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JOKER |OT| Viviamo in una società |SPOILERS|

Prine

Member
Oct 25, 2017
5,915
What was the point of the refrigerator scene? It's the one scene I've been wondering about since seeing it a few days ago.

My first thought was maybe they were too poor for air conditioning and he had to cool down... I dunno
Symbolic of his transformation, a cocoon in which he emerges as his final self. That or he kills himself and imagines what comes next? As we see throughout the film, he's resigned to live in his own world and is unable to distinguish reality from thought.
 

sibarraz

Avenger
Oct 27, 2017
9,472
Are not those old refrigerators impossible to open from the inside?

Also, gotta admit, was laughing at the talk show scene when Joker started talking about society, since it reminded me of all those good memes
 

LGHT_TRSN

Member
Oct 25, 2017
3,102
What was the point of the refrigerator scene? It's the one scene I've been wondering about since seeing it a few days ago.

My first thought was maybe they were too poor for air conditioning and he had to cool down... I dunno
He was trying to escape from reality. He climbs in there directly after showing up in Sophies apt and receiving a swift reality kick in the nuts.
 

Hystzen

Member
Oct 25, 2017
912
Manchester UK
The whole age situation could easily be fixed and retconned.

the ending in Asylum happens at “modern” times Arthur has heard and read stories about the events we saw in film and it all one grand delusion of his mind taking all the events on as his memories.

heck I bet it killed a WB exec to not have a credit scene be Robert Patterson Bruce looking at video of Joker in hallway or be on other side glass during the scenes in asylum
 

Azzanadra

Member
Oct 25, 2017
2,304
Canada
What are y'all thoughts on the very last scene? With Joker being chased back and forth by the orderlies... seemed kind of random, but the back and forth through the hallway had a comedic effect.

Only interpretation I could have is that they are going "round and round", alluding to the Joker's future as being trapped in this endless cat-and-mouse game in which we're not quite sure who is doing the running and who is doing the chasing.
 

Orb

Member
Oct 27, 2017
6,582
USA
Unless the movie changed really significantly since test screenings, I honestly don't know why people thought this movie was going to incite some kind of incel rebellion or whatever
 

Gustaf

Member
Oct 28, 2017
6,132
Do you have something of value to say or are you just shit posting? I'm not the only one here making this argument. If you have a point to make actually make it or else I'll just put you on ignore and be done with it.
you saying that "this" joker wont last 5 minutes against batman is stupid man, really fucking stupid.

considering that he still has 20 years to grow as a joker.
 

jviggy43

Member
Oct 28, 2017
14,525
you saying that "this" joker wont last 5 minutes against batman is stupid man, really fucking stupid.

considering that he still has 20 years to grow as a joker.
I addressed this on the previous page. IF you want to address the points I made do so. Continuing to post nothing to back up your argument other than calling my argument stupid without addressing why is wasting my time (or even actually making an argument for yourself which youve yet to do). Ive elaborated on my points several times now. Either engage in the conversation or go on ignore. I'm not going to keep responding to drivel with nothing to say.
 
Oct 25, 2017
3,103
Just saw it, gee what a great feel. The movie constantly had me readjusting myself just because of how uncomfortable it was. Last scene in the talk show was so good and different.

Only thing I didn't like was the flashbacks of Arthur not being with his love interest AFTER they revealed that she didn't know who he was. Felt like Todd Phillips was going to come into the theatre and ask me if I understood the scene
A little foggy but I think that was more Arthur realizing she wasn't there and not really meant for us.
 
Oct 26, 2017
9,941
Randall was cruel to him and to his little person coworker and set him up and got him fired.

Murray was just putting him on to demean and debase him.

We're talking about a crazy popular comic book villain. If you give him assholes for targets and have him outright spare nice people... it's not a good receipe imo.

The movie cares too much about Joker, he basically feels like a slasher monster in the late stages of a series, where few give two shits about who he kills.

That's why I think the film is relatively timid and safe. He doesn't truly target "good" people ever, other than maybe the doctor at the end who dies off screen.
Good cannot be reasonably defined
 
Dec 22, 2018
271
I addressed this on the previous page. IF you want to address the points I made do so. Continuing to post nothing to back up your argument other than calling my argument stupid without addressing why is wasting my time (or even actually making an argument for yourself which youve yet to do). Ive elaborated on my points several times now. Either engage in the conversation or go on ignore. I'm not going to keep responding to drivel with nothing to say.
I think one thing we need to keep in mind is that Arthur was heavily, heavily medicated at the start of the film. Based on his conversation with the social worker, he was taking high doses of at least seven different medications. It’s not uncommon at all for medications to have serious side-effects that impair you cognitive abilities, make your perception of reality more cloudy/ muddled, and make it more difficult for you to express yourself. Even more so when you’re mixing a ton of medications at once.

