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JOKER |OT| Viviamo in una società |SPOILERS|

ShaunB

Member
Oct 25, 2017
365
Does the guy who interviews her make it clear that it was only the boyfriend who abused Arthur? I'll have to watch the movie again but I was under the impression that they were both at fault.

Now that I'm thinking about it, though. That does make sense since I was wondering why they left Arthur with her. If it was just the boyfriend then they probably didn't have a reason to remove Arthur from her.
The boyfriend was abusive to both of them. There's a photo of Penny with a black eye in the folder (or this might be in the flashback of her in the police station).
 

Pachimari

Member
Oct 25, 2017
10,781
Yeah, after my second watch yesterday, I really felt like Penny never laid a hand on Arthur. It was Thomas who abused them both.

Anyone else noticed when the Joker got tackled on the Murray show after his stunt? It felt so good.
 
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Gustaf

Member
Oct 28, 2017
6,131
Why not just lock the deadbolt then? The chain doesn't make much sense to me outside of making a joke at the expense of Charlie (I think that was his name?), which felt par for the course coming from the guy who also directed the Hangover.
idk man,

puting the door chain seems something natural to do when you are trying to prevent someone from running away.

it is something they will never check before trying to open the door, so by the time they close the door and try to remove the chain, arthur would be onto them already.
 

krossj

Member
Dec 4, 2017
40
Seen it today thought it was alright. Quite unsettling up until the joker actually came out completely from Arthur which is kind of bizarre way to think about it but worked really well within the movie.

Couple of questions though but I could just have missed something

The last scene of Arthur in the hospital where it cuts back to Bruce, his parents and giant rats was a bit strange I suppose something is there the director intended?

Did Arthur say in the beginning that he had been to the hospital yet when he goes to get the records he asked how to get in a place like this?

There was a billboard in the back when Arthur is on top of the car at the end that said “Ace in the hole” I know it’s a very popular saying but is this a reference to something? It just stuck out to me because it’s used in the dark knight too? or a reference to the movie? Or nothing?
 

JB1981

Member
Oct 28, 2017
9,420
Yeah, after my second watch yesterday, I really felt like Penny never laid a hand on Arthur. It was Thomas who abused them both.

Anyone else noticed when the Joker got tackled on the Murray show after his stunt? It felt so good.
Where did you get the idea that Thomas abused Arthur as a child?

I don't see any reason to doubt that Penny was mentally disturbed. Her 40 year old son bathes her for christs sake.
 

mercenar1e

Member
Dec 18, 2017
570
Where did you get the idea that Thomas abused Arthur as a child?

I don't see any reason to doubt that Penny was mentally disturbed. Her 40 year old son bathes her for christs sake.
Arthur was looking at a photo of his mother when she was younger and the back of it had TW initials along with a message that said he loved her smile or something along those lines. The look on Alfreds face when Arthur confronted him at the gate reeked of a cover up orchestrated by one of the richest and most powerful man in Gotham. He forged the adoption papers and had her committed to ruin her character.

At least that’s what I took from it.
 

Moppeh

Member
Oct 28, 2017
1,583
Where did you get the idea that Thomas abused Arthur as a child?

I don't see any reason to doubt that Penny was mentally disturbed. Her 40 year old son bathes her for christs sake.
The writing for Penny is so obtuse that it only works if she is mentally disturbed. If that somehow isn't the case, or it is meant to be ambiguous, then her character dialogue fucking blows.
 

Drewton

Member
Oct 27, 2017
8,072
I was hoping he wouldn’t be able to help laughing while murdering people, it would have been chilling


Arthur was looking at a photo of his mother when she was younger and the back of it had TW initials along with a message that said he loved her smile or something along those lines. The look on Alfreds face when Arthur confronted him at the gate reeked of a cover up orchestrated by one of the richest and most powerful man in Gotham. He forged the adoption papers and had her committed to ruin her character.

At least that’s what I took from it.
There’s two points I see in the bathroom scene supporting either direction, one being a Thomas saying he signs autographs for everybody and the other that Thomas punching Arthur could mean he was the abusive boyfriend.
 

Pachimari

Member
Oct 25, 2017
10,781
I don't see any reason to doubt that Penny was mentally disturbed. Her 40 year old son bathes her for christs sake.
Just cause her son bathes her, doesn't mean she's mentally disturbed. Jesus.

Arthur was looking at a photo of his mother when she was younger and the back of it had TW initials along with a message that said he loved her smile or something along those lines. The look on Alfreds face when Arthur confronted him at the gate reeked of a cover up orchestrated by one of the richest and most powerful man in Gotham. He forged the adoption papers and had her committed to ruin her character.

At least that’s what I took from it.
This is also what I took from it. Especially with Alfred's expression.
Especially on my second watch I very much felt Penny never laid a hand on Arthur.
But maybe she wasn't all well, since didn't he get her to sign papers to keep her quiet.

