creator owned works than ever before at age 30. If anything you could argue that like comic books are a gateway to reading, comic films are a gateway to getting more involved with cinema.

These old guy fears are pointless.
 

Gegz

Member
Oct 25, 2017
4,446
Wait, John Woo is talking about "real cinema". The one who makes those super cheesy, dumb as hell action movies. Whoever it comes from it's a ridiculous argument, but I'm surprised he's putting this out there.
Am i in the timeline where John Woo only made MI2 and Face/Off ? Because in my timeline, he made some great movies that have been inspiring people in movies/video games industry for decades now.
 

I KILL PXLS

Member
Oct 25, 2017
8,585
The MCU was already super popular prior to this year... why all these hot takes this year?
Honestly, I think a lot of people convinced themselves the superhero "bubble" was going to burst like 5 or 6 years ago, but here we are years later still trucking and Infinity War and Endgame become two of the hugest movies of all time (Hell 4 of the Top 10 right now are Avengers movies and 11 is Black Panther). I think it's starting to set in for people who aren't in to them that it doesn't look like the genre is going anywhere for the foreseeable future and they're getting antsy.

This is funny because MI:2's delayed shooting schedule (exacerbated by Dougray Scott's injury shooting I think this action scene), is the reason why Dougray Scott is not Wolverine.
 

ggdeku

Member
Oct 26, 2017
718
Trying throw his own movies back at him as if that is a valid counter to his argument is silly.

I think the thing these filmmakers are getting at, and Scorsese actually put to print in his NYT article, is the disney takeover of the film industry. Pushing out the mid level films and creating a space only for the big tentpoles.
 

Psychoward

Banned
Nov 7, 2017
30,874
Yes as opposed to all the nuanced critique minors did before the MCU

Blockbusters have always existed, what a silly argument
 

jroc74

Member
Oct 27, 2017
14,813
So many people in the industry getting salty over these Marvel movies lol. Yeesh.
It's amazing how heated these people are getting over movies about comic books as if every film before 2008 was worthy of an Oscar.
What does that have to do with marvel though? Explainer/Easter egg culture was happening in 2004 with Lost. The internet happened not the MCU.

edit:Film discourse has been democratized. So while you still have people having rich discussions on the medium today like before MCU you also have people who engage with it on a surface/superficial level. Which is find because people can enjoy art in whatever way they want.

Overall I’m sure basic film literacy has improved you just have 100% more people contributing their opinions instead of only professional film critics/film students/people who publish zines.
Exactly.
 

Alice

Banned
Nov 2, 2017
5,867
I was around when Video killed the Radio Star, ask me anything Era. Cinema is doomed and so is the entirety of human culture. (again)
 

Donald Draper

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Feb 2, 2019
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User Banned (permanent): Trolling, Antagonizing other users, Prior related infractions surrounding trolling and community attacks.
You were insecure enough to take the bait. Says a lot about you.
Scorcese is right. Coppola is right. Woo is right. And it burns you up inside. 🖤

I hope every celebrated film maker keeps chiming in and insulting the MCU. I'll see you in the next thread.
 

Alice

Banned
Nov 2, 2017
5,867
Scorcese is right. Coppola is right. Woo is right. And it burns you up inside. 🖤

I hope every celebrated film maker keeps chiming in and insulting the MCU. I'll see you in the next thread.
Man, the MCU is living rent free in your head and you're serving it five star dinners as well. It's kind of sad that you keep having these meltdowns because you enjoy hating something so much. Don't have anything better to do with your time? At this point you're like the Anti-MCU's Manabyte.
 

Donald Draper

Banned
Feb 2, 2019
2,361
Man, the MCU is living rent free in your head and you're serving it five star dinners as well. It's kind of sad that you keep having these meltdowns because you enjoy hating something so much. Don't have anything better to do with your time? At this point you're like the Anti-MCU's Manabyte.
Ok Boomer.
 

Mona

Member
Oct 30, 2017
23,918
i'm from cleveland so i don't know what 'cinema' is, is he talking about movies?
 

