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JOKER |OT| Viviamo in una società |SPOILERS|

Brinbe

Avenger
Oct 25, 2017
16,276
Terana
The Joker part was literally the only thing anchoring me to this film in any way lol. It was was just Bleh. I'd wanna see the follow-through of Batman and this Joker because that completes the 🎨.

Otherwise, I think the obvious and overwrought themes throughout the movie were handled like garbage. What a stupid and cynical world of Gotham in this movie.

I can see why ppl liked it a lot, especially TIFF audiences but it was all too on the nose with the musical swells and shit. The artiface of it all was too much for me like it's beating me over the head that hey, we're making an arthouse super hero movie! LOOK AT HIM DANCE!

There were some real good moments by Phoenix that were taken down by so many of these weak extraneous sidebits, especially making him this zany, misunderstood, inspiring figure. Maybe that was all delusionary as well, but I think the ending said everything it wanted to about the tone it wanted for this Joker.
 

DeathPeak

Member
Oct 27, 2017
1,008
Joker is just barely coming into his own. He has plenty of time to develope into the mastermind people know him to be. I don't understand why he suddenly has to be as smart as Batman when Batman is like 10+ years away in this world.

Not to mention, didn't Todd Philips already suggest that Arthur is more likely to be the influence for The Joker that goes up against Batman? So it doesn't even really matter.
 

Border

Member
Oct 25, 2017
8,924
The way I saw it the movie portrayed it like the Joker was right. Murray was being a complete asshole to him. I'm not saying you kill the man but make Murray a better guy and I'd feel like Joker was more in the wrong.
He made a few jokes about his poor stand-up routine, but still gave him pretty massive exposure and invited him on the show. And gave Arthur massive leeway when he showed up in a literal clownsuit with no real act to speak of. I don't want to say he was a great guy, but he was way more accomodating than pretty much any other live TV host would have been. I have a hard time seeing Murray's murder as some kind of karmic retribution or street justice. I think the point is that he's really no worse than any other late night hosts. Jay Leno had bits that were way more mean-spirited, and he's considered the pussycat of the bunch.

It's almost the punchline of the movie -- that Joker can't actually take a joke. Or make a joke. He shows up and his only attempt is some corny edgelord "Knock knock" joke.
 

TheWorthyEdge

Member
Oct 25, 2017
1,882
He made a few jokes about his poor stand-up routine, but still gave him pretty massive exposure and invited him on the show. And gave Arthur massive leeway when he showed up in a literal clownsuit with no real act to speak of. I don't want to say he was a great guy, but he was way more accomodating than pretty much any other live TV host would have been. I have a hard time seeing Murray's murder as some kind of karmic retribution or street justice. I think the point is that he's really no worse than any other late night hosts. Jay Leno had bits that were way more mean-spirited, and he's considered the pussycat of the bunch.
I mean, he definitely wanted to make fun of him. That was the only reason why he had him on the show. Arthur even pointed that out.
 

Durden

Avenger
Oct 25, 2017
3,784
I keep seeing this type of post and I can't stop smiling at people turning Arthur into the little engine that could.
Why? Why do you think the more standard Joker has so much more potential than this Joker? You don’t know his origin. This could actually be his origin. Or it might not be.

Maybe the origin of the Joker actually is the Killing Joke origin. Why would you think that a failed stand up comedian that fell into some chemicals would have more potential to become the insane yet brilliant criminal genius that we know over Arthur?

That’s what’s so brilliant about the movie in using this character. While some people say this is a character study movie that the Joker happens to be in, to me in a way it truly defines the character probably better than any other film has. We have no fucking idea what the Joker actually is, and we probably never will. We just know he’s an unbelievable presence.

All it takes is one bad day homie.
 

TheWorthyEdge

Member
Oct 25, 2017
1,882
Your own moral compass is fucked if you think it wasn’t an evil act to kill the guy.
Obviously it's not the right thing to fuckin' do. I think you're taking this wrong. I'm not saying to murder someone. But it's a movie, and a villain. So when it has the Joker murder people that have done bad things or have bad intentions then what the fuck am I supposed to think? Obviously murdering is bad. I'm saying that for the Joker as a character this felt tame, and made the audience feel sympathetic and see the reasoning behind his murders. You're making it out like Arthur is a legitimate person in our society. If he was then fuck intentions, if he murdered someone that's evil. But it's the Joker and he's not real. Don't know if you know that. Guess I'm morally corrupt.
 

