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JOKER |OT| Viviamo in una società |SPOILERS|
- Thread starter Cpt-GargameL
- Start date
I mean, sure? But since he wasn't really a character, we don't know WHY he picks on the joker, why he cares so much about ratings, etc. Like, once again, if the movie had shown earlier the host being a jerk, making fun of people, or doing anything exploitive for ratings, then the ending would make more sense.
That would have been great!. Like when he stopped taking the medication he slowly becomes more "clear headed" and can think better, but still a nihilist and psychotic.
Not in the way of intelligence no.
Oh I agree with that. I would assume that they see tons of terrible comedians as well.
He's a late-night talk show host...making fun of people is his job as is exploiting whatever is popular at the moment.
He is not a bad person that's the point, the joker Killed him because he's crazy.
uuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuugggggggghhhhhhhhhhhhh
Yeah, he was making fun of him, but you could tell from the way they were talking backstage that Murray was treating it like Fleck was in on it, and being a good sport about it and all of that. This wasn't like a Carrie pig blood situation. It was mean but it wasn't like he was trying to ruin Fleck's life. If anything, a sane Fleck could have launched a career from that appearance.
what an amazing movie
joaquin phoenix is most definitely getting his oscar. incredible talent
joaquin phoenix is most definitely getting his oscar. incredible talent
I don't understand, do you want him to start doing math problems on the talk show? He became a different person once he turned, which was pretty much the end of the movie. He's not going to become some evil genius in 3 hours...
You dont just get smart at 40 years old because you stopped caring about social norms. This joker is a bumbling idiot who happened to get a gun and kill some people. Even if we grant that he'll stop walking into doors and generally being incompetent, no amount of growth is going to put him on par with one of the smartest people in the world which is batman.
People don't magically become smart because they decided to start killing people.
Agree 100% with this. This is the beginning of him becoming Joker. You can see he is struggling with what to do on the Murray show, where he goes from looking serious to smiling and embracing what he would become. This comes to full circle when he shoots Murray and you can see him become the Joker right then and there and embracing what the character is to be. It was a pivotal scene imho that he was very powerful. Of course at this stage he could not go toe-to-toe with Batman...he is just beginning his path of being the Joker.
I thought that he just went nuts at that moment , he always watched the show with his mother which he killed before, he always fantasized himself on the show, planned to kill himself live, but instead killed him "just because".
When did I say that? You can clearly tell during the talk show when he realizes what he is and embraces it. He seems to have a clear mind at that point. I never said he can become smart by killing people.
Math problems? you're just being dense at this point. Showing signs of basic problem solving skills =/= evil genies, The point is there isnt anything in this version of Joker that would lead one to believe that he could become an evil genius. He would have to show signs of basic problem solving skills rather running on instinct. Yes by the end he had more Joker mannerism, but didnt have any signs of him being capable of becoming an evil genius imo.
The movie only shows the host for three scenes, right? Dream sequence in the beginning, then he makes fun of the joker, then he's on the show. There is no time to develop the host as a character, or why Joker shoots him at the end.
I dont think "he's crazy" is valid bc all the previous times he's killer have been deliberate and purposeful, always against bullies. And he has that stupid fucking "we live in a society" rant before shooting him, which makes it seem like he's trying to make a point. But that rant makes way more sense if it was given to Thomas Wayne, who is built up multiple times as being a member of the elite directly making life harder for the Joker.
He got close to Thomas Wayne, escaped from the detectives, got the papers from Arkham and killed the talk show host, he's not that dumb.
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He has TWO laughs. The one with the condition he cant control and takes his breathe away and the Signature Joker laugh we find familiar though the older cartoon jokers. (he does this as a fake one when trying to fit in with people - you get that when he is at the comedy club taking down notes for his own act. he is always off the mark when queuing his laugh with the audience/joke. there are plenty more examples when he uses his fake laugh in this movie.)
It was a scene of having his laugh where he couldn't control it.
Again, this movie shows us that when he kills, he does his Dance. The music even changes too. the movie tells us what is going on. This isnt some inception type of level of layers.
and as others have pointed, through the whole movie there are cops/ambulances because of what is going on outside with the riots. bro
Those last two didnt require like any intelligence. In fact the last act was done on instinct seeing as he planned on killing himself
Joker dancing on the stairs only to be chased by the two cops tracking him down was delightful and sets off the ending which I really enjoyed.
I didn't really like the music choice for the stairs dance though, it felt a bit...contemporary? Mismatched? I imagined a more fitting piece of music in my head for it. The comic interruption was simply the best though.
I didn't really like the music choice for the stairs dance though, it felt a bit...contemporary? Mismatched? I imagined a more fitting piece of music in my head for it. The comic interruption was simply the best though.
Not related but I always liked the versions of the joker that gave batman a problem not because they are smart, but because they are nonsense.
