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JOKER |OT| Viviamo in una società |SPOILERS|

JDSpades

Member
Oct 25, 2017
3,291
Arthur was never using anyone's misfortune to his own advantage. The seeds of discord were already sown before he became joker. Getting propped up was happenstance, not something of his own doing. There wasnt a single thing he accomplished in this movie that didn't happen by pure coincidence and flat out luck.

I'm not talking about fighting. Joker, historically, isn't someone that can go toe to toe with batman. I'm talking plotting, planning, and generally being someone on par with one of the greatest intellectuals intellectuals in the DC universe. And this version of the joker isn't someone that I would even consider competent, let alone intelligent. Ledger joker was incredibly smart, unbelievably so but at least they portrayed him as having the intellect to be able to push batman and the city as a whole. Arthur on the other hand had everything happen to him, never made any smart decisions on his own, and happened to be doing this during a time the people of gotham were in turmoil. He didn't plan anything, he just lucked out with everything. Batman would kick his ass immediately.


100%. Its literally taxi driver just with joker. (and not anywhere near as good either)
Ledger Joker wasn’t really smart at all outside of your typical “I’m a comic book villain and good at causing mischief”. He absolutely fell apart the moment his world view was challenged. I mean, what dumbass has absolutely no defense of their beliefs once challenged? He crumbles apart in an instant.

Arthur isn’t at a point where he could take on Batman, and Batman himself is still a child at this point in time. Joker is clearly a completely different character than Arthur in the movie though. Looking at “Arthur” as Joker isn’t really fair. We don’t see much of this Joker, and what we do see is literally the first day of the character’s existence.

and yeah, Arthur/Joker gets credit for sparking the riots. He doesn’t care about anything or anyone when he’s on the talk show (besides himself), yet he throws out the speech about rich vs. poor, kills the host, and starts the riot. Despite his internal conflict and selfishness he’s able to put on a great “act” and get everyone behind him. Which is like, a huge part of Ledger’s Joker.
 
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Bad Vibes Dio

The Fallen
Apr 13, 2018
6,613
Depends on what you consider smart JD.

I would never consider someone that has the manipulative pull that Ledger's Joker has to be an idiot. Far far from it actually.
 

jviggy43

Member
Oct 28, 2017
15,664
Ledger Joker wasn’t really smart at all outside of your typical “I’m a comic book villain and good at causing mischief”. He absolutely fell apart the moment his world view was challenged. I mean, what dumbass has absolutely no defense of their beliefs once challenged? He crumbles apart in an instant.

Arthur isn’t at a point where he could take on Batman, and Batman himself is still a child at this point in time. Joker is clearly a completely different character than Arthur in the movie though. Looking at “Arthur” as Joker isn’t really fair. We don’t see much of this Joker, and what we do see is literally the first day of the character’s existence.

and yeah, Arthur/Joker gets credit for sparking the riots. He doesn’t care about anything or anyone when he’s on the talk show (besides himself), yet he throws out the speech about rich vs. poor, kills the host, and starts the riot. Despite his internal conflict and selfishness he’s able to put on a great “act” and get everyone behind him. Which is like, a huge part of Ledger’s Joker.
Clearly I'm talking about the ability to outsmart your opponents in terms of pulling a plan off so idk why youre trying to make this about being ideologically beaten. If ledger joker was impervious to being ideologically beaten he never would have lost given that he was always too smart to be caught unless he wanted to be and batman outright refused to kill him. Further he didn't fall apart, he even specifically looks right into the camera and says "you think this was my plan?" before revealing his actual shot was Harvey. So even by your own argument he didn't fall apart given that the boats weren't even his main prerogative. He straight up forced batman to become a villain in order to protect harvey. But back to my actual argument, I'm talking about the ability to craft a plan and execute it. Arthur never did anything close to this, everything that he did was AFTER he got incredibly lucky by happenstance.