I mean, I also understand the angle, where she's mentally disturbed and was the one abusing Arthur.
 

Moppeh

Member
Oct 28, 2017
1,583
A lot of the dialogue in this movie is poor
Yeah, definitely. It's the primary reason why I don't like the film. Phoenix's acting elevates his character and the movie is incredibly well shot, but that isn't enough to cover up a script I deeply dislike. But in Penny's case, her dialogue that I despised all the way through felt justified by the end because of the reveal concerning her mental state.
 

Drewton

Member
Oct 27, 2017
8,072
Obviously very different but was anyone else reminded a little of Michael Jackson? Sometimes seeming childlike, liking Charlie Chaplin, dancing, standing on the car.
 

JB1981

Member
Oct 28, 2017
9,420
Just cause her son bathes her, doesn't mean she's mentally disturbed. Jesus.
It’s just one of many reasons to believe that Penny is either disabled in a way that isn’t made explicit in the movie (Alzheimer’s?) and needs someone to tend to her needs or she has psychological problems. Why does Penny need a bath from her son unless she’s handicapped or impaired in some way?

The actress who plays her, Frances Conroy, is 66 not 85. Most 66 year old seniors don’t need help bathing
 
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Pachimari

Member
Oct 25, 2017
10,781
It’s just one of many reasons to believe that Penny is either disabled in a way that isn’t made explicit in the movie (Alzheimer’s?) and needs someone to tend to her needs or she has psychological problems. Why does Penny need a bath from her son unless she’s handicapped or impaired in some way?

The actress who plays her, Frances Conroy, is 66 not 85. Most 66 year old seniors don’t need help bathing
I just didn't agree with her being mentally disturbed just cause she needed her son to shower her, that's all. Sure it could point to her having alzheimers (and I know all about these sicknesses, I'm dealing with it myself in my family). I'm just not convinced she's the one who abused Arthur, as opposed to her boyfriend doing it. If you feel like she abused him, that's fair, I can see that.
 
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eZipsis

The Fallen
Oct 25, 2017
348
Melbourne, Australia
Saw it yesterday, I quite enjoyed it. I thought Joaquin Phoenix did a great job. What really stood out for me was the music though. I loved it.


I've been listening to it all day. Looks like I'll be adding Hildur Guðnadóttir to my list of composers to follow.
 

Einchy

Member
Oct 25, 2017
26,446
I knew going in the cinematography was gonna be great because of the trailer and Phoenix was obviously gonna be out of this world, those delivered, but the score caught me completely off guard. It was fantastic.
 
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Cpt-GargameL

Cpt-GargameL

Member
Oct 27, 2017
6,407
Saw it yesterday, I quite enjoyed it. I thought Joaquin Phoenix did a great job. What really stood out for me was the music though. I loved it.


I've been listening to it all day. Looks like I'll be adding Hildur Guðnadóttir to my list of composers to follow.
I want Hildur to work on EVERYTHING. She's extremely talented and I definitely wouldn't mind hearing more of her stuff in movies more frequently.
 

JB1981

Member
Oct 28, 2017
9,420
I just didn't agree with her being mentally disturbed just cause she needed her son to shower her, that's all. Sure it could point to her having alzheimers. I'm just not convinced she's the one who abused Arthur, as opposed to her boyfriend doing it. If you feel like she abused him, that's fair, I can see that.
I actually wasn’t arguing for that. I don’t think she abused her son. I think her boyfriend, or whoever he was, probably did. And I think Alfred and Thomas were telling the truth about her being delusional. Also, Penny struck me as a woman who would be easily taken advantaged of with the right (or wrong) partner
 

Pachimari

Member
Oct 25, 2017
10,781
I actually wasn’t arguing for that. I don’t think she abused her son. I think her boyfriend, or whoever he was, probably did. And I think Alfred and Thomas were telling the truth about her being delusional. Also, Penny struck me as a woman who would be easily taken advantaged of with the right (or wrong) partner
Yeah, I can see this. :)
 

Fulminator

Member
Oct 25, 2017
6,103
saw it tonight

Phoenix was indeed amazing. Probably my favorite on screen Joker portrayal. His aesthetic in the movie was amazing as well.

Overall I’d say it was good but not great. Solid 7/10.

Is this meant to be a standalone film?
 

KoruptData

Member
Oct 25, 2017
362
So it’s been confirmed by Todd Phillips that he has 3 laughs in the movie. His condition laugh, his laugh to try to fit in with the people, and just one single genuine laugh at the end when he’s talking to the shrink. I believe he is the evil genius that can stand up to Batman and he’s just telling a story to the shrink that has some truth to it.
 

HotHamBoy

Member
Oct 27, 2017
12,499
I think this was a good movie, very well made. The point it tries to get across is clumsy, overly simplistic, and almost juvenile though.

