JoJo's Bizarre Adventure ERA |OT| Stand Up and Pose

Deileon

Member
Oct 25, 2017
120
a 12 year old kid saying "im going to fuck your mom" is plausible. a 12 year old kid saying "I'm going to kill YOU" is plausible. a 12 year old wealthy and sheltered kid ACTUALLY attempting to murder a fellow classmate AND their Entire Family SOLELY because they saw him creeping on some underwear, and simultaneously threatening to ~specifically~ Rape AND Murder the mother of the child he's trying to use as a patsy: this is a cartoon. this is bugs bunny from hell.
I'm sorry, but that is simply untrue. The girl who saw what happened not only reported him to the school, but also the police—who managed to recover the bra, panties and photos that he had forced Jobin to bring him. That was his breaking point, and it presented a much more serious threat to his well-being—at least in his mind, if not in reality—than what you've conveyed. In his own words, his "whole future was screwed," and "even once [he's] an adult, everybody's still gonna remember." He felt as if he had been backed into a corner—there were tears streaming down his face as he threatened Jobin, his desperation boiling over in an emotional outburst—and he had no other option. It's clear he wasn't thinking straight; he thought that by murdering the girl, therefore eliminating the only witness, he would be exonerated, and he could return to his normal, everyday life. To me, that indicates he was experiencing a psychotic break.

If you're contending that a child of his age would never do something like that under any circumstances—or specifically for the reasons he did—then you're greatly underestimating the depths of human depravity. Children kill other children all the time. Children kill adults all the time. And they do so for stupid reasons. Why? Because most of the time, children only have stupid reasons for wanting to kill others. Their minds are underdeveloped, and something that may be inconsequential might seem like the end of the world to them. That's what happened here... though I hesitate to say his deeds were truly "inconsequential" in this case.

You should not be trying to convince me that is realistic, but instead convince me of what theme or aesthetic that unreality fits into. What are the influences, where are the homages. And I have figured it out on my own. It's a jojo take on a hyper-torrid soap opera.
See, that's where I think we disagree. I don't believe that literally every single facet of every single character has to have thematic relevance to the overarching narrative. The things we're discussing were done to flesh out characters' personalities, giving them more depth. And you're disregarding all of that in search of some "purpose" or "truth," when those moments were only meant to be viewed as relevant to those characters' (incomplete) arcs—not the story as a whole.
 
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GlassEmpires

Member
Dec 10, 2018
368
and there's the new universe equivalent of koichi and yukako's relationship in tooru. fuck that guy.

man, there's a lot of stuff to chew on in this part that could really sour it for people
 

GlassEmpires

Member
Dec 10, 2018
368
i'm coming at it from a fan of horror movies. a grotesque kill like anything out of the blob 1988 (which i recommend wholeheartedly) would be hella cool.

not that he deserves it as few horror movie victims hardly do, but the movie has been on my mind in recent weeks
 

Calvarok

Member
Oct 26, 2017
1,883
I’d like Joshu to get fugo’d but reading through araki’s guide on making manga... he clearly won’t.
oh definitely.
I'm sorry, but that is simply untrue. The girl who saw what happened not only reported him to the school, but also the police—who managed to recover the bra, panties and photos that he had forced Jobin to bring him. That was his breaking point, and it presented a much more serious threat to his well-being—at least in his mind, if not in reality—than what you've conveyed. In his own words, his "whole future was screwed," and "even once [he's] an adult, everybody's still gonna remember." He felt as if he had been backed into a corner—there were tears streaming down his face as he threatened Jobin, his desperation boiling over in an emotional outburst—and he had no other option. It's clear he wasn't thinking straight; he thought that by murdering the girl, therefore eliminating the only witness, he would be exonerated, and he could return to his normal, everyday life. To me, that indicates he was experiencing a psychotic break.

If you're contending that a child of his age would never do something like that under any circumstances—or specifically for the reasons he did—then you're greatly underestimating the depths of human depravity. Children kill other children all the time. Children kill adults all the time. And they do so for stupid reasons. Why? Because most of the time, children only have stupid reasons for wanting to kill others. Their minds are underdeveloped, and something that may be inconsequential might seem like the end of the world to them. That's what happened here... though I hesitate to say his deeds were truly "inconsequential" in this case.