Arthur can have as long as he wants and that changes nothing about the fact that his cognitive abilities are never going to be on par with what would be necessary to confront batman or the city as a whole. Hes just not smart. He doesn't even have agency. He just has stuff happen to him over and over again.

Arthur gave that speech for himself. He even specifically said hes not part of the riots or protests and has no political message. Because hes too dumb to understand whats going on. And that speech he gave wasn't even his own either. It was just repeating the same lines he had been fed from other characters throughout the entire movie. Arthur is a pathetically weak joker. Thats fine, its a different interpretation of the character. But that doesn't change the fact that this version would never be anything but a one off issue that Batman dispatches immediately and we never hear from again. Hes a dumb white guy with a gun.
 
Oct 26, 2017
10,860
Arthur is smart. He just doesn't plan. I am sure he will have a goal eventually but at this point it was him figuring out who he is. His intelligence and confidence was 100% on when he was running from the cops just befoee the Murray show. Anyone expecting a galaxy brain chess master should talk to Dr. Strange instead.
 

Lady Murasaki

Scary Shiny Glasses
Member
Oct 25, 2017
608
Saw the movie yesterday. I was thinking specifically about the photo of the young Penny with the "TW" initials on it.

1 - It could be simply a fake.
2 - It could be an autograph. Thomas certainly was used to this and even offered it to Arthur when they were in the bathroom. But why autograph a foto of her and not one of him or of them together in a "professional way"? And the phrase? “Love your smile, – TW”.
3 - It could be real, a token of affection between lovers and the adoption is a cover-up, and maybe part of her mental diagnostic too.

Also the neighbor situation too (Sophie). I think this is a bit on the side that he didn't kill her, but after all that stuff that went down in his apartament and nothing happened (accidental shot, huge fights with his mother, the cops didn't go to his apartament even when they were investigating the murders of the three rich kids and he was a suspect etc) maybe is not that much of a reach that it could take a while before anyone noticed that a single mother and her daughter, poor, that lived in one of the poorest parts of the city, were missing?
 

Vampirolol

Member
Dec 13, 2017
2,171
We're weirdly close to slasher-movie logic here though, whereby nearly moral transgression somehow merits murder. "Ahhh, those horny teens shouldn't have been out there banging in the forest in the first place."

Are some bad things revealed about his mother? I mean, yeah they kinda have to give him some reason or plausible motivation to kill her. At the end of the day he still murdered an elderly woman as she slept, which most people will interpret as pretty vicious.

What struck me as kinda lazy or cowardly is that she's never really given the opportunity to explain or defend herself. The writers just put her in a coma so she can be quietly extinguished without much incident.
They do this with every single character. This movie was written by the Joker, or a 14 years old who had just been dumped by the partner. It's like a piano with a single note, it's a flat line.
It was like having someone shouting "Society sucks! People love violence!" in front of you for hours. And I didn't even see the message "Fund mental health", since the therapist was a fucking incompetent piece of shit from the beginning. Also the movie seems to be set in a distant past so I was like "Yeah, mental health issues were treated badly in the 70's. Thank god it's improving now".
Becuase Arthur wouldn't have been treated like that in any civilized place in the real world.
 
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sappyday

The Fallen
Oct 27, 2017
1,060
I'm enjoying reading y'all's reviews. It's interesting to see what people have to say. Still love the movie and have seen it twice. You can debate the movie and I'll definitely try (I ain't the smartest but I know where my feelings lie) even though I won't be able to put up some good arguments especially when it comes to the actual filmmaking (this is Phillips first amazing film, although I do love the first Hangover). But still, I'ma go watch it a third time tomorrow so and there some scenes I'm excited to still see.
 

Rare Opiums

Member
Oct 28, 2017
260
I read somewhere that this is exactly the case. Todd Phillips wanted to make a movie that tackles the themes of the movie, WB wanted a Joker movie, and ta-da—JOKER is born.
Todd Phillips was basically trolling here, specifically to people who wants to believe this movie as the new Citizen Kane of comic book movie.