Border

Member
Oct 25, 2017
8,924
I mean, he definitely wanted to make fun of him. That was the only reason why he had him on the show. Arthur even pointed that out.
That's what Arthur thinks, but he's already developed something of a persecution complex. I don't think it's ever indicated that Fleck was only invited on for further mockery. We never see Murray or his assistants planning to attack or ambush him. I kinda thought the invitation to appear was meant as something of an olive branch -- to give the guy a leg up after knocking him down a peg. If we were intended to see Murray as a villain I think they would have pushed that angle a little harder -- at best his motivations are probably meant to be ambiguous.
 

xxracerxx

Avenger
Oct 25, 2017
17,051
Obviously it's not the right thing to fuckin' do. I think you're taking this wrong. I'm not saying to murder someone. But it's a movie, and a villain. So when it has the Joker murder people that have done bad things or have bad intentions then what the fuck am I supposed to think? Obviously murdering is bad. I'm saying that for the Joker as a character this felt tame, and made the audience feel sympathetic and see the reasoning behind his murders. You're making it out like Arthur is a legitimate person in our society. If he was then fuck intentions, if he murdered someone that's evil. But it's the Joker and he's not real. Don't know if you know that. Guess I'm morally corrupt.
You can see his reasoning for him killing and still think they are evil acts and in no way justified.
 

AuthenticM

The Fallen
Oct 25, 2017
7,130
This movie is toothless. It's not that adept at tackling the themes it is trying to tackle, and in fact, I'm not even sure it was trying to tackle them. It's a very superficial movie that does not deserve the controversy or even the conversation that it has generated the last few weeks. It's okay, and nothing more.

I wish I could say I was disappointed in the movie, but the truth is I'm disappointed in myself for wishing that Todd Philips was going to deliver a high-caliber drama.
 
Oct 28, 2017
11,739
California
Still can't stop thinking about this movie.

I know in my initial reaction I said it's one of those "you only need to see it once" movies, given how dark it is at times, but I feel it'll reward repeat viewings. Can't wait for the blu-ray to see the deleted scenes.
 

Based0ne

The Fallen
Oct 27, 2017
591
USA
Still can't stop thinking about this movie.

I know in my initial reaction I said it's one of those "you only need to see it once" movies, given how dark it is at times, but I feel it'll reward repeat viewings. Can't wait for the blu-ray to see the deleted scenes.
And that’s what I did today, saw it a 2nd time and throughly enjoyed it. This time around I saw it in a regular screening as opposed to Dolby. The experience didn’t feel the same but of course the movie was still good.
 

water_wendi

Member
Oct 25, 2017
1,703
Did he fuck him over? I thought him giving the gun was delusion.
No he gave him the gun. The whole reason he was at the apartment wasnt because of condolences for the mother but he says that the cops have been asking him questions and he wants to talk with Arthur and get their story straight. If the gun was stolen he would just tell the cops and that would be that.
 

xxracerxx

Avenger
Oct 25, 2017
17,051
No he gave him the gun. The whole reason he was at the apartment wasnt because of condolences for the mother but he says that the cops have been asking him questions and he wants to talk with Arthur and get their story straight. If the gun was stolen he would just tell the cops and that would be that.
So the answer is no, the co-worker didn't fuck him over.
 

SSJDio

The Fallen
Apr 13, 2018
5,704
Why? Why do you think the more standard Joker has so much more potential than this Joker? You don’t know his origin. This could actually be his origin. Or it might not be.

Maybe the origin of the Joker actually is the Killing Joke origin. Why would you think that a failed stand up comedian that fell into some chemicals would have more potential to become the insane yet brilliant criminal genius that we know over Arthur?
It's not about potential. It's never been about potential. Joker at his best has always been a finished product. That's one of the reasons why Killing Joke works so well.

We never see that in this movie. Todd Phillips's ambiguity doesn't mean shit, it just makes it dumber.
 