See, that's where I think we disagree. I don't believe that literally every single facet of every single character has to have thematic relevance to the overarching narrative. The things we're discussing were done to flesh out characters' personalities, giving them more depth. And you're disregarding all of that in search of some "purpose" or "truth," when those moments were only meant to be viewed as relevant to those characters' (incomplete) arcs—not the story as a whole.
I don't think it would have ruined his life, but i can understand why he would think so. the fact that what he did was already a fairly extreme and elaborate crime is what led to any plausibility or that, which is just another part of the same problem. why is everything about this kid so extreme? the kid is written like an unearthly sex demon and thus not-jolyne looks 100% justified in killing him. ambiguity would have been interesting there.

I don't think i require everything about a particular work to contribute to its overall theme, but I do think it's important to recognize aspects of stories that actively detract from the legibility of their themes. you may think you don't think about those moments, but they undoubtedly have an impact on how much you get out of any given work of fiction.

even contextualizing this story as a backstabbing soap opera, I don't like that scene/flashback. it seems like a misstep. if you don't think so, cool, but I don't think you're going to convince me of that by talking about how realistic and common it is. #1, it isnt either of those things, #2, look at real world punishments for more extreme forms of sexual assault. especially if you're well off, like that kid is, the actual effective punishment is statistically rarely harsh at all, even for legal adults. I don't know exactly how the laws work in japan, but I'm pretty sure capitalism still exists there. I don't really have much interest in continuing this discussion.
 

Deileon

Member
Oct 25, 2017
120
if you don't think so, cool, but I don't think you're going to convince me of that by talking about how realistic and common it is. #1, it isnt either of those things, #2, look at real world punishments for more extreme forms of sexual assault.
What is "it," exactly? Are you talking about Jobin's bullying? If so, what about his bullying—the threats against him? Is that all? You're operating under the assumption that his bully had any intention of following through with those threats. I don't think he did. I think he was a scared little edgelord who did something incredibly vile and got in over his head—and being the type of person he was, he decided to try handling it through intimidation and fear... because that always worked for him before. I think he was having a breakdown, but I don't believe he ever intended on going through with it (the murder, or his threats).

When you say "it isn't either of those things"—either common or realistic—what are you referring to exactly? Being pressured into killing a classmate, or the various threats directed at Jobin?

Before you answer that, however, let me make one thing clear, since you seem to have misinterpreted what I'm saying: I'm not arguing that it's "realistic" (this specific scenario). At the end of the day, this is still JoJo's Bizarre Adventure we're talking about, here. I'm arguing that his behavior, whether or not it is "extreme," is grounded in reality. There is a difference. I believe that his behavior, all of it, is within the realm of possibility, and that all of it, independently, is behavior that is observed quite often (and hence is "common"). I've not once denied the fact he is Araki's personification of the bully archetype, with all that a bully is—or can be—filtered through him. My point is that none of his behavior, in isolation, is out of the ordinary, even if all of it being observed in a single person is. His behavior is grounded in reality, but he is not a "realistic" bully. I'm not contesting that. I get so caught up in discussing the minutia of every little thing, perhaps I explained my thinking poorly.

especially if you're well off, like that kid is, the actual effective punishment is statistically rarely harsh at all, even for legal adults. I don't know exactly how the laws work in japan, but I'm pretty sure capitalism still exists there. I don't really have much interest in continuing this discussion.
That's fine. You can stop at anytime; I'm not forcing you to participate in this discussion. I offered you the opportunity to continue this over PM. You continued to respond to me in this thread. I did so in kind. I apologize if I seem needlessly antagonistic.
 