Sure, it's a well made movie. But putting Joker's coat of paint made this movie generated hype and discussions much more than it should be. If it was about a mentally ill white guy turned into serial killer, this thread would last less than 10 pages. I even suspect some of his recent comments was deliberately intended to create headlines.

I'm not really suprised though, considering this movie is directed by the same director of Borat and Hangover.

Arthur Fleck. A. Fleck. Affleck? Yeah, you got me good, Todd.

Joaquin Phoenix may get nom for this, but the true Joker is comfortably smilling behind the camera.
 

31GhostsIV

Member
Oct 26, 2017
2,143
I watched this last night and I didn't think it was particularly good. It was a hodgepodge of re-hashed 80's vigilante movies and took it self way too seriously.

The part that surprised me the most though? I really didn't like Phoenix as Joker. Just a total miss for me.
 

sappyday

The Fallen
Oct 27, 2017
1,060
yo why the fuck he go in the fridge
Cause he's crazy and just had his world view shattered by Thomas Wayne. Not sure how a mentally insane would react to something like that. But he took it as the loneliest place he can be for a moment. I've had moments where I would want to swallow in just loneliness after some depressing shit that has happened to me in my life. That's how I saw it, it's like a 1 minute scene, doesn't have to be anything deeper.
 

Illithid Dude

Member
Oct 26, 2017
1,123
i think it's because todd phillips liked the pretty match cut with the joker leaning on the counter and goddamnit it he's making ART and if he's making ART he better have some match cuts to show how goddamn TALENTED a FILMMAKER he is i mean he won the goddamn GODLEN LION so don't you DARE disrespect him
 

Donald Draper

Banned
Feb 2, 2019
2,361
i think it's because todd phillips liked the pretty match cut with the joker leaning on the counter and goddamnit it he's making ART and if he's making ART he better have some match cuts to show how goddamn TALENTED a FILMMAKER he is i mean he won the goddamn GODLEN LION so don't you DARE disrespect him
Imagine being this bitter lmao.
 

Vampirolol

Member
Dec 13, 2017
2,171
i think it's because todd phillips liked the pretty match cut with the joker leaning on the counter and goddamnit it he's making ART and if he's making ART he better have some match cuts to show how goddamn TALENTED a FILMMAKER he is i mean he won the goddamn GODLEN LION so don't you DARE disrespect him
*5 minutes slowmo scene of Joaquin Phoenix doing crazy stuff*
 

boi

Member
Nov 1, 2017
994
Who else thinks this Joker is super dumb? He won’t survive a day in the Nolanverse for example. I don’t see him coming up with the tricks and traps like he does in TDK. He’s too fucked up for that as a person and doesn’t show any planning or organisational skills.
 

sappyday

The Fallen
Oct 27, 2017
1,060
Who else thinks this Joker is super dumb? He won’t survive a day in the Nolanverse for example. I don’t see him coming up with the tricks and traps like he does in TDK. He’s too fucked up for that as a person and doesn’t show any planning or organisational skills.
Yea I don't think he would. Something about Ledger's joker is overall more crazy. But this is just a different take and an in context if its own world it fits fine.

edit: but also don't forget the time gap and experience. you're comparing a joker at his lowest and inexperienced as the joker, to that of one who's already been in operation for a while and also has been able to monitor Batman's every move. Joker hasn't always been smart, just clever and chaotic.
 
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Peek-a-boo!

Member
Oct 30, 2017
1,766
Woodbridge
On one hand, I thought it was superbly filmed (captured that grimy 70’s look really well), is a slow-burn descent into ‘meeting’ Joker and Joaquin Phoenix single handedly carried the film all by himself.

And as a fan of Atlanta, I loved seeing the representative characters!

On the other hand, I didn’t really enjoy the film...

Similar to films like Requiem For A Dream, Kill List and Funny Games, I appreciate what those films are striving for, in that they not only end on an uncomfortable note, but are quite difficult to watch.