Arthur’s metamorphosis into the Joker doesn’t occur until he’s gone cold turkey. He even comments on how things have never been clearer to him after he’s off the medications. In the last 20 minutes of the film he starts exhibiting more social awareness (e.g. realizing instantly that Murray is only inviting him on the talk show to mock him), and a certain level of cunning when in tense situations (e.g. sparking a fight on the subway to make things too chaotic for the detectives to apprehend him, and stealing a mask to blend in with the crowd). He also clearly gains more confidence at the end.

I dunno. He’s certainly not an intellectual titan, but I don’t feel like we can fairly evaluate him based on what we saw in this movie, which was him while he’s heavily medicated and at one of the lowest, most depressing, and most emotionally volatile points in his life. He has a lot of potential to grow as a schemer and refine his style.
 

LGHT_TRSN

Member
Oct 25, 2017
3,102
The argument that this Joker would not be a good foil to Batman is a bit reductive. We don't really get to see any development of the Joker, only his development into the Joker persona.

I would be all for a sequel in which we get to see this new personality develop and how he hones his skills in the art of manipulation and seeding chaos. I have no trouble imagining this Joker transforming into, say, the Joker that Heath Ledger presents us with. We just don't get that opportunity in this film.
 
Dec 22, 2018
271
The argument that this Joker would not be a good foil to Batman is a bit reductive. We don't really get to see any development of the Joker, only his development into the Joker persona.

I would be all for a sequel in which we get to see this new personality develop and how he hones his skills in the art of manipulation and seeding chaos. I have no trouble imagining this Joker transforming into, say, the Joker that Heath Ledger presents us with. We just don't get that opportunity in this film.
I agree. He’s socially awkward, has delusions of grandeur, and is emotionally unstable . . . But none of those things means he’s unintelligent. He can definitely grow.
 

Durden

Avenger
Oct 25, 2017
3,784
What the hell was Arthur even doing with that shoe when it's that long shot of his back straining with it? Was he just stretching it out?
 
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Cpt-GargameL

Cpt-GargameL

Member
Oct 27, 2017
6,407
The argument that this Joker would not be a good foil to Batman is a bit reductive. We don't really get to see any development of the Joker, only his development into the Joker persona.

I would be all for a sequel in which we get to see this new personality develop and how he hones his skills in the art of manipulation and seeding chaos. I have no trouble imagining this Joker transforming into, say, the Joker that Heath Ledger presents us with. We just don't get that opportunity in this film.
.

While other Jokers have had years of experience under their belts, this one JUST started so to dismiss him all together is a bit disingenuous.
 
Sep 17, 2018
59
French critics (4/5 from Cahiers. Not bad)


Argentine review aggregator (mostly known for the "Apichatpoll" Cannes critics grid)
 

jviggy43

Member
Oct 28, 2017
14,525
I think one thing we need to keep in mind is that Arthur was heavily, heavily medicated at the start of the film. Based on his conversation with the social worker, he was taking high doses of at least seven different medications. It’s not uncommon at all for medications to have serious side-effects that impair you cognitive abilities, make your perception of reality more cloudy/ muddled, and make it more difficult for you to express yourself. Even more so when you’re mixing a ton of medications at once.

Arthur’s metamorphosis into the Joker doesn’t occur until he’s gone cold turkey. He even comments on how things have never been clearer to him after he’s off the medications. In the last 20 minutes of the film he starts exhibiting more social awareness (e.g. realizing instantly that Murray is only inviting him on the talk show to mock him), and a certain level of cunning when in tense situations (e.g. sparking a fight on the subway to make things too chaotic for the detectives to apprehend him, and stealing a mask to blend in with the crowd). He also clearly gains more confidence at the end.

I dunno. He’s certainly not an intellectual titan, but I don’t feel like we can fairly evaluate him based on what we saw in this movie, which was him while he’s heavily medicated and at one of the lowest, most depressing, and most emotionally volatile points in his life. He has a lot of potential to grow as a schemer and refine his style.
I'm not sure that the meds stultified Arthur in this manner since the way he behaved on the meds vs off them wasn't that radically different, and we could also say that the meds might also help him function better cognitively given as well just as we could suppose they might inhibit him. But I think the movie gave us enough to go off of, both on the meds and off them, to indicate that he isn't a very intelligent person when it comes down to it. Even when he finally has some agency in the movie its done through his anger as opposed to a calculated act.

I also am not sure he wasn't already aware of why he was being brought on the Murray show. I am positive he did not instigate that get away from the police. He just entirely lucked out that he got on a train full of protestors and then the detective shot his gun which prompted the fight. I don't attribute that at all to Arthur. He has more confidence but confidence does not equate to intelligence. I just feel confident that nothing was done by Arthur in this movie to say hes an intelligent individual. And the fact we end the movie with him captured again, and then running around from his captors like a looney toon show doesn't inspire much confidence that hes going to be more intellectually adept than he was previously. And especially in another 20 years time when Batman finally enters the fray at his peak while Arthur is an aging 60 year old.
 