Batman is the world's greatest detective ... dude is a being of pure logic. So a more random "lets copyright the fishes" always worked more to me than a man with a plan within a plan like ledger's joker
Movie would have been bolder if he just killed himself on stage and cut to commercial. Roll credits
I feel ya. Didn't like the pop song they used for that sequence (ba doooooo dooo HEY!), but I thought they brought it around by segueing into the orchestral score at the end of the scene. Definitely a (minor) misfire for me too though.
In my opinion Joker's craziness always triumphs pure intelligence because he is just unpredictable.
You see, you are assuming the Batman here will be a kungfu detective ninja master of everything.
But they could have made Batman a very broken man who fumbles and has billion mental issues due to childhood trauma.
I wish I knew what everybody else was seeing in this movie because it just didn't do it for me. It felt way too fake deep and tryhard to be "artsy".
The whole side plot with Zazie Beetz was treated as if it was supposed to be this big plot twist when really their time together on screen was maybe three minutes total.
It really gave me a "Wow really makes u think huh" vibe from the entire thing.
I will say thought, Phoenix did a great job with what he had to work with.
The whole side plot with Zazie Beetz was treated as if it was supposed to be this big plot twist when really their time together on screen was maybe three minutes total.
It really gave me a "Wow really makes u think huh" vibe from the entire thing.
I will say thought, Phoenix did a great job with what he had to work with.
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nah, but it would have been cute if he pretended to kill himself with a fake gun that pops out a "bang!" flag.
The low key most disturbing part of the movie for me was when Arthur shoots the two guys on the train, then points the gun at his own head real quick like he wants to kill himself over what he just did, then quickly drops that idea and follows the third guy out the train
The extremely dramatic 'booming' sound they played as they showed the scenes of Zazie Beetz not actually being real make me laugh, it was sooooo pretentious and edgy.
I agree with the music choice. I was expecting something classically Hollywood musical for that scene.
In regards to the Joker not being "smart," the key tenet of the Joker is his ability to sow chaos and manipulate people through pain. Being "smart" is not a pre-requisite and arguably makes him more interesting than the genius villainy trope.
Yeah, they had it set as if it was supposed to be some sort of Fight Club like reveal when really 90% of their scenes are like 20 seconds long with no dialog. I never felt like there was any emotional attachment to really make that part stand out. It was just kind of like "Oh, okay then" for me.
it was fight club without the build up.
What's worse; showing the flashbacks. YIKES. Should have just left it with her line in the apartment.
Exactly. I was confused what we were even supposed to feel, bc there second scene is him stalking her, and when she confronts him about it she's just like 'cool, wanna date?' Like, wtf? It was so bad.
And then to get zero payoff in the end; they just reveal it was a delusion and then do nothing with it. Maybe they cut a scene of him killing her?
My review:
-Joaquin Phoenix is absolutely phenomenal. His talent really shows in this movie, and not just in the scenes where you can see bits of the Joker, it's also evident in the some of the more subtle human scenes, like when he bathes his mother. He does such a great job of showing a man who is wounded, but has an underlying ferocity
-This movie was intense. My heart was beating incredibly hard and fast during so many moments. The ones that come to mind first are on the subway train where Arthur is attacked by those three businessmen, and of course that scene in his apartment where he confronts his former coworkers
-The cinematography is exceptional. The lighting and framing in so many scenes added so much to this movie and I felt contributed greatly to the overall story
-I loved how despite being an "origin" story, the ambiguity regarding the Joker's past is still kept in place due to being an unreliable narrator and not ever being sure that what you're seeing is the truth. One of my biggest concerns when this was first announced was that part of the allure of The Joker is that you don't really know his backstory, and it's nice to see that still remains somewhat
-I would have loved to see more of Zazie Beets and Brian Tyree Henry, but I understand that the filmmakers wanted to focus solely on Arthur
-Tying this story with that of the Wayne murders was an interesting choice. I personally can't really see this version of the Joker going toe to toe with Batman, but it was nice to see a glimmer of hope (the beginning of Batman) amidst a very dark story
Very impressed with the final product, and I do hope we see more stand alone comic book movies like this one. I personally greatly enjoy the in-universe connections of the MCU/DCEU, but this movie felt fresh being so self-contained.
-Joaquin Phoenix is absolutely phenomenal. His talent really shows in this movie, and not just in the scenes where you can see bits of the Joker, it's also evident in the some of the more subtle human scenes, like when he bathes his mother. He does such a great job of showing a man who is wounded, but has an underlying ferocity
-This movie was intense. My heart was beating incredibly hard and fast during so many moments. The ones that come to mind first are on the subway train where Arthur is attacked by those three businessmen, and of course that scene in his apartment where he confronts his former coworkers
-The cinematography is exceptional. The lighting and framing in so many scenes added so much to this movie and I felt contributed greatly to the overall story
-I loved how despite being an "origin" story, the ambiguity regarding the Joker's past is still kept in place due to being an unreliable narrator and not ever being sure that what you're seeing is the truth. One of my biggest concerns when this was first announced was that part of the allure of The Joker is that you don't really know his backstory, and it's nice to see that still remains somewhat
-I would have loved to see more of Zazie Beets and Brian Tyree Henry, but I understand that the filmmakers wanted to focus solely on Arthur
-Tying this story with that of the Wayne murders was an interesting choice. I personally can't really see this version of the Joker going toe to toe with Batman, but it was nice to see a glimmer of hope (the beginning of Batman) amidst a very dark story
Very impressed with the final product, and I do hope we see more stand alone comic book movies like this one. I personally greatly enjoy the in-universe connections of the MCU/DCEU, but this movie felt fresh being so self-contained.