Whilst ‘Joker’ doesn’t quite make me feel as bad as those aforementioned films, the similarity to themes today (the rich perching themselves above everybody else, mental health illnesses and a divided society) does make for a rather joyless film to endure, but not necessarily in a bad way, of course, as the film has set out to do exactly what it wants to achieve.

Maybe it is just me, but I wish the film ended just as we saw the Arthur smile that ‘Joker’ smile instead of
seeing him in Arkham Asylum. And I really dislike leaving the cinema after seeing a brilliant bright white scene for a couple of minutes! Makes your eyes go funny.
 

excelsiorlef

Member
Oct 25, 2017
40,821
We're weirdly close to slasher-movie logic here though, whereby nearly moral transgression somehow merits murder. "Ahhh, those horny teens shouldn't have been out there banging in the forest in the first place."
That's basically how I felt tbh

Joker's targets basically felt borderline out of like a Martin Scorsese Cosplay Friday the 13th.
 

excelsiorlef

Member
Oct 25, 2017
40,821
Less sympathetic if you buy into his stuff. He has no reason to kill Randall or Murray. The wall street guys can be considered self-defense (except the last one). His mom was never really a sympathetic character. She didn't really care for him as she even laws down lowkey jabs constantly, the most notable one being he cannot be a comedian because he isn't funny. It's obvious in her delusional old life that she only cared for Thomas. She even brings up family and all this, but that's the narcissism for her to be in Thomas' life. She's using Arthur as a pawn to guilt Thomas, which is pretty much confirmed during the scene where she is being interrogated.
Randall was cruel to him and to his little person coworker and set him up and got him fired.

Murray was just putting him on to demean and debase him.

We're talking about a crazy popular comic book villain. If you give him assholes for targets and have him outright spare nice people... it's not a good receipe imo.

The movie cares too much about Joker, he basically feels like a slasher monster in the late stages of a series, where few give two shits about who he kills.

That's why I think the film is relatively timid and safe. He doesn't truly target "good" people ever, other than maybe the doctor at the end who dies off screen.
 
Oct 26, 2017
2,011
I don't see the problem with him killing the people that did him wrong. This is a more human Joker that has stopped denying himself and stopped caring about consequences. Having specific targets seems right.

But we see in the last shot that he's gone beyond that with the bloody footprints. Perhaps he kills to entertain himself now, or the barometre he uses to measure who needs to die has changed so that it now encompasses a much wider range.

This Joker is clearly an evolving process.
 

Vampirolol

Member
Dec 13, 2017
2,171
I don't see the problem with him killing the people that did him wrong. This is a more human Joker that has stopped denying himself and stopped caring about consequences. Having specific targets seems right.

But we see in the last shot that he's gone beyond that with the bloody footprints. Perhaps he kills to entertain himself now, or the barometre he uses to measure who needs to die has changed so that it now encompasses a much wider range.

This Joker is clearly an evolving process.
It's clear that killing has a relaxing effect on him, since he stops having that compulsive laughing. But I don't see much of an arc for him, he looked far gone from the beginning of the movie. When he kills those 3 I had the feeling he really WANTED to do it, and in fact his immediate reaction is the one of a killer, not someone who is defending himself.
 

Moonkid

Avenger
Oct 25, 2017
2,850
Alright maybe my reading of his mother's character is off but the flashback which revealed the abuse Arthur suffered through just made the whole situation more tragic rather than straightforwardly portraying her as a villain. She was mentally ill to the point that she had no grasp on reality and seemed to have been in an abusive relationship herself. Obviously this doesn't absolve her from the things she did but Arthur killing her showed how the destructive cycle of abuse continues which I actually found compelling.

Not much else resonated with me to be honest. It ended up being oddly conservative, touching on moral panics you find in cities relating to the destitute.
 
