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JOKER |OT| Viviamo in una società |SPOILERS|

Kurdel

Member
Nov 7, 2017
9,577
because it doesn't go into mental health care issues as if it's a documentary?
Yes, exactly thank you. Here I was thinking you might be discussing with me in bad faith!

Thats why it’s brilliant! :)
I don't want a deep movie either, I am saying this movie takes a swing a misses badly on the themes of mental health.

A concise and simple Joker origin story could have been great. Don't start telling me the minutes long dance sequences and contrieved Thomas Wayne backstory were intended to be part of a purposefully "shallow" or light movie. This movie was high on it's own supply, and suffered for it.
 

Spyder_Monkey

Member
Oct 25, 2017
9,722
Taxi Driver had no more of a message than Joker. Man Goes Crazy in a Crazy World.
Taxi Driver isn't a particularly deep movie, but it executes on its single through line well while Joker has like multiple dots scattered throughout the film that barely go anywhere.

Joker is about as deep as Avatar. And there's nothing wrong with liking Avatar like there's nothing wrong with liking Joker. I just wish we can stop pretending this movie's some deep character/social piece while also pretending it's not supposed be about anything. It's style over substance, clearly made by a Scorsese fanboy with a few swipes at our mental health system, income inequality, even gun control and outrage culture to seem relavent and insightful but never amounts to anything or even gels together coherently.

Oh well this movie will be irrelevant in a few years anyway when Matt Reeve's Batman movie comes out.
 
Oct 25, 2017
13,250
A few small changes that I think would have really helped this:

1. Make the therapist someone who actually gives a shit so that when Arthur loses therapy and his medication it actually matters. Have Arthur read out some jokes to his therapist. As Jenny points out in the video, the movie is having its cake and eating it too when the therapist does not care during his sessions and then tells Arthur the city does not give a shit about him during the last one. Actually the movie and the director having their cake and eating it too is a recurring problem in general.

2. Don't make everyone Arthur kills an asshole. In the movie, Arthur only murders people who have very clearly done him wrong whether it be the Wayne Wall Street Trio, his coworker who talked shit behind his back, or Murray. At least one of those first two should not be an asshole. All of those killings can be flimsily justified as "they wronged him/were assholes."

3. You can keep all the Thomas Wayne and Arthur learning he was adopted stuff but remove the trip to Wayne Manor. Meeting Bruce felt wildly fanservice-y and unnecessary. The sequence that this should have played out with 1. Arthur read the letter 2. Thomas Wayne meeting the bathroom 3. Arthur goes to Arkham to learn the truth. The meeting of Arthur and Wayne at the bathroom would better if Wayne wasn't aware Arthur was aware of him and maybe he was asking for help for him and his mother who just had a stroke. This way you can make Wayne into an unsympathetic uncaring dick. Wayne had a right in the movie to be apprehensive about Arthur because he came to his house and put his fingers in his son's mouth.

While these changes in my opinion would not have made the film great or ironed out problematic moments but they would at least have better segued into the later half of the film. It would have enforced the themes of class disparity/eroding social safety nets etc and make it feel more cohesive.
 

Fulminator

Member
Oct 25, 2017
8,010
I don’t think it has a message tbh

i think all that stuff is just background noise in Arthur’s story. Circumstantial (Meds getting cut being an exception).

also I don’t know how anyone could not like the dancing. Phoenix killed it.
 

sibarraz

Avenger
Oct 27, 2017
9,678
Im impressed how many people from my work and personal circle decided to watch the movie on this week, it feels that the curiosity of what all the buzz was about led to some people who werent interested in the movie at the beggining decided to watch it
 

Soneji

Member
Oct 29, 2017
1,291

Reposted from my thread from earlier, sorry about the confusion there, honestly the whole Jenny/Jack thing went over my head when I posted it. Y’all should be up on Nicholson’s vids though, she’s up there with Lindsay Ellis, Folding Ideas, and Patrick H. Willems, can def recommend. She goes into the problems with this movie’s lack of a coherent theme, and honestly echoes a lot of my own thoughts regarding this movie’s problems
I have loved Jenny since discovering her a few months ago, and I usually hard agree with her view on things but this is the first time our opinions didn't match up. Makes sense it would be a divisive movie like the Joker, with a hard to pin down main theme and enigmatic character. This was my quickly typed up phone response in the youtube comments on the video :

I knew it was bound to happen eventually that I'd disagree with you on something, and it makes sense for it to be a divisive movie like Joker. I can understand why the movie wouldn't work for someone who needs to find a central theme to latch onto, because it throws a lot in the audiences way and it's up to them to decide. For me the most focused theme it does have, is sadly one you fell victim to yourself : the dangers of media sensationalism and fearmongering. You go to see the movie in a drive-thru because the media tried to make this movie the next scapegoat for mass shootings, and you tried to interpret everything through some weird Todd Phillip's lense as the media threw his interviews into your face trying to make people hate this movie. The media try to give a grander meaning to Arthur's killings but they all have simple, base emotional motivations behind them. Fear/survival on the train, anger/survival on the other clown, prideful anger at Murray for making fun of him. It's a very poignant message for this day and age.


