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JOKER |OT| Viviamo in una società |SPOILERS|
- Thread starter Cpt-GargameL
- Start date
I think so, though it has something to say about society so perhaps that's not totally true (more a nihilistic character than Phillips himself). It's just a really sad time as a character study and a look at society. As it should be. I'm kinda curious what people coming to this as an entertainment rather than a really fucked up character movie will think. But some will clearly come away just thinking it's cool.
My review if anyone's interested (4 stars):
@14:40 LOL
There was nonetheless some disagreement on the method to the method. Before shooting his scenes, De Niro wanted the cast to do a read-through of the script, a practice he considered standard. Phoenix, however, has often disliked doing read-throughs, part of his own mercurial "let it happen" style. Recalls Phillips: "Bob called me and he goes, 'Tell him he's an actor and he's got to be there, I like to hear the whole movie, and we're going to all get in a room and just read it.' And I'm in between a rock and a hard place because Joaquin's like, 'There's no fucking way I'm doing a read-through,' and Bob's like, 'I do read-throughs before we shoot, that's what we do.' "
In De Niro's company offices in Manhattan, Phoenix mumbled his way through the script and afterward went into a corner to smoke. De Niro invited him to his office, on a different floor, to talk, but Phoenix demurred. "He's in front of Bob, and he goes, 'I can't, I gotta go home,' recalls Phillips, "because he felt sick after that read-through, he didn't like it."
Phillips urged him to come up—this was Robert De Niro, after all—and Phoenix reluctantly agreed. After they talked over a few minor issues, De Niro turned to Phoenix, took his face in his hands, and kissed him on the cheek. "It's going to be okay, bubbeleh," he said.
"It was so beautiful," says Phillips.
There was nonetheless some disagreement on the method to the method. Before shooting his scenes, De Niro wanted the cast to do a read-through of the script, a practice he considered standard. Phoenix, however, has often disliked doing read-throughs, part of his own mercurial "let it happen" style. Recalls Phillips: "Bob called me and he goes, 'Tell him he's an actor and he's got to be there, I like to hear the whole movie, and we're going to all get in a room and just read it.' And I'm in between a rock and a hard place because Joaquin's like, 'There's no fucking way I'm doing a read-through,' and Bob's like, 'I do read-throughs before we shoot, that's what we do.' "
In De Niro's company offices in Manhattan, Phoenix mumbled his way through the script and afterward went into a corner to smoke. De Niro invited him to his office, on a different floor, to talk, but Phoenix demurred. "He's in front of Bob, and he goes, 'I can't, I gotta go home,' recalls Phillips, "because he felt sick after that read-through, he didn't like it."
Phillips urged him to come up—this was Robert De Niro, after all—and Phoenix reluctantly agreed. After they talked over a few minor issues, De Niro turned to Phoenix, took his face in his hands, and kissed him on the cheek. "It's going to be okay, bubbeleh," he said.
"It was so beautiful," says Phillips.
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So what was the deal with the '60s Batmobile being filmed on set last year? Just a red herring?
Saw the film. Thought it was fine. Good not great. Definitely had the vibe of a Scorsese/arthouse imitation. A lot of beautiful cinematography + Joaquin acting and hoping it would equal depth, but sometimes it rang hollow like the director didn't quite know the message they wanted. Joker does mention society and inspires an uprising, but it's kept vague as to how real any of it is. The whole him killing a woman for rejecting him is bullshit, she's basically just a stranger who ends up as collateral due to his mental break. I guess the plot doesn't read well on paper, but it seems relatively clear that it isn't pro-violence or incel-ism or whatever. It's quite straight forwardly about mental illness and domestic/societal abuse. Also Joaquin is great even if I don't love some of the direction, it's a shame he only really gets 10 minutes as villain Joker because his whole demeanor changes and he seems like he would be a chilling villain but it's really just the ending. He's not really competing with Ledger or Nicholson in that respect.
