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JOKER |OT| Viviamo in una società |SPOILERS|

CalamityPixel

Member
Oct 27, 2017
2,038
Just left the cinema. Was all right, not sire how I really feel.

Did my best not to laugh when he mentioned society.
 
Dec 22, 2018
303
I don't think the movie had any intention of painting Murray as a bad guy. Instead it makes clear that Arthur has an unhealthy and obsessive view of Murray and his show, with fantasies of being on the show and being told by Murray that he wishes to have a son like Arthur etc

All Murray/the show does is poke fun at the footage of Arthur’s stand up routine, which is content talk shows/light entertainment shows have been using every single week in real life for years.

Murray’s death is less about him being a bad guy and more about the culmination of Arthur’s pathetic and pitiful descent into criminal madness. He is The Joker at that point and Murray is merely the most immediate victim.
No, Murray was a genuinely bad dude imo. It doesn't take a mental health expert to realize that there's something seriously off about Arthur based on his stand-up routine. The nervous, completely over-the-top laughter that verges on hyperventilation, the manic look in his eyes, the simple, passionate but deluded speech he gives about his life long dream to entertain people . . . there were plenty of warning signs. Yet that didn't stop Murray from playing a video of Arthur's routine on television during prime time (without Arthur's knowledge or consent) just so that he could insult the dude for a few easy laughs. I can't even imagine how mortified I'd be if someone had done that to me.

If Murray had just left it at that, nothing else would have happened. But humiliating Arthur once wasn't good enough. After seeing what a positive reaction he got after publicly humiliating a mentally ill man, Murray decided to go back to the well. He had one of his producers call Arthur at his home and try to convince him to guest star on his show just so that he could mock him in front of a live studio audience. And for me, even his introduction of Arthur before the show seemed needlessly cruel and dismissive, with him telling his therapist guest that she really needed to check him out.

Murray's whole use of Arthur seemed mean-spirited and exploitative and it sort of reminded me of Dr. Phil's interview with Shelley Duvall, except worse because of the completely lack of compassion. He was only ever interested in using Arthur as a living punchline.

It's true that Murray didn't deserve his fate, but there's no doubt in my mind he was a reprehensible human being. By the climax of the movie, Murray had pretty much established himself as the poster child of a "society that abandons the mentally ill and treats them like trash."
 

Yossarian

The Fallen
Oct 25, 2017
6,584
Just watched it. Need to watch it again.

Early thoughts:
  • Phenomenal music
  • Mesmerising performance from Phoenix.
  • A few of the reveals were VERY well played.
  • Really liked the ambiguity of a lot of events.
  • Outside of the casting joke, DeNiro was violently miscast.
  • The plotting/sequence of events undermined a lot of the sympathy it was seemingly trying to build.
  • In fact, the sympathy in this film is all over the shop. For instance...
  • ...the class issue was underbaked, somewhat patronising and confused (not confusing)...
  • ...and it was built around horrible, one note caricatures: lower classes were almost animal-like, whereas the rich were smug pieces of shit...
  • ...again, where were my sympathies meant to lie... what was it trying to say?
  • Mental illness... where even to begin? Felt like it was trying to have its cake and eat it.
  • Some of the dialogue wasn’t profound enough for the amount of reverence/attention the film gave it.
I left the movie asking questions, but definitely not the questions the movie wants me to ask, such as: Was that actually any good? I’ve never had that happen before.

I think I need to give it another shot, which is encouraging, I guess.
 
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honavery

Member
Oct 27, 2017
345
Phoenix, AZ
Saw this on Saturday and liked it more than I thought I would. Great performance by Phoenix of course, and the way the film looked was stunning. Watched it in 35MM, and with the production/art design of the film, it was almost like it was shot in the late 70s.

I thought it was an interesting take on the character. I know some people are upset that it isn't 'true to the original character'. But I'm fine with a different take on it, the Joker IP is one of the most valuable in entertainment. They will be making Joker (or Batman) movies well after I'm dead.
 

DeathPeak

Member
Oct 27, 2017
1,103
The final joke was this was secretly another Batman origin story. Loved it! May see it in theaters again. That Murray scene really is phenomenal.
 
Dec 22, 2018
303
I'm not sure that the meds stultified Arthur in this manner since the way he behaved on the meds vs off them wasn't that radically different, and we could also say that the meds might also help him function better cognitively given as well just as we could suppose they might inhibit him. But I think the movie gave us enough to go off of, both on the meds and off them, to indicate that he isn't a very intelligent person when it comes down to it. Even when he finally has some agency in the movie its done through his anger as opposed to a calculated act.