Oct 26, 2017
2,011
It's clear that killing has a relaxing effect on him, since he stops having that compulsive laughing. But I don't see much of an arc for him, he looked far gone from the beginning of the movie. When he kills those 3 I had the feeling he really WANTED to do it, and in fact his immediate reaction is the one of a killer, not someone who is defending himself.
I saw it as an impulsive reaction to being beaten. Up to a point (1 and 2) it was even justifiable, but it seems he realised pretty quickly what he got from killing them and so hunted the third down.

I don't think the Joker needs an arc beyond the ending. He is what he is at that point.
 

Yahtzee!

Member
Nov 12, 2017
344
Just saw it, gee what a great feel. The movie constantly had me readjusting myself just because of how uncomfortable it was. Last scene in the talk show was so good and different.

Only thing I didn't like was the flashbacks of Arthur not being with his love interest AFTER they revealed that she didn't know who he was. Felt like Todd Phillips was going to come into the theatre and ask me if I understood the scene
 

sappyday

The Fallen
Oct 27, 2017
1,060
Randall was cruel to him and to his little person coworker and set him up and got him fired.

Murray was just putting him on to demean and debase him.

We're talking about a crazy popular comic book villain. If you give him assholes for targets and have him outright spare nice people... it's not a good receipe imo.

The movie cares too much about Joker, he basically feels like a slasher monster in the late stages of a series, where few give two shits about who he kills.

That's why I think the film is relatively timid and safe. He doesn't truly target "good" people ever, other than maybe the doctor at the end who dies off screen.
This is one thing I agree with. Arthur/Joker doesn't target anyone that isn't good to him in a sense. Every person he kills did something slightly wrong to him, but in his mind it doesn't come off as small offense (whether from the 3 wall street guys to Murray, who he admired, but then reworked his mind into thinking was someone awful). But I attribute to this being his origin story and not his Prince of Crime of story, where I'm sure he would start targeting innocents and anyone else that doesn't come out in the forward end of his mental plans, but you NEED Batman for that type of story, so I understand why they went with a kid bruce in this specific story.

However, this doesn't take away from the disturbance of it all, mainly cause of JP's performance. Still it belongs to the movie's credit despite people wanting only to shine on that and nothing else.
 

boi

Member
Nov 1, 2017
994
Yea I don't think he would. Something about Ledger's joker is overall more crazy. But this is just a different take and an in context if its own world it fits fine.

edit: but also don't forget the time gap and experience. you're comparing a joker at his lowest and inexperienced as the joker, to that of one who's already been in operation for a while and also has been able to monitor Batman's every move. Joker hasn't always been smart, just clever and chaotic.
The time gap is even weirder to me.

Joker is like, what? 40 minimum here, ok maybe 35. Bruce is 12?

By the time Bruce is full Batman (something in his thirties) Joker should be almost 60 according to this movie.
 

MillionIII

Member
Sep 11, 2018
3,270
Who else thinks this Joker is super dumb? He won’t survive a day in the Nolanverse for example. I don’t see him coming up with the tricks and traps like he does in TDK. He’s too fucked up for that as a person and doesn’t show any planning or organisational skills.
He’s the Joker for like a day, what makes him dumb exactly?
 

sappyday

The Fallen
Oct 27, 2017
1,060
The time gap is even weirder to me.

Joker is like, what? 40 minimum here, ok maybe 35. Bruce is 12?

By the time Bruce is full Batman (something in his thirties) Joker should be almost 60 according to this movie.
Umm no not really. There are different takes of Batman throughout the comic's history. Some young; like the upcoming Pattison Batman, who's probably going to be post 21 but still early 25; but then you got some older (like Affleck or Dark Knight Returns). But either way age has never mattered in terms on who faces who, but more on how experienced they are. Either way, Joker has/or will be a main part of Batman's story since they're pretty much counter opposites.