Disco

Member
Oct 25, 2017
5,982
The funny thing when people bring that up is that is always an argument when it comes to Joker v. Batman. Ledger's Joker just tossed a guy at him and kicked him when he was down.
Youre forgetting unleashing his dogs too haha

They were Batmans greatest enemy in the dark knight, love nolans batmovies tho despite his combat being spotty at times

I never really thought joker had to be physically capable of fighting tho. He manipulates others into doing that and just sows chaos
 
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Cpt-GargameL

Cpt-GargameL

Member
Oct 27, 2017
6,407
Quite the clever take

What do you get when a multi-million dollar corporation decides to capitalize on one of its most popular characters by centering them in a movie that taps into conversations about white domestic terrorism in the United States, incels, and the ways in which folks with mental illnesses are often abandoned by society? You get films like Todd Phillips’ Joker, apparently.
Article dives into their thoughts the movie

 

Durden

Avenger
Oct 25, 2017
3,784
Did anyone get the impression that Murray was...not that bad of guy? Like yeah shitting on Arthur by showing his clip and blasting him was messed up, but not necessarily deeply malicious. When it came time to have him on the show, he was really receptive of Arthur backstage, and even during the interview once it started getting crazy, he kept a cool head and seemed to want to learn Arthur's perspective even if he was disgusted with him.

I've just seen a lot of impressions saying that Murray was a massive piece of shit, one of the worst if not the worst in the movie, and I don't agree. To me he kind of represents line between the horrible people and the decent people, and that line became impossible for Arthur to discern by the time he descended into full madness.
 

Sanjuro

Member
Oct 25, 2017
13,639
Massachusetts
Did anyone get the impression that Murray was...not that bad of guy? Like yeah shitting on Arthur by showing his clip and blasting him was messed up, but not necessarily deeply malicious. When it came time to have him on the show, he was really receptive of Arthur backstage, and even during the interview once it started getting crazy, he kept a cool head and seemed to want to learn Arthur's perspective even if he was disgusted with him.

I've just seen a lot of impressions saying that Murray was a massive piece of shit, one of the worst if not the worst in the movie, and I don't agree. To me he kind of represents line between the horrible people and the decent people, and that line became impossible for Arthur to discern by the time he descended into full madness.
It never came across that Murray was a piece of shit. He just crossed paths with Joker.
 

Honolulu Blue

Member
Oct 27, 2017
2,459
Did anyone get the impression that Murray was...not that bad of guy?
I don't think the movie had any intention of painting Murray as a bad guy. Instead it makes clear that Arthur has an unhealthy and obsessive view of Murray and his show, with fantasies of being on the show and being told by Murray that he wishes to have a son like Arthur etc

All Murray/the show does is poke fun at the footage of Arthur’s stand up routine, which is content talk shows/light entertainment shows have been using every single week in real life for years.

Murray’s death is less about him being a bad guy and more about the culmination of Arthur’s pathetic and pitiful descent into criminal madness. He is The Joker at that point and Murray is merely the most immediate victim.
 

Durden

Avenger
Oct 25, 2017
3,784
It never came across that Murray was a piece of shit. He just crossed paths with Joker.
I don't think the movie had any intention of painting Murray as a bad guy. Instead it makes clear that Arthur has an unhealthy and obsessive view of Murray and his show, with fantasies of being on the show and being told by Murray that he wishes to have a son like Arthur etc

All Murray/the show does is poke fun at the footage of Arthur’s stand up routine, which is content talk shows/light entertainment shows have been using every single week in real life for years.

Murray’s death is less about him being a bad guy and more about the culmination of Arthur’s pathetic and pitiful descent into criminal madness. He is The Joker at that point and Murray is merely the most immediate victim.
Yeah, that's pretty much exactly how I feel about him. I think he's a pretty unique character in the grand scheme of the movie. I dunno just glancing around I've heard some people saying he was a piece of shit or whatever and I thought that was weird. Especially what you said Honolulu I think is right on the money.
 
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Cpt-GargameL

Cpt-GargameL

Member
Oct 27, 2017
6,407
I don't think the movie had any intention of painting Murray as a bad guy. Instead it makes clear that Arthur has an unhealthy and obsessive view of Murray and his show, with fantasies of being on the show and being told by Murray that he wishes to have a son like Arthur etc

All Murray/the show does is poke fun at the footage of Arthur’s stand up routine, which is content talk shows/light entertainment shows have been using every single week in real life for years.

Murray’s death is less about him being a bad guy and more about the culmination of Arthur’s pathetic and pitiful descent into criminal madness. He is The Joker at that point and Murray is merely the most immediate victim.
Spot on