I also am not sure he wasn't already aware of why he was being brought on the Murray show. I am positive he did not instigate that get away from the police. He just entirely lucked out that he got on a train full of protestors and then the detective shot his gun which prompted the fight. I don't attribute that at all to Arthur. He has more confidence but confidence does not equate to intelligence. I just feel confident that nothing was done by Arthur in this movie to say hes an intelligent individual. And the fact we end the movie with him captured again, and then running around from his captors like a looney toon show doesn't inspire much confidence that hes going to be more intellectually adept than he was previously. And especially in another 20 years time when Batman finally enters the fray at his peak while Arthur is an aging 60 year old.
Yeah, we don't see enough of Arthur to really know how much his psychotropic meds were effecting him. It's pretty common for medications to have negative side effects, and taking seven of them simultaneously doesn't sound like a great situation to me . . . but you're right, we just don't know enough about what Arthur is like off his meds to draw any conclusions.

As for the train incident, what sparks the fight is Arthur yanking the mask off of one of the protestors and getting shoved into someone else in retaliation. Granted, Arthur probably only stole the mask so that he could blend into the crowd, but I still have to give him props. If I was being chased by two angry armed detectives I wouldn't have the situational awareness to use the people around me to my advantage. That obviously doesn't make him a criminal mastermind, but it does show me that he's not a complete idiot and that he has decent instincts when he's thrown into a stressful situation.

So yeah, while there's nothing in the movie that shows he's intelligent, there also nothing that would suggest to me that he's a moron either. I could see him improving.

I agree with you 100% about the age difference though. Just picturing a ripped, 30 year old Batman physically pummeling a mentally unstable geriatric man conjures up . . .uh . . . quite the mental image, lol. I guess you could make the argument that Arthur is in his early 30s and that he just looks like an old boot because he's been living a hard life, but still.
 
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Grunge_Hamster

The Fallen
Oct 27, 2017
4,769
Joker imagined himself explaining to the audience the reveal that he never had anything with his neighbor.

Self-unreliable and expository narrator.
 

nib95

Member
Oct 28, 2017
11,826
Watched this earlier today. In terms of cinematography, art direction, lighting, score and acting, it was incredible. A real feast for the eyes, with almost every scene being beautifully framed or set up. Phoenix's performance was unbelievable.

That said, it fell short in a few areas that bogged the entire experience down somewhat, notably the predictability of the plot, as well as the slow as molasses pacing at times. Almost feel like at least 15+ minutes could have been trimmed without remotely impacting character building or atmosphere.

All in all I'd probably give it a 7.5/10.
 

foxuzamaki

Member
Oct 25, 2017
12,914
What are y'all thoughts on the very last scene? With Joker being chased back and forth by the orderlies... seemed kind of random, but the back and forth through the hallway had a comedic effect.

Only interpretation I could have is that they are going "round and round", alluding to the Joker's future as being trapped in this endless cat-and-mouse game in which we're not quite sure who is doing the running and who is doing the chasing.
I'm willing to bet, just like comic book joker he is willingly in there and (thanks to his new goons) can probably get out wheneber he wants
 

selfReg

Member
Oct 26, 2017
1,597
I actually was expecting an armored car to bust through the wall with the Joker hopping in for the getaway.
 

Jiminy

Avenger
Mar 29, 2018
3,600
Who else thinks this Joker is super dumb? He won’t survive a day in the Nolanverse for example. I don’t see him coming up with the tricks and traps like he does in TDK. He’s too fucked up for that as a person and doesn’t show any planning or organisational skills.
I do feel like they didn't establish his genuine cunning, guile and intelligence in this film. Like he's not DUMB, but he didn't seem particularly smart. J is meant to be a criminal genius, basically.

In this he just got very lucky in repeated succession
 

Jiminy

Avenger
Mar 29, 2018
3,600
nah give me more of the realism. that’s always what I found so appealing about Batman movies, especially the Nolan ones and this Joker film, is that Gotham parallels real life’s issues in a way that’s ultimately relatable. It’s a breath of fresh air from the more fantastical fluff of Marvel movies.
The Nolan movies already did it though. To be honest this version of the Joker is depressing and even Batfleck was a bit ridiculously dark.

I'd like something more like the Burton films but more grounded. Joker is supposed to be fun at least a little bit.
The Nolan movies aren't just realistic, they're borderline sci fi realism.

A batman movie without any of the sci fi stuff (or at least with it toned down) would be fantastic
 

JB1981

Member
Oct 28, 2017
10,475
Why would anyone want a realistic Joker movie? He's not realistic, he's a genius super villain.
 

Jiminy

Avenger
Mar 29, 2018
3,600
Arthur's misery is mostly his own doing.
You wot m8 lmao

The problem is he only kills assholes in this movie

His murders come off as over the top karma.

He spares good people lol. Literally if you were nice to him he didn't kill you.