The film got applause, which is the first time I've ever seen in a public screening. No laughs from the audience except at the sake of the character with dwarfism at the most violent point in the movie, which was an odd choice. Like it was a well done joke but uhhhhhhhhhhhh
The film got applause, which is the first time I've ever seen in a public screening. No laughs from the audience except at the sake of the character with dwarfism at the most violent point in the movie, which was an odd choice. Like it was a well done joke but uhhhhhhhhhhhh
Are they trying to get to dislike Phoenix? That article didn't do him any favours IMO. Or are they trying to do the marketing thing where they want the audience to blur between the actor and the character?
It has decent performances and some nice shots, but story-wise it's awful. It was flat and confused. There wasn't even a story, it's just a man with mental illness turned into a serial killer. So original. The only joke worth to laugh here is that "Borat" is still Todd Phillips' best work.
Wait did he actually kill his neighbor? Cause all we see is him entering her apartment, imitating putting a gun to his head and going back to his place. I mean in context it would make sense, but it felt more like him confronting his delusions before fully becoming the monster.
Also it didn't feel like an imitation as much as it felt like Scorcese was nudging Todd along as the EP and helping him get the feel of his movies as close as possible. The metaphorical use of the stairs, the dance scene in the public bathrooms, the face painting scene it was Todd through and through, but White Room blasting over the tracking shot of the Police Car was Scorsese putting his hands in the pie. Same with the Arkham breakout right after.
After the encounter with the neighbor it cuts to him in his apartment with sirens in the backgrounds and the sound of doors getting burst open and you don't see her for the rest of the film. The implication was certainly that something bad went down, and if she was alive and called the cops they would've gone to his apartment but they didn't. The other deaths in the film are explicit, but I mean, it might've been for the best to not show that one.
White Room just seemed like cribbing Scorsese. It was jarring. I guess we don't know how much input he had if anything, so who knows.
Scorsese did not work on the film. He was attached at one point, but dropped out fairly early due scheduling conflicts. I think Irishman has kept him very busy with the extensive post production.
White Room was fitting considering what the film portrays and what the lyrics described. If anything Gary Glitter on the stairs was far more jarring especially how it was supposed to be the complete opposite of the other two scenes.
I'm back. For some reason I went in not actually expecting him to be a murderer throughout the movie. Maybe one climactic bit of violence, but, uh... nope.
By big complaint is that they were so obvious with the Wayne murders. Just have a goon follow them into the alley and move on.
Mainstream audiences aren't prepared for this movie. It only got an R16 here, which I think is low. I'm actually going to have to tell my boss at work to consider not letting his 17 year old go.
edit: I think they could've been more subtle with the Tyler Durden Zazie Beetz scene. You really just needed the line she says in the moment to show he's delusional about their relationship.
By big complaint is that they were so obvious with the Wayne murders. Just have a goon follow them into the alley and move on.
Mainstream audiences aren't prepared for this movie. It only got an R16 here, which I think is low. I'm actually going to have to tell my boss at work to consider not letting his 17 year old go.
edit: I think they could've been more subtle with the Tyler Durden Zazie Beetz scene. You really just needed the line she says in the moment to show he's delusional about their relationship.
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Just got back from watching it, amazing film. Took my 18 year old and my 13 year old, they both loved it. Lol at the person above saying a 17 year old shouldn't watch. Seen more violence in a COD cutscene. It has dark and heavy themes but nothing a teenager won't be able to take in context. I didn't see him as an incel. He can't form meaningful relationships with anyone, not due to seeing himself as a beta or others as alphas
.
Film of the year for me.
but due to the history of abuse he suffered as a child and his general disconnect with reality
Film of the year for me.
Of course the maturity of teenagers varies, but the way he was talking about his kid, I'd at least tell the dad to watch it first. It's definitely an adult movie compared to the average rock 'em sock 'em violent shooty things.
edit: or the Robocops and T2s we were inappropriately watching as kids.
