- Oct 25, 2017
Seen it twice in 70mm now, and liked it even more today.
No, Murray was a genuinely bad dude imo. It doesn't take a mental health expert to realize that there's something seriously off about Arthur based on his stand-up routine. The nervous, completely over-the-top laughter that verges on hyperventilation, the manic look in his eyes, the simple, passionate but deluded speech he gives about his life long dream to entertain people . . . there were plenty of warning signs. Yet that didn't stop Murray from playing a video of Arthur's routine on television during prime time (without Arthur's knowledge or consent) just so that he could insult the dude for a few easy laughs. I can't even imagine how mortified I'd be if someone had done that to me.I don't think the movie had any intention of painting Murray as a bad guy. Instead it makes clear that Arthur has an unhealthy and obsessive view of Murray and his show, with fantasies of being on the show and being told by Murray that he wishes to have a son like Arthur etc
All Murray/the show does is poke fun at the footage of Arthur’s stand up routine, which is content talk shows/light entertainment shows have been using every single week in real life for years.
Murray’s death is less about him being a bad guy and more about the culmination of Arthur’s pathetic and pitiful descent into criminal madness. He is The Joker at that point and Murray is merely the most immediate victim.
Yeah, we don't see enough of Arthur to really know how much his psychotropic meds were effecting him. It's pretty common for medications to have negative side effects, and taking seven of them simultaneously doesn't sound like a great situation to me . . . but you're right, we just don't know enough about what Arthur is like off his meds to draw any conclusions.I'm not sure that the meds stultified Arthur in this manner since the way he behaved on the meds vs off them wasn't that radically different, and we could also say that the meds might also help him function better cognitively given as well just as we could suppose they might inhibit him. But I think the movie gave us enough to go off of, both on the meds and off them, to indicate that he isn't a very intelligent person when it comes down to it. Even when he finally has some agency in the movie its done through his anger as opposed to a calculated act.
I also am not sure he wasn't already aware of why he was being brought on the Murray show. I am positive he did not instigate that get away from the police. He just entirely lucked out that he got on a train full of protestors and then the detective shot his gun which prompted the fight. I don't attribute that at all to Arthur. He has more confidence but confidence does not equate to intelligence. I just feel confident that nothing was done by Arthur in this movie to say hes an intelligent individual. And the fact we end the movie with him captured again, and then running around from his captors like a looney toon show doesn't inspire much confidence that hes going to be more intellectually adept than he was previously. And especially in another 20 years time when Batman finally enters the fray at his peak while Arthur is an aging 60 year old.
I'm willing to bet, just like comic book joker he is willingly in there and (thanks to his new goons) can probably get out wheneber he wantsWhat are y'all thoughts on the very last scene? With Joker being chased back and forth by the orderlies... seemed kind of random, but the back and forth through the hallway had a comedic effect.
Only interpretation I could have is that they are going "round and round", alluding to the Joker's future as being trapped in this endless cat-and-mouse game in which we're not quite sure who is doing the running and who is doing the chasing.
I do feel like they didn't establish his genuine cunning, guile and intelligence in this film. Like he's not DUMB, but he didn't seem particularly smart. J is meant to be a criminal genius, basically.Who else thinks this Joker is super dumb? He won’t survive a day in the Nolanverse for example. I don’t see him coming up with the tricks and traps like he does in TDK. He’s too fucked up for that as a person and doesn’t show any planning or organisational skills.
nah give me more of the realism. that’s always what I found so appealing about Batman movies, especially the Nolan ones and this Joker film, is that Gotham parallels real life’s issues in a way that’s ultimately relatable. It’s a breath of fresh air from the more fantastical fluff of Marvel movies.
The Nolan movies aren't just realistic, they're borderline sci fi realism.
You wot m8 lmao
It's implied he killed the neighbor and her kid right?The problem is he only kills assholes in this movie
His murders come off as over the top karma.
He spares good people lol. Literally if you were nice to him he didn't kill you.
They should have had the guts to show him truly monstrous. Murray should have been a sympathetic father figure instead of an asshole who just wanted to mock Arthur on national tv.
He should have been killing people who weren't assholes. This Joker is a murderous Santa Clause you better be nice.