They should have had the guts to show him truly monstrous. Murray should have been a sympathetic father figure instead of an asshole who just wanted to mock Arthur on national tv.

He should have been killing people who weren't assholes. This Joker is a murderous Santa Clause you better be nice.
It's implied he killed the neighbor and her kid right?
 

Jiminy

Avenger
Mar 29, 2018
3,600
I don’t know why people keep saying this itt. Just over the span of the movie we see Arthur go from having difficulty fitting in with those around him to being able to go on a live talk show and spark a citywide riot. His skills at using other’s misfortune to his advantage are clear, and he has a mob of people willing do do his bidding by the end of the movie.

Then we give him 20 more years to become even more engrossed in depravity and criminal activity? I mean, I don’t get it...was Heath’s Joker an expert martial artist? We didn’t see him fight once and yet he’s heralded as some untouchable movie version of the character. TDK Joker’s greatest strength was his unpredictability and willingness to be absolutely evil. When push comes to shove he’s just as emotional as Arthur as is clearly seen when he decides to blow up the ferry himself.
True, people forget how genuinely desperate Ledger's Joker was by the end of Dark Knight. He's raging about that boat.
 
Dec 22, 2018
303
The Nolan movies aren't just realistic, they're borderline sci fi realism.

A batman movie without any of the sci fi stuff (or at least with it toned down) would be fantastic

I’d also argue the Joker in the Nolan-verse is more lucky than brilliant. For example, just take the bank heist at the beginning. Keeping one of your henchmen distracted long enough so that you don’t get shot in the face, trusting some driver you barely know to crash through the wall in a school bus at just the right moment and at just the right angle to avoid getting crushed, escaping in that same school bus hoping that the bus drivers behind you don’t instantly report you. Most of his schemes were completely hair-brained. They just happened to work out because the Joker is the god damn Joker!

Not trashing Nolan-verse Joker btw. I love him as a villain. I’m just pointing out that he really wasn’t any smarter than Arthur. His plans were just a bit more complicated and a bit more ambitious.
 
Oct 26, 2017
10,860
so was joker mentally ill? he asks for more dosage because it's not working and it's implied his laughter isn't all neurological, but that it is a developed habbit bur he was told it was? basically he was always like this but people thought he was mentally ill so they treated him as such. he then becomes to accept that it is him. i think the end is to show that while even the system cannot help him, he is perfectly aligned with who he is and that's not mentally ill but someone who they just don't get similar to batman, but we just assume they are mentally ill because the things they do.
 

Forsaken82

Member
Oct 27, 2017
1,402
That tweet about the "Vilian becomes the hero of the story" comment has become a pet peeve of mine in films like this where the protagonist ultimately falls into bad guy territory. I always wonder when someone posts something along those lines if they also think that Ted Bundy is the "hero" of a movie like Extremely Wicked, Shockingly Evil and Vile. I'd also like to know their thoughts on movies like Nightcrawler and The Devil's Rejects. It's as if they've never heard of a story told from the villians point of view.

I think there's a bigger problem here if your take away is "The Joker is the hero" and it's not with the movie.
 
Dec 22, 2018
303
so was joker mentally ill? he asks for more dosage because it's not working and it's implied his laughter isn't all neurological, but that it is a developed habbit bur he was told it was? basically he was always like this but people thought he was mentally ill so they treated him as such. he then becomes to accept that it is him. i think the end is to show that while even the system cannot help him, he is perfectly aligned with who he is and that's not mentally ill but someone who they just don't get similar to batman, but we just assume they are mentally ill because the things they do.
Well he does exhibit a lot of symptoms associated with a mental illness like schizophrenia. Delusions of grandeur, visual and auditory hallucinations, unpredictable and unjustified emotional outbursts, a desire to harm or isolate himself (e.g. expressing suicidal ideation in his “joke” book, banging his head repeatedly off a glass panel, crawling into a fridge), and serious memory loss to name a few. I think he was born with some sort of mental health issue, and that his condition was exacerbated by the abuse he suffered as a child . . . which I think included head trauma.

The meds probably did help him to an extent, especially if he was prone to violence. Arthur mentions that he was involuntarily committed to AA for some reason he can’t remember, and when he asks the asylum clerk how people wind up there the guy points out that it’s usually because they hurt themselves or others. Going off the meds was DEFINITELY a bad thing for him, even if they weren’t doing that great of a job in the first place.
 
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Snake Eater

Member
Oct 27, 2017
5,024
Just saw the film, just stunning cinematography

got to say it was a little weird how many times they made Joker look really cool with the cigarette shots
 
Nov 13, 2017
5,404
Someone on Twitter nailed exactly why I couldn’t love this movie. Paraphrasing, but:

“The Joker” isn’t mentally ill. He’s an evil person who consciously makes evil decisions. That’s why he can keep up with the Batman.
 