I just checked and Taxi Driver has an R18 here (NZ). I'd say this is slightly more brutal/unsettling.
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I agree completely on the variation in maturity, my son has friends who I would never take, though to be honest I think they'd get bored as much as anything. As far as violence goes it's mild that ugh shocking when it occurs, I think the issue is about confronting mental illness and the causes leading to it. A lot of teens won't have a clue or will have been sheltered from it. We're pretty up front with our kids but then we both have a medical background.
OP
OP
So for the few who have seen this movie... How bad is the violence? Like is it like a John Wick styled "oh shit" or more... Sadistic horrorish/torture vibe cuz.... I can't see my wife wanting to stick around if its on the darker side. She gets nightmares easy. Hell if its that bad I may not even wanna see it on the big screen either.
Sometimes even the stuff in MK11 pushes it a bit too far for me lol.
Sometimes even the stuff in MK11 pushes it a bit too far for me lol.
The pure depression and downtrodden depiction is worse than the violence . Even a most confidence man would become mad in the circumstances presented
Anyone else catch the Justin Theroux cameo as the guy on the TV while Arthur is rehearsing? Also Todd Phillips cameos as the stand-up guy at the club making the joke about cars/sex.
It's very matter-of-fact. There are two scenes that are especially violent and they don't shy away from that. One of them is prolonged but it's disturbing more due to the physicality/sound editing rather than showing blood and guts everywhere. The second is shocking more because of context and the intensity.
I'm very desensitized to violence but I thought they were very unsettling. It isn't at all John Wick-style "oh fuck yeah!" like when he throws an axe through someone's head. It feels very grounded comparatively and I think Phillips executed it very well.
There's nothing particularly cartoonish about the violence, basically.
It's very matter-of-fact. There are two scenes that are especially violent and they don't shy away from that. One of them is prolonged but it's disturbing more due to the physicality/sound editing rather than showing blood and guts everywhere. The second is shocking more because of context and the intensity.
I'm very desensitized to violence but I thought they were very unsettling. It isn't at all John Wick-style "oh fuck yeah!" like when he throws an axe through someone's head. It feels very grounded comparatively and I think Phillips executed it very well.
There's nothing particularly cartoonish about the violence, basically.
The Guardian didnt love this.
I gotta say; I mostly agree with the review. But I thought it was only really getting good near the end. It is a very slow movie for like the first hour and a half. like really really slow. I wonder how many people going in; expecting a DCEU batman type movie will respond to this.
Very slow, too many
scenes of joaquin just laughing
wait: THis is the spoilers OT so why are people using spoiler tags?
It is violent but only shocking in its jarring nature. You get shocked because of the suddeness of it but its not satanic horror/torture.
I'd say the
scissors stabbing
this review most matches my view
I also think that whenever there is an artist rendition of a movie which is polarising but have a lot of 100% or 5/5 and on opposite side a lot of 1.5 and 3/10. The film is often remembered for much longer, has a much bigger impact and the lower reviewing folks start realizing the impact of this film as a medium and quality . Right now a lot , in fact a majority of reviews are "tainted" by its "wrong" influence. I can bet that even in 6 months time when they go back to it they will change their mind, such is the quality of the acting, score, visuals and directions of a descent into chaos. This will be a character study in film schools in years to come of how to make a movie about someone's downfall
I also think that whenever there is an artist rendition of a movie which is polarising but have a lot of 100% or 5/5 and on opposite side a lot of 1.5 and 3/10. The film is often remembered for much longer, has a much bigger impact and the lower reviewing folks start realizing the impact of this film as a medium and quality . Right now a lot , in fact a majority of reviews are "tainted" by its "wrong" influence. I can bet that even in 6 months time when they go back to it they will change their mind, such is the quality of the acting, score, visuals and directions of a descent into chaos. This will be a character study in film schools in years to come of how to make a movie about someone's downfall
Can I add:
when I walked out - I said.... I dont think this GOTHAM is that crime riddeney and dark+down-troddened enough that the riots made sense.