Gustaf

Member
Oct 28, 2017
6,132
Didn't his boss say that the guy that gave him the gun said that Arthur was trying to buy a different gun from someone else?
no, randall (the dude that gave arthur the gun) told the boss that arthur wanted to buy a gun from him

I vaguely remember hearing someone say "Arthur bought the gun" or that "he was looking for a gun to buy" something along those lines when he was at HaHas. Which in turn made him pissed off about his co-worker and the reason why he killed him.
randall sold arthur off, not admitting that he gave him the gun, and washing his hand off the matter by saying arthur wanted to buy a gun from him but he said no
 

xxracerxx

Avenger
Oct 25, 2017
17,051
randall sold arthur off, not admitting that he gave him the gun, and washing his hand off the matter by saying arthur wanted to buy a gun from him but he said no
Arthur was going to get canned no matter what the co-worker said here.

As for fucking Arthur over i think being ratted on by the cops is being fucked over. i forget the scene it happens in but Arthur learns the cops know about him because of Gun Clown.
The cops said they talked to people at his work and know he dropped a gun in the children's hospital.
 

joeposh

Member
Oct 27, 2017
98
If Joker is meant to represent the manifestation of the rot and neglect in society, then I would have liked to see that turmoil gradually fester in the background of the film as well. The jump from murders to riots was way too quick.
This is the thing that really felt half baked to me. When he murders the 3 young bankers on the train, it's certainly newsworthy -- but it's not clear why or how a murder like that would elicit a widespread movement. If the film had done more world building, it might have made more sense, but the momentum just builds, without any further push or statement of purpose from Arthur until the very end.

Arthur's journey is woven together pretty well, Gotham's and his role within it is harder to accept.
 

KartuneDX

Member
Jan 12, 2018
654
Tons of mixed feelings on the film. I think tonally it nailed the escalating erratic behavior relative to the things going on in Fleck’s environment and it was engaging seeing how he’d act or try to act in certain situations.

Joker in films before this always portray a well-established character with a mental state that’s well past the point of explanation but a methodical execution that conveys he’s a sane insane man. What made Phoenix’s Joker so captivating is that this was a fragile man finding community in the chaos he was learning to foster and succeed in. When the rioters carry him out of the police car, that part gave me goosebumps because the entire film until that point all Fleck wanted was to be heard, seen, and felt. This mob of faceless rioters empathizing with his actions despite a lack of political motive resonated with Fleck especially, contributing I think to the peace he seems to have achieved at the bare ending sequence where he’s comedically running through the Arkham hallways.
 

2ndTuXx

Member
Oct 27, 2017
295
Felt like the movie could’ve left more of an impact if it touched more on the whole issue of the mentally ill having gun access.

At one point, it felt it was gonna really drive home the issue but kinda backed off on its approach, which is weird because the whole movie really starts off when Arthur is given the gun.

My guess is the movie got chopped down in the editing room due to pressure.

Also, does anyone else think there’s a possibility that Arthur discovering he was adoptive being another delusion? Genetically, Arthur could’ve gotten his schizophrenia from Penny.
 
Nov 13, 2017
4,946
My pitch for Joker 2:

Big reveal at the end of the film that Arthur is just some whacko inmate that idolizes the real Joker the same way he idolized Murray, and is convinced that he’s him.
 

zoozilla

Avenger
Jun 9, 2018
212
Japan
I liked the idea that Arthur basically took his physical abnormality - his laugh - and turned it into a philosophy of life. If you’re already laughing, why not treat everything like a joke?

I just wish they went further with it. This movie was such a good opportunity to interrogate the Pewdiepies of the world, the guys who use “just a joke” as a cover to excuse whatever harm they may cause. I feel like the movie touches on the joker being the extreme version of this way of thinking, but it never really focuses on it and other things get in the way.

I guess overall I thought it was worth watching, but it’s way too muddled to come anywhere close to the movies it so devotedly emulates.
 

Drewton

Member
Oct 27, 2017
8,072
Just got out, really good. But I feel like the trailers spoiler too much, I think I need to watch it again without thinking of the trailers. It was probably less violent and shocking than I expected, and I expected Arthur to be more sympathetic.

I definitely want to see Joker 2.
 

Dahbomb

Community Resettler
Member
Oct 25, 2017
4,785
Damn good Joker movie and performance with an unforgettable sequence towards the end with De Niro but the themes and subtexts were delivered with the subtlety of a hammer. Wealth inequality and social injustice was at the forefront and they went as far as to make Thomas Wayne look like a massive prick.

I can see why people were worried about its implication but it was still a bit overblown. That said the depiction of wealth inequality is going to hit home with a lot of people in the US in today's age.

And just give Phoenix the Oscar already.