Your post was responding to someone calling joker a simpleton and that he would never outsmart batman, so I inferred you were suggesting he would become smarter when you said he was going to grow. I also assumed this since youve been talking about people wanting math problems to tell if joker is smart or not. Just is a weird post to talk about growth in response to someone discussing his cognitive abilities if you weren't addressing that.
Nothing you just listed was a devised out plan by joker or anything that he even did to achieve.
He showed up to a protest that he wasn't even aware of prior to that day, and got lucky to get by cops because they started fighting with protesters. We have 4 year old children sneaking off from their parents at zoos when theyre distracted as well, does this make them hyper intelligent? No. He didn't even know Thomas Wayne was there until he saw him go to the bathroom.
Escaped from detectives? More like got totally bailed out another protest was happening which prevented the detectives from capturing him. Had there not been a subway full of people dressed as clowns just like him, he would have been caught outright. This is just another happenstance that bailed him out as opposed to him being an active agent in plotting out his escape.
Got the papers from Arkham? The dude was just going to hand them over to him prior to him acting like a psycho. If he were smart he wouldn't have claimed to be the son, or acted the way he did talking about the murders he commited. If anything he actively behaved in a way that was antithetical to achieving his goal of looking at the papers. Him grabbing them aaway from an employee who had no real concern other than doing his job is not indicative of intelligence. Lets use the child example again. Kids pull stuff out of other people's hands all the time, does this make them intelligent? No.
Killed the talk show host equals being intelligent, how? If anything it speaks to the lax security during this period which allowed him on stage with a gun. There was nothing smart about it.
Everything you listed was pure serendipity. And if thats the best you have to indicate his intelligence youre only making my argument for me.
I mean youre assuming he wont be. The movide gives no indication that batman will be anything less than the man we assume he will be. And further even if batman doesn't exist, it really doesn't change the fact that this version of the joker isn't smart. And certainly not smart enough to be the main antagonist of the greatest detective in the world.
I don't understand, why does the host need to be some fully fleshed out character? He's a talk show host, he's just doing his job. Arthur takes it far too personal and kills him. Arthur always see himself as the victim but what it takes for someone to "wrong him" is incredibly small.
The entire point of the Sophie revelation was the character coming to the realization that his perception of reality was unreliable, which is further exacerbated by the revelations he finds in his mothers file.
Ultimately, it's one of the factors that causes him to lean-into his warped perception of reality and just accept it.
Ultimately, it's one of the factors that causes him to lean-into his warped perception of reality and just accept it.
This is grounded and bleak Elseworld and Batman would be Elseworld version too, exploring Batman as a insane man in bat suit rather than a superhero doing triple spin kicks and complex detective work.
Pattinson might be normal Batman.
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Because for me the Joker killing him at the end made no sense. For the entire movie Thomas Wayne is set up as the antagonist, from multiple angles. To switch that over the the Host, there'd need to be a good reason. Saying "oh the Joker's crazy" doesnt really make sense when all his other killings have had a purpose, and he has his stupid "society" rant before killing him, seemingly indicting him before shooting him in the head.
But you dont know that. Youre assuming this based on nothing. And even so it really has nothing to do with the fact that this joker is not intelligent or capable of being the evil genius hes supposed to be. Now thats all fine since this is a different interpretation of the character but it doesn't change the underlying fact that this version of the joker isnt smart or conniving. Hes a white dude with a gun who shoots people that were mean to him.
im sorry but yall cant possibly think this is a possibility lol the film is 100 percent clear when its a vision or not, thats overthinking to the maxHmmm obviously some stuff was delusions but hadn't thought of everything being such
He has an unhealthy obsession with Murray, similar to how his mother is obsessed with Thomas Wayne. Arthur fantasizes about Murray being the father he never had. And when he sees him publicity humiliate him for his stand-up routine he targets him for revenge.
You are right that I don't know but the fact that this Joker is just a dude with a gun who went off the deep end would balance it out that Batman would be just a dude in black armor and mask lashing out for his parent's death (at least it seems so to me).
In Arthur's fantasy of being on Murray's show at the beginning of the film, imaginary Murray tells Arthur something to the effect that he'd like to have a son like him. Arthur fantasizes about Murray being a father-figure. When he betrays Arthur by mocking his stand-up he becomes a stand-in for Arthur's rage against Thomas Wayne.
Yup. Franklin Murray was just as important to the story as Thomas Wayne.
Arthur was desperately seeking a father figure in his life. That's one thing that both Franklin Murray and Thomas Wayne had in common.