It seemed like a normal city for the most parts. Especially during the high drone shots. The presentation of the ultra rich is no different from a theatre/town hall in any modern city.
when I walked out - I said.... I dont think this GOTHAM is that crime riddeney and dark+down-troddened enough that the riots made sense.
It seemed like a normal city for the most parts. Especially during the high drone shots. The presentation of the ultra rich is no different from a theatre/town hall in any modern city.
I liked but the movie was very predictable including the twist and the ending. I also think that they should have showed more Gotham, because the ending wasn't convincing for me at all.
I didn't think about it if he killed his neighbor or not but now that you mention it, he might have yea. I thought it was weird how they went so fast from the random where you following me? To straight up kissing instantly. It was too quick, so it just being in his head made a lot of sense. The ending shot with him on the car and the crowd of rioters surrounding him was really cool. He killed the new therapist at the end as well right? That whole scene was kinda weird to me with the scooby doo running around the halls.
And was he Tomas Wayne's son or not? Near the end he was looking at a picture that was signed TW right?
And was he Tomas Wayne's son or not? Near the end he was looking at a picture that was signed TW right?
As I said in the other thread, Joaquin is absolutely outstanding, movie is just OK.
Over the top, edgy, rhetorical... As many of these kind of movies it's too much in love with the protagonist (or maybe Phoenix himself), and looks like a justification of his actions more than an explanation.
Also kind of hard to believe Joker wasn't arrested like the day after the murder of the three dudes and that an entire city would riot like that. I actually kinda believe in the end the movie confirms this is just a fantasy.
Don't understand the incel culture arguments. This guy is not a normal incel, is a total sociopath and psychopath. But I could definitely see some people having this persona as their "idol" like it happened with Ledger's Joker.
Over the top, edgy, rhetorical... As many of these kind of movies it's too much in love with the protagonist (or maybe Phoenix himself), and looks like a justification of his actions more than an explanation.
Also kind of hard to believe Joker wasn't arrested like the day after the murder of the three dudes and that an entire city would riot like that. I actually kinda believe in the end the movie confirms this is just a fantasy.
Don't understand the incel culture arguments. This guy is not a normal incel, is a total sociopath and psychopath. But I could definitely see some people having this persona as their "idol" like it happened with Ledger's Joker.
Nothing in that movie, other than the final scene actually happened. Are people actually walking away from this not thinking it was all(not just the stuff with the neighbor) in his head?
Decent movie, great performance, really well shot. Overall I dug it. The batman universe tie-ins were the weakest stuff. Probably would of been fine without it.
I liked the music score. Eerie as heck. Though there was one part where the music selection totally fucked up the sequence for me. You could kind of tell it had Todd Phillips written all over it. It really took me out of it for a second.
I liked the music score. Eerie as heck. Though there was one part where the music selection totally fucked up the sequence for me. You could kind of tell it had Todd Phillips written all over it. It really took me out of it for a second.
All I can think when I see the posts in the non spoiler thread is oh boy. I think the hype is going to do the film a lot of disservice. I walked in with the idea that the movie will be boring for a long time - I couldn't even sit through the 2 minute trailer. Well, that trailer = the movie more or less.
I can just imagine the movie going masses going to see this and sitting down and going "where's the fucking action/batman?". Moves at a glacial pace.
We went in a group of 5. 3 mostly liked it (I was in this group) - 2 hated it because of how it tied the story to social unrest and political/economical injustice. There's something quite weird when 3 normal wealthy blokes are murdered and somehow a city riots because of it. It seems bizarre.
I also found some of the musical choices super on the nose "Smile though your heart is breaking"... sure Todd Phillips.