It felt like the nature vs. nurture debate in movie form, at the end of which the movie gets on an almost literal soapbox and screams "IT'S NURTURE, YOU ASSHOLES".

Interesting take, but I'm unconvinced to say the least. The movie's obsession with its own "SOCIETY IS THE REAL VILLAIN" theme is taken to an extreme that becomes detrimental to the overall message, and to the character of the joker himself. The joker in this was solely portrayed as a victim of society, which I'm not sure is something I personally liked.

Beautiful cinematography, incredible score, amazing acting, and interesting ideas for sure, though.
See, all this stuff that's so on the nose and hamfisted and self-seriously pretensious?

That's why it's a good comic book movie! You know how many comics I've read that are just like that?

It's funny to me to think of a director trying to elevate "comic book movies" and still being very firmly a "comic book story" when it comes to the actual ideas present in the film.

Anyway, i love this movie. It's beautiful trash. I've seen it 3 times now (but i think i'm done for the foreseeable future)

Edit:
Also, i don't know that it's "society is the real villain" being the real message so much as "society doesn't know how to, or care to, accommodate the damaged, broken and dysfunctional." Is society a villain because it can't cope? I don't think so.

"The worst thing about having a mental illness is people expect you to act like you don't"

And i cant help but think of the scene in which Greg can't reach the door lock when i think about all of that.
 
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Moonkid

Avenger
Oct 25, 2017
2,746
Anybody else just love the "joke" that he locked the door a little bit to high for the dwarf to reach it. So cruel and evil, THAT was true Joker.
I thought it was pretty weak how the film tries to be sympathetic to marginalised peoples but also uses that character as a punching bag. That said, the moment where he realises he can't get out is one of the highlights of the movie, especially when Arthur scares him before lmao.
 

rashbeep

Member
Oct 27, 2017
3,574
Honestly I thought it was just ok

The backstory of gotham descending into chaos felt completely disconnected from Arthur so to see his big moment at the end felt like a huge wet fart

Liked phoenix though
 

Heromanz

Member
Oct 25, 2017
16,428
Honestly I thought it was just ok

The backstory of gotham descending into chaos felt completely disconnected from Arthur so to see his big moment at the end felt like a huge wet fart

Liked phoenix though
I think kind of the point. it is supposed to be disconnected from Arthur story because Arthur doesn't really care one way or another about it at the end of movie he just wants an audience with the masses. If it even happened in the first place.
 
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Cpt-GargameL

Cpt-GargameL

Member
Oct 27, 2017
6,407
I want Hildur Guðnadóttir and Hans Zimmer to work together on a movie. Her with her Cello and Hans with his drums.. by the gods.

Also, I didn't realize that she won the Premio Soundtrack Stars award at the 76th Venice International Film Festival for Joker.
 
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Greendomo

Member
Oct 25, 2017
227
The score was amazing, I will admit that. Some of the actual song selections were questionable though. I just don't see how anyone could be excited to see this Joker go up against Batman.
 

Nose Master

Member
Oct 27, 2017
1,502
Ill have to give it another shot eventually but, didnt love it. Too much build up for the final 30 minutes. You could watch a supercut version of this with the first 90 minutes edited down to 15 and you wouldnt miss much. Phoenix is solid as joker.
 
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Cpt-GargameL

Cpt-GargameL

Member
Oct 27, 2017
6,407
Ill have to give it another shot eventually but, didnt love it. Too much build up for the final 30 minutes. You could watch a supercut version of this with the first 90 minutes edited down to 15 and you wouldnt miss much. Phoenix is solid as joker.
It's very similar to Quentin Tarentino movies where they're a slow burn up until the final 20-30 min. Do with this in mind, I didn't mind it at all.
 

SSJDio

The Fallen
Apr 13, 2018
5,704

emir

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
1,500
Film is ranked 8th in the iMDB Top 250. Grrrrrrrreat fucking news. Hope that Warner Bros will continue these dark one-shots. I don't want anything else.
 
Nov 3, 2017
355
Pretty amazing how Arthur fleck is ascending on the stairs and looked like he struggles on his 9 to 5 job. But when he finally puts on the make up and dances while going down the stairs as if embracing a whole new kind of life.
 

Biggersmaller

Member
Oct 27, 2017
2,811
Minneapolis
Good discussion on Fighting in the War Room this week about Joker. They really nailed the variety of reasons why this movie sucks, IMO. Also they don't really spend much time talking about incels, which I was worried would be the case since Ehrlich is on it.


Discussion starts at 30:55.
Funny, I just listened to this. I generally enjoy the podcast and I have been entertained by other podcasts that did not like the Joker – but I feel this panel generally did a poor job criticizing it. A large portion of the discussion is around how this “wasn’t a movie” because “nothing happened” which isn’t really a particularly compelling critique. They also suggested it was derivative, but that hardly "nailed the variety of reasons why this movie sucks."
 
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