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Ebrietas-

Member
Mar 2, 2019
180
and there's the new universe equivalent of koichi and yukako's relationship in tooru. fuck that guy.

man, there's a lot of stuff to chew on in this part that could really sour it for people
Tooru is building up to be one of the most memorable minor villains in part 8 though. Can't wait for the inevitable battle between him and Gappy
 

Mariip

Member
Oct 26, 2017
10,545

Rocha

Member
Jul 5, 2019
106
Brazil

Thanks to Araki we dodged two bullets, Green Abbacchio would be a dishonor to second best goth boy (Risotto is obviously in first place).
 

RedHoodedOwl

Member
Nov 3, 2017
7,586
When I heard about the Rock humans from Jojolion, I was expecting a correlation with the Pillar Men.
 
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Birdie

Member
Oct 26, 2017
5,193
It's linked to a film but Neverending Story being the ED from the Bohemian Rhapsody Arc to the end of Part 6 would be pretty perfect.
 

Mariip

Member
Oct 26, 2017
10,545

Thanks to Araki we dodged two bullets, Green Abbacchio would be a dishonor to second best goth boy (Risotto is obviously in first place).
The god has spoken, pink is the way of the righteous

(Now im kinda disappointed they wanted him blue lol)
maybe "Times Like These" by Foo Fighters in the second half of Stone Ocean
first half "Monster Hospital" by Metric


it's certainly meant to be evocative of the pillar men
y’know, i think it’s time they used a queen song...

“Virtual insanity” is also such a good fit, the song is smooth...

So many options >_<
 

Mariip

Member
Oct 26, 2017
10,545

Thanks to Araki we dodged two bullets, Green Abbacchio would be a dishonor to second best goth boy (Risotto is obviously in first place).
Im reading this interview and it appears that the 7 page muda sequence originally had 40 seconds, but Giorno’s VA said the mudas so quickly they had to speed it up so the sequence would correspond nicely to the sounds.

This guy is a fucking madman.

It was supposed to be a 1 minute of mudas but it already felt pretty long
 
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fertygo

Member
Oct 25, 2017
3,091
Im reading this interview and it appears that the 7 page muda sequence originally had 40 seconds, but Giorno’s VA said the mudas so quickly they had to speed it up so the sequence would correspond nicely to the sounds.

This guy is a fucking mandman.

It was supposed to be a 1 minute of mudas but it already felt pretty long
Is there full english interview translated somewhere?
the bit about pre-production of p5 anime started in january 2017 is interesting
 

Mariip

Member
Oct 26, 2017
10,545
Is there full english interview translated somewhere?
the bit about pre-production of p5 anime started in january 2017 is interesting
Not yet =/ I had to read it in japanese, but some bits are in the jojo wiki twitter, like how it took a month of research to make the torture dance @[email protected] there were some bits about abbachio that i really wanted to understand better because there seemed to be good stuff in there =/

was something about him being the mother of the team because he's always putting the boys on the line lol and then they discuss who would be what in family terms lol
 

Calvarok

Member
Oct 26, 2017
1,883
i watched a playthru of eyes of heaven. shout out to them weaving most of the different parts into a story that uses the big elements into a fairly sensible conclusion, and for mostly getting the character writing right.

two flaws: #1 the idea that jotaro would be better suited than giorno to fight Super Saiyan Dio is ridiculous, both thematically and power-wise. ANY action should be reverted. just because that action is rewriting reality doesnt mean its not applicable as an action, especially since its literally tied to a specific motion with your arms.

#2 the story is kind not very good. the double "the SAME STAND?" shit is too much and boring. i get they had huge constraints on what they could do, but its just... eh. also the whole reviving people thing feels disrespectful in a way? I know i know, they had to figure out a way to justify fighting the entire roster. but bruno being alive undermines the potential coolness of that scene and its not treated with the weight it deserves. same for other instances.

Anyways it's hilarious that Dio did a worse job of bringing about Heaven than Pucci did. Pucci literally did win, and he wasnt even as powerful as saiyan dio. thats another thing that feels dissonant and underwhelming. it also didnt feel like they gave him any of the deeper and subtler characterization he had in part 6, except for the small moment when he talks about how even the greatest power always has a tradeoff.
 