Alice

Banned
Nov 2, 2017
5,867
i'm from cleveland so i don't know what 'cinema' is, is he talking about movies?

It's easy, you just gotta follow a simple formula. "Cinema" are the movies you think about when brushing your teeth before going to bed or when you take your morning shower the day after. They touch you, stick with you, change your life.
 

Futaleufu

Member
Jan 12, 2018
2,385
The MCU has become so ubiquitous that crap like Black Panther got Academy nominations for best movie. Not surprised that so many directors are no longer hiding their disdain.
 

Armaros

Member
Oct 25, 2017
4,644
His movies may not be sublime masterpieces that speak truth to the human soul (well, Hard Boiled does.) But think about it this way: when I watch a John Woo movie, I know I'm watching a John Woo movie. Big budget superhero movies, despite recruiting promising indie film directors, subsume all individuality. From Iron Man to Infinity War, they all have the same "voice." Even the ones that are supposed to be outliers, like Black Panther or Dr. Strange, never roam from that voice.
So John woo movies have a John woo voice..

And MCU movies have a MCU voice.

But one is good, and the other is bad.???
I thought the whole point of this was the MCU is all samey and other better directors aren't, you just said the opposite.
 

Thorn

Member
Oct 25, 2017
13,745
Before Marvel kids watched Gone with the Wind and Citizens Kain. Now all they watch are popcorn flicks!
 

mjc

The Fallen
Oct 25, 2017
4,846
So tired of this shit, I don't get why film types are coming out in chorus about all of this now.
 
Oct 27, 2017
3,826
So John woo movies have a John woo voice..

And MCU movies have a MCU voice.

But one is good, and the other is bad.???
I thought the whole point of this was the MCU is all samey and other better directors aren't, you just said the opposite.
Well... yeah. The MCU is a franchise. Not a person. Marvel movies are samey because the studio mandates it. That's why Edgar Wright left Ant-Man. I think a director's voice is inherently a more valuable contribution to the medium, even if it's flawed, compared to what Marvel is doing to its properties.
 
Oct 27, 2017
3,612
These takes seem obviously to do with the conversations and thought processes of movie studios, theater owners and the like when it comes to funding such "film's films" and the creators airing their angst in the difficulty to get the funding and support of not only filming but promoting. So they fo on these tears to get noticed and vent. Seems reasonable if all they hear is "might be good for Netflix? Not sure how we can market this one in front of Super Tights 4".
 

jroc74

Member
Oct 27, 2017
14,813
Because interviewers keep asking them these questions cause they generate clicks. And Marvel fanboys are gonna keep getting mad and blowing threads like these up.

It’s a cycle
100% this.

And MCU fan boys take the bait every single time. The insecurity is sky high.
TIL having an opinion and disagreeing with other opinions = being a fanboy.....
the MCU invented blockbuster action movies.
Basically.
 

excelsiorlef

Member
Oct 25, 2017
55,586
Says the guy who ripped off Max Payne!!11

Even stole the name of his movie from the game's difficulty level
 
Oct 27, 2017
3,612
His movies may not be sublime masterpieces that speak truth to the human soul (well, Hard Boiled does.) But think about it this way: when I watch a John Woo movie, I know I'm watching a John Woo movie. Big budget superhero movies, despite recruiting promising indie film directors, subsume all individuality. From Iron Man to Infinity War, they all have the same "voice." Even the ones that are supposed to be outliers, like Black Panther or Dr. Strange, never roam from that voice.
I'd argue Homecoming does at it fits the school days rom com-type mould.
 

Donald Draper

Banned
Feb 2, 2019
2,361
I'd argue Homecoming does at it fits the school days rom com-type mould.
Nah. The amazing spider man films fit a rom com mould. The gwen and Peter relationship was by far the best parts of those films and Marc Webb served it well with the leads having chemistry.

Any romance attempts in homecoming or far from home fall completely flat and feel perfunctory at best, like a check list being ticked off.
 
Oct 27, 2017
3,612
Nah. The amazing spider man films fit a rom com mould. The gwen and Peter relationship was by far the best parts of those films and Marc Webb served it well with the leads having chemistry.