The scene of the mob celebrating joker at the end while visually impressive - I mean, it also sort of didnt make sense. They celebrating a murderer? All had time to watch the tv while they rioting?
I cant quite recall the scene but the one where he runs to a public toilet and then proceeds to do his little dance - that was a bit try hard for me. But the movie does this a lot.
He's not an incel. The guy is mentally damaged and the movie makes it quite clear he is the result of child abuse and brain damage. He's the joker. He's deranged. I guess here they explain his insanity.
Anyhow, I dont think the movie is deep or that interesting. Like you said, its ok.
I can just imagine the movie going masses going to see this and sitting down and going "where's the fucking action/batman?". Moves at a glacial pace.
We went in a group of 5. 3 mostly liked it (I was in this group) - 2 hated it because of how it tied the story to social unrest and political/economical injustice. There's something quite weird when 3 normal wealthy blokes are murdered and somehow a city riots because of it. It seems bizarre.
I also found some of the musical choices super on the nose "Smile though your heart is breaking"... sure Todd Phillips.
The scene of the mob celebrating joker at the end while visually impressive - I mean, it also sort of didnt make sense. They celebrating a murderer? All had time to watch the tv while they rioting?
I cant quite recall the scene but the one where he runs to a public toilet and then proceeds to do his little dance - that was a bit try hard for me. But the movie does this a lot.
He's not an incel. The guy is mentally damaged and the movie makes it quite clear he is the result of child abuse and brain damage. He's the joker. He's deranged. I guess here they explain his insanity.
Anyhow, I dont think the movie is deep or that interesting. Like you said, its ok.
I don't think that was real. But that's just my take on it.
Arthur talking to a therapist in Arkham.
they showed how the riot also led to the killing of the waynes. How would any of it not be real?
"Or something. It's hard to say if the muddle "Joker" makes of itself arises from confusion or cowardice, but the result is less a depiction of nihilism than a story about nothing. The look and the sound — cinematography by Lawrence Sher, cello-heavy score by Hildur Gudnadottir — connote gravity and depth, but the movie is weightless and shallow. It isn't any fun, and it can't be taken seriously. Is that the joke? "
The riots happened and the Waynes were killed. But pretty much anything happening to him throughout most of the movie is kind of up for interpretation. He's the unreliable narrator.
ARMOND White has already said this movie sucks. So everything else is moot
Whew, that George Remus/Goran death was brutal. =O
I am, of course, referring to actor Glenn Fleshler.
I am, of course, referring to actor Glenn Fleshler.
Because Arthur clearly hated Thomas Wayne. Why wouldn't his made up ass story result in him and dying. It's the fact that it is all made up and we don't actually learn anything about Arthur's actual circumstances that makes the movie feel so pointless in the end.
Or... as people said... joker doesn't have an origin story , like the TDK joker he was making things up.
Remember in TDK when Joker told how he got his scars? This might be it in 2 hour format
It's a lot like when you know someone is a compulsive liar and they are making up a story about an event they know about or made up: it sounds weird. Arthur probably just made up or straight up doesn't know exactly how it all came together.
I would argue that reading would take the movie out of the pointless pile and place it directly into the stupid one.
Phoenix was phenomenal but the story was pretty slow
Legit everything could've been fake 👀
Dummy Thomas Wayne not having security is his own fault.
Legit everything could've been fake 👀
Dummy Thomas Wayne not having security is his own fault.
The Wayne murder being removed from the Joker tells me there's no reason not to take the third act as factual. He just got arrested some time in that fade to black.
There probably won't be a sequel, so 'what really happened' don't really matter.
There probably won't be a sequel, so 'what really happened' don't really matter.
Amazing film. I expected it to be good but this was on another level. Not sure what to think about the situation with his mom. Was she actually lying or was Thomas just covering it up?
She was not lying she was delusional, fleck read the files where he also finds out he was sexually and physically abused as a child by his mother and boyfriend