To me, this Joker looked probably close to 40, but since he was so skinny, depressed (this will sometimes makes you look work in appearance), and probably didn't eat much (we literally see him eat nothing, but that's a small detail I noticed), and based on a couple of scenes, he just has a weird physique to his that made him seem older. Either way it doesn't really matter cause this (and a lot of other Batman adaptions, whether games, movies, and most importantly comics) isn't the first time we've seen them change the storyline to fit the story foremost.

If they ever do a sequel (which IMO they will never do) then yea it's possible that the Batman of this universe will be a lot younger than the almost 60 year old Joker. This wouldn't really change anything would it? Bruce will eventually grow up the Bats we sort of know (different itterations), but that would have given the Joker almost 10-13 years to do what he truly wants in this Gotham.
 
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scabobbs

Member
Oct 28, 2017
1,137
Never do a sequel? Movies going to make them a fortune. They'll send truckloads of cash to Todd Phillips and Joaquin's homes to and convince them to make another (or two, or three). Joaquin has already said he's not opposed to revisiting the character.

I thought the film was brilliant. The last 45 minutes or so were so captivating I couldn't look away, was super anxious but still enjoyed the hell out of the payoff. Great ending.
 

Rockman ZX

Member
Oct 25, 2017
932
Enjoyed the movie, I don't think is a masterpiece like some people are saying but definitely is a fantastic movie. Specially enjoyed Joaquin's acting and also the dark atmosphere.
 

SweetPeaWT

Member
Oct 27, 2017
310
Did anyone else find it far fetched that someone akin to Jay Leno or Johnny Carson found footage of an up and coming comedian and played on his show to make fun of him?

Maybe this sort of thing happened in the early 80s or late 70s? That played a role in Arthur's demise, but it just seemed so ridiculous to me. I know there have been pretty trash shows like Jerry Springer, but those guests were there by their own free will.

Phoenix carried this movie. His performance was mesmerizing, no question, but I just don't see how this movie holds a candle to The Dark Knight. I could rewatch The Dark Knight for years to come. I can't say I want to see this movie again. I think it's an ok film with an amazing performance. Just my opinion though. Glad others enjoyed it more.
 

m23

Member
Oct 25, 2017
3,169
Never do a sequel? Movies going to make them a fortune. They'll send truckloads of cash to Todd Phillips and Joaquin's homes to and convince them to make another (or two, or three). Joaquin has already said he's not opposed to revisiting the character.

I thought the film was brilliant. The last 45 minutes or so were so captivating I couldn't look away, was super anxious but still enjoyed the hell out of the payoff. Great ending.
Yes, the second half of the movie had me on the edge of my seat the whole time. It was great.
 

BlackFyre

Member
Oct 27, 2017
2,389
Who else thinks this Joker is super dumb? He won’t survive a day in the Nolanverse for example. I don’t see him coming up with the tricks and traps like he does in TDK. He’s too fucked up for that as a person and doesn’t show any planning or organisational skills.
While I understand this is the origins of Joker, I would have like to see more of that. He seems to get lucky as a result of circumstance.
 

Solid SOAP

Member
Nov 27, 2017
1,080
Who else thinks this Joker is super dumb? He won’t survive a day in the Nolanverse for example. I don’t see him coming up with the tricks and traps like he does in TDK. He’s too fucked up for that as a person and doesn’t show any planning or organisational skills.
Would Nolan's Batman survive in the comic book universe alongside Superman and Green Lantern?

Idk man, this movie is its own thing. It should be discussed as such, imo.
 

Abraxas

Member
Feb 16, 2018
108
Dallas
What was the point of the refrigerator scene? It's the one scene I've been wondering about since seeing it a few days ago.

My first thought was maybe they were too poor for air conditioning and he had to cool down... I dunno
 

Vampirolol

Member
Dec 13, 2017
2,171
What was the point of the refrigerator scene? It's the one scene I've been wondering about since seeing it a few days ago.

My first thought was maybe they were too poor for air conditioning and he had to cool down... I dunno
Isolation. It's one of the few scenes not in-your-face in the whole movie.