Any romance attempts in homecoming or far from home fall completely flat and feel perfunctory at best, like a check list being ticked off.
You know, I hesitated added "rom com" because I knew it didnt fit but thought my intention would be implied. I meant more like Hughes-esque as cliched as that sounds. More highschool shenanigans, less relationship drama except when reaching the climax.
 

Donald Draper

Banned
Feb 2, 2019
2,361
You know, I hesitated added "rom com" because I knew it didnt fit but thought my intention would be implied. I meant more like Hughes-esque as cliched as that sounds. More highschool shenanigans, less relationship drama except when reaching the climax.
Fair enough, I still dont see it though. It's just something that they kept repeating for PR before the film like they did 70s political thriller for winter soldier.

Its window dressing on the formula. For me anyway but to each their own.
 

Nerokis

Member
Oct 25, 2017
3,635
People keep saying, basically, that nothing’s changed and the MCU represents nothing new...but is that true?

1) massive in terms of revenue, mindshare, and theatre presence

2) production cycle that results in ~3 movies a year

3) the whole universe thing is a huge accomplishment, fun, and can even be interesting, but in combination with corporate-mandated continuity, it undoubtedly has unique creative downsides

4) it represents an ecosystem that is uniquely driven by hype and fandom, in which the most emotional moments tend to represent the realization of fan fantasies and in which a lot of people are going to subscribe to a streaming service simply to keep up with everything

5) it happens to be owned by Disney, and has contributed to the incredible amount of leverage Disney now has over the industry

Keeping all that in mind, is the MCU really just a continuation of the classic action blockbuster, or does it represent a singular force that is taking up a lot of the oxygen in the room, contributing to the homogenization of cinema, and generally having an outsize impact on the cultural landscape?

Now, while I think people are wrong to pretend the MCU is just our generation’s version of the mindless popcorn flick, I do suspect folks always looking for a good headline find it a little easy to make it the scapegoat for everything wrong with cinema. The industry has had issues for a long time, and the MCU didn’t begin the discussion around, say, the precarious future of theatres. The problems there run much deeper than the MCU, and it’s bizarre to me that we somehow get caught up in these “what is cinema?” questions instead of, like, specifically calling out Disney’s bullshit or something productive like that.

(And just to be clear, the rant above comes from someone who has seen every single MCU movie, and has tickets to watch Frozen 2 this upcoming Thursday and Star Wars IX on the 20th.)
 
Oct 27, 2017
3,612
Fair enough, I still dont see it though. It's just something that they kept repeating for PR before the film like they did 70s political thriller for winter soldier.

Its window dressing on the formula. For me anyway but to each their own.
No I get it. I haven't seen every Marvel flick but it just stands out to me as having its own flavor is all. Not having the origin story or the same overall flow and feel through the story as every other film, including my fav (Black Panther which checks off every beat, but I still appreciate it).
 

Donald Draper

Banned
Feb 2, 2019
2,361
No I get it. I haven't seen every Marvel flick but it just stands out to me as having its own flavor is all. Not having the origin story or the same overall flow and feel through the story as every other film, including my fav (Black Panther which checks off every beat, but I still appreciate it).
That's cool. Homecoming was just okay for me.

Black Panther is my personal favorite MCU film, love it. Even if it does have some of the same tropes of the genre.
 

Edgar

User requested ban
Banned
Oct 29, 2017
7,180
I really wish these directors would be far less diplomatic when asked about MCU. Imagine just taking a huge shit on marvel , the reactions would be amazing
 

ArkkAngel007

Avenger
Oct 25, 2017
3,181
There's not really all that much of a lack of that type of cinema out there. A24 for instance has been making some waves, whether in the end the audience gets or cares for the films after the fact aside. Nor is it new that blockbusters tend to dominate the box office amid plenty of other genres that I doubt those like Woo or Scorsese would consider 'true cinema.' Disney films earn a stupid amount of money, but they are still films. They are still cinema. Just the priorities are different in what they want to portray than what you'll find in an arthouse picture or even something a bit more contemporary like a Danny Boyle film.

Then again, reporters need to stop baiting with these questions.