True, people forget how genuinely desperate Ledger's Joker was by the end of Dark Knight. He's raging about that boat.I don’t know why people keep saying this itt. Just over the span of the movie we see Arthur go from having difficulty fitting in with those around him to being able to go on a live talk show and spark a citywide riot. His skills at using other’s misfortune to his advantage are clear, and he has a mob of people willing do do his bidding by the end of the movie.
Then we give him 20 more years to become even more engrossed in depravity and criminal activity? I mean, I don’t get it...was Heath’s Joker an expert martial artist? We didn’t see him fight once and yet he’s heralded as some untouchable movie version of the character. TDK Joker’s greatest strength was his unpredictability and willingness to be absolutely evil. When push comes to shove he’s just as emotional as Arthur as is clearly seen when he decides to blow up the ferry himself.
That tweet about the "Vilian becomes the hero of the story" comment has become a pet peeve of mine in films like this where the protagonist ultimately falls into bad guy territory. I always wonder when someone posts something along those lines if they also think that Ted Bundy is the "hero" of a movie like Extremely Wicked, Shockingly Evil and Vile. I'd also like to know their thoughts on movies like Nightcrawler and The Devil's Rejects. It's as if they've never heard of a story told from the villians point of view.
Well he does exhibit a lot of symptoms associated with a mental illness like schizophrenia. Delusions of grandeur, visual and auditory hallucinations, unpredictable and unjustified emotional outbursts, a desire to harm or isolate himself (e.g. expressing suicidal ideation in his “joke” book, banging his head repeatedly off a glass panel, crawling into a fridge), and serious memory loss to name a few. I think he was born with some sort of mental health issue, and that his condition was exacerbated by the abuse he suffered as a child . . . which I think included head trauma.so was joker mentally ill? he asks for more dosage because it's not working and it's implied his laughter isn't all neurological, but that it is a developed habbit bur he was told it was? basically he was always like this but people thought he was mentally ill so they treated him as such. he then becomes to accept that it is him. i think the end is to show that while even the system cannot help him, he is perfectly aligned with who he is and that's not mentally ill but someone who they just don't get similar to batman, but we just assume they are mentally ill because the things they do.
Its true, smoking looks cool aesthetically and always has.
To be fair, those things aren’t mutually exclusive.
The Joker and Batman are both mentally ill. One of them is a murdering chaos agent and the other dresses like a bat fighting criminals because his parents were murdered in front of him. They have both gone through extreme childhood trauma and are two sides of the same coin. One chose chaos to cope with his trauma, the other chose order.
I wish people were more open to this different interpretation of the Joker, though. I know there will always be the comic, animated series, etc. loyalists that appreciate the more accurate iterations of the character, but I think there's room for a more realistic, non-criminal mastermind with severe metal health issues as well. It won't become the norm going forward or anything, it's just a good one-off.
the cinematography, acting, and music made it a very mesmerizing movie in a way. Not surprising it lingers.
Being a mastermind is part of Joker’s DNA though. In every elsewhere interpretation that I can think of, Joker is terribly smart and can outwit nearly everyone except Batman. They twist his origin, gender, identity, etc but the Joker is always inexplicably intelligent and cunning.I wish people were more open to this different interpretation of the Joker, though. I know there will always be the comic, animated series, etc. loyalists that appreciate the more accurate iterations of the character, but I think there's room for a more realistic, non-criminal mastermind with severe metal health issues as well. It won't become the norm going forward or anything, it's just a good one-off.
Yeah no kidding.
We really don’t know that though. He wasn’t the Joker for very long in this movie. What we do know though is the Joker is his “true self”. It’s very possible that when he taps into that, his mind will be free and confident to expand in the ways that are more typical of Joker’s criminal mastermind. We already saw shade of this with the train clown sequence and the final Murray show segment. With some more confidence and experience under his belt, there’s no telling what he’s capable of.Being a mastermind is part of Joker’s DNA though. In every elsewhere interpretation that I can think of, Joker is terribly smart and can outwit nearly everyone except Batman. They twist his origin, gender, identity, etc but the Joker is always inexplicably intelligent and cunning.
This interpretation removed that fundamental piece of the character, and I just can’t vibe with it.