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Mariip

Member
Oct 26, 2017
10,545
i watched a playthru of eyes of heaven. shout out to them weaving most of the different parts into a story that uses the big elements into a fairly sensible conclusion, and for mostly getting the character writing right.

two flaws: #1 the idea that jotaro would be better suited than giorno to fight Super Saiyan Dio is ridiculous, both thematically and power-wise. ANY action should be reverted. just because that action is rewriting reality doesnt mean its not applicable as an action, especially since its literally tied to a specific motion with your arms.

#2 the story is kind not very good. the double "the SAME STAND?" shit is too much and boring. i get they had huge constraints on what they could do, but its just... eh. also the whole reviving people thing feels disrespectful in a way? I know i know, they had to figure out a way to justify fighting the entire roster. but bruno being alive undermines the potential coolness of that scene and its not treated with the weight it deserves. same for other instances.

Anyways it's hilarious that Dio did a worse job of bringing about Heaven than Pucci did. Pucci literally did win, and he wasnt even as powerful as saiyan dio. thats another thing that feels dissonant and underwhelming. it also didnt feel like they gave him any of the deeper and subtler characterization he had in part 6, except for the small moment when he talks about how even the greatest power always has a tradeoff.
These flaws happen when the people choose the wrong jojo to be the mpst popular :P
Jolyne got fucking sidelined in that final fight, too, and we could have had a jonathan x dio rematch, a giorno v dio fight.. so many people better suited for this :p
 

JadedWriter

Member
Oct 25, 2017
18,566
These flaws happen when the people choose the wrong jojo to be the mpst popular :P
Jolyne got fucking sidelined in that final fight, too, and we could have had a jonathan x dio rematch, a giorno v dio fight.. so many people better suited for this :p
I still don't know why Jotaro is the franchise mascot. He leads in the most boring part in both manga and anime form, has the most boring partners barring his grandad, has the best mom that he has no good chemistry with for the most part, has a great villain, that's at his best in every part but Jotaro's. The whole thing is just very weird.
 

Mariip

Member
Oct 26, 2017
10,545
I still don't know why Jotaro is the franchise mascot. He leads in the most boring part in both manga and anime form, has the most boring partners barring his grandad, has the best mom that he has no good chemistry with for the most part, has a great villain, that's at his best in every part but Jotaro's. The whole thing is just very weird.
The clint eastwood stoic appeal makes him go up the charts, though i honestly think he gets good in part 4-6 as a character, he only got to these parts because he qas famous in 3 :/.

He’s the franchise’s Kenshiro and Kenshiro is god damn popular =_=~~ it’s a “i know why he’s famous but he’a not my cup of tea” case
 

Iggy

Member
Oct 27, 2017
2,591
I still don't know why Jotaro is the franchise mascot. He leads in the most boring part in both manga and anime form, has the most boring partners barring his grandad, has the best mom that he has no good chemistry with for the most part, has a great villain, that's at his best in every part but Jotaro's. The whole thing is just very weird.
Why is DBZ still popular even though the manga is super inconsistent and dumb by 2019 standards?
 

Calvarok

Member
Oct 26, 2017
1,883
i have to admit, jotaro IS my favorite character, even with how much I like Giorno. And I like the idea that his stand is the most conventionally powerful because of how simple it is. It just sucks that they had such a flimsy justification for him being the one to fight, and by rehashing the original dio fight too.

I'm not mad he was used necessarily, but that he was used in an uninteresting way. And by extension that Dio was too.

I'm hoping part 9 stars a direct Jotaro analogue. It would be really interesting to see the new writing style's approach to that type of character.

EDIT: im watching the part 4 dub and just got to the first kira scene. His is the first voice I truly hate. He sounds like he should be voicing the Fun Fun Fun guy from part 8
 
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JadedWriter

Member
Oct 25, 2017
18,566
Iggy also suffered for Polnareff's sins.
This is true. Two characters die saving his life only for him to wind up inhabiting the body of a turtle as the second in command of the Italian mafia helping out the son of the guy responsible for his two friends dying, whose body was fucked up by the guy that gave Dio his stand arrows. Jojo is fucking weird.