LGHT_TRSN

Member
Oct 25, 2017
3,347
Someone on Twitter nailed exactly why I couldn’t love this movie. Paraphrasing, but:

“The Joker” isn’t mentally ill. He’s an evil person who consciously makes evil decisions. That’s why he can keep up with the Batman.
The Joker and Batman are both mentally ill. One of them is a murdering chaos agent and the other dresses like a bat fighting criminals because his parents were murdered in front of him. They have both gone through extreme childhood trauma and are two sides of the same coin. One chose chaos to cope with his trauma, the other chose order.

Being mentally ill doesn't prevent someone from having agency. One can be mentally ill and consciously make evil decisions, which is what Fleck does throughout this film, or make heroic decisions, which is what Batman does.

I don't see how this film implies Fleck is never in control over his heinous decisions because he's mentally ill.
 

Aurc

Member
Oct 28, 2017
3,580
Someone on Twitter nailed exactly why I couldn’t love this movie. Paraphrasing, but:

“The Joker” isn’t mentally ill. He’s an evil person who consciously makes evil decisions. That’s why he can keep up with the Batman.
I wish people were more open to this different interpretation of the Joker, though. I know there will always be the comic, animated series, etc. loyalists that appreciate the more accurate iterations of the character, but I think there's room for a more realistic, non-criminal mastermind with severe metal health issues as well. It won't become the norm going forward or anything, it's just a good one-off.
 

Durden

Avenger
Oct 25, 2017
4,314
Man...this movie has really stuck with me. I can’t stop thinking about it. I really want to see it again. The combination of Phoenix’s just jaw dropping performance along with the movie’s open ended structure among other things just really did it for me. I understand it might not work for everyone, but it’s got me captivated. It’s crazy too, cause I remember when it was first announced I was pretty irked by the concept.
 
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Azzanadra

Member
Oct 25, 2017
2,474
Canada
Is it weird that I'm still thinking about this movie? I gave it an 8/10 as I left the theaters last week, definitely not the sort of "masterpiece" film that really sticks with me, and yet....I want to go back and see it again.
 

-Pyromaniac-

Member
Oct 25, 2017
3,405
Is it weird that I'm still thinking about this movie? I gave it an 8/10 as I left the theaters last week, definitely not the sort of "masterpiece" film that really sticks with me, and yet....I want to go back and see it again.
the cinematography, acting, and music made it a very mesmerizing movie in a way. Not surprising it lingers.
 
Nov 13, 2017
5,404
I wish people were more open to this different interpretation of the Joker, though. I know there will always be the comic, animated series, etc. loyalists that appreciate the more accurate iterations of the character, but I think there's room for a more realistic, non-criminal mastermind with severe metal health issues as well. It won't become the norm going forward or anything, it's just a good one-off.
Being a mastermind is part of Joker’s DNA though. In every elsewhere interpretation that I can think of, Joker is terribly smart and can outwit nearly everyone except Batman. They twist his origin, gender, identity, etc but the Joker is always inexplicably intelligent and cunning.

This interpretation removed that fundamental piece of the character, and I just can’t vibe with it.
 

Azzanadra

Member
Oct 25, 2017
2,474
Canada
the cinematography, acting, and music made it a very mesmerizing movie in a way. Not surprising it lingers.
Yeah no kidding.

But even the story... I thought the movie was really on-the-nose when I watched it, but after reading through this thread I feel like I've missed a fair amount as well. The script could get funny at times but I can't quite pin down how I feel about Fleck, this is the most extreme case of the nature vs. nurture theme I've experienced in quite some time.
 

TheWorthyEdge

Member
Oct 25, 2017
2,033
I think my biggest problem with the movie is that I don't feel the Joker did anything evil. He didn't do anything that actively made me root against him which I wanted.
 

Durden

Avenger
Oct 25, 2017
4,314
Being a mastermind is part of Joker’s DNA though. In every elsewhere interpretation that I can think of, Joker is terribly smart and can outwit nearly everyone except Batman. They twist his origin, gender, identity, etc but the Joker is always inexplicably intelligent and cunning.

This interpretation removed that fundamental piece of the character, and I just can’t vibe with it.
We really don’t know that though. He wasn’t the Joker for very long in this movie. What we do know though is the Joker is his “true self”. It’s very possible that when he taps into that, his mind will be free and confident to expand in the ways that are more typical of Joker’s criminal mastermind. We already saw shade of this with the train clown sequence and the final Murray show segment. With some more confidence and experience under his belt, there’s no telling what he’s capable of.

There’s also the whole thing where this entire story could be fictional in this Joker’s mind, and this Joker actually a different entity all together in reality.