The complaints about Gotham's realism in terms of the bad stuff it throws Arthur's way is weird to me, as you seem to know of the city's lore of being a shithole beyond most any real world one. This is also something to consider when thinking about the social worker, who must be swamped with patients therefore exhausted, and goes into probably several of those meetings knowing of the impending shutdown. She's also beholden to the job when it comes to patients like Arthur who are a potential danger to themselves and others. From what little we see, she's not doing some amazing therapy work with Arthur, which is understandable for a myriad of reasons. Her remark about the world not giving a shit about people like Arthur just is actual real talk between people and not needing to be trying for anything more.
 

Kurdel

Member
Nov 7, 2017
9,577
also I don’t know how anyone could not like the dancing. Phoenix killed it.
They felt so out of place, and lasted way too long.

Like, I needed him social worker or boss to tell him to stop dancing or something. Have it be part of his repressed persona, or I don't know. There is no catharsis is seeing his gangly ass writhe around after killing those guys. You just get into the bathroom and suddenly you have the first dance scene. You're just sitting there, and what are you suppose to think? It took me out of the movie, I was just sitting there thinking about Joaquin's performance.

"Wow he sure killed those people, look at him dance!"

It was just akwards for me, but that is my take. A lot of people love it, more power to them!
 

KoruptData

Member
Oct 25, 2017
377
What if Phillips and Phoenix came out in a few months and said, they wanted to make a movie about the Joker where he is having one of his sessions with a shrink, and Joker is just giving them one of the many “you wanna know how I got these scars” stories. Nothing more than that.

Did they not succeed in that? Did they not make the perfect Joker origin story? You want to call it an irrelevant movie, you want to call it a bad movie, half baked, etc, etc. So what? It exist now, It has people talking, it’s making a lot of money, it may win some prestigious awards. It’s ok not to like the chaos, but you have to accept that chaos exist.
 
Oct 25, 2017
13,250
What if Phillips and Phoenix came out in a few months and said, they wanted to make a movie about the Joker where he is having one of his sessions with a shrink, and Joker is just giving them one of the many “you wanna know how I got these scars” stories. Nothing more than that.
That does not work at all when you introduce the therapist at the end of the movie.
 

Bad Vibes Dio

The Fallen
Apr 13, 2018
6,241
What if Phillips and Phoenix came out in a few months and said, they wanted to make a movie about the Joker where he is having one of his sessions with a shrink, and Joker is just giving them one of the many “you wanna know how I got these scars” stories. Nothing more than that.

Did they not succeed in that? Did they not make the perfect Joker origin story?
No.
If it was that, it should've been in the fucking movie.
 
Oct 25, 2017
13,250
But it was in the movie, at the end, with the shrink. Quit trying to take the movie so literal.
Then the movie was a worthless waste of fucking time.

"Lolol he trolled the therapist, none of it happened" totally robs the movie of any kind of meaning and purpose. A character study with social commentary that neither aspires to study its character or comment on society is worthless.
 

KoruptData

Member
Oct 25, 2017
377
Then the movie was a worthless waste of fucking time.

"Lolol he trolled the therapist, none of it happened" totally robs the movie of any kind of meaning and purpose. A character study with social commentary that neither aspires to study its character or comment on society is worthless.
Okay, lets say you're right. It's all bullshit.

Then what was the point of this fucking movie? Especially if you never even see the actual Joker in the film
That’s the Jokers message! Your getting it!
 

DoubleTake

Member
Oct 25, 2017
3,549
Then the movie was a worthless waste of fucking time.

"Lolol he trolled the therapist, none of it happened" totally robs the movie of any kind of meaning and purpose. A character study with social commentary that neither aspires to study its character or comment on society is worthless.
God thissss...so the point of the movie was to troll everyone....

"BuT ThAt ToTaLlY mAkEs SeNsE fOr A jOkEr MoViE!!"

Yes I took the time to type that out like that...and no I didn't need to...but it made sense for the point(HINT HINT) I was trying to get across....
 

fallengorn

Community Resettler
Member
Oct 25, 2017
2,365
New York City
Finally saw it tonight. It was... okay. I like some of the ideas they try to inject into into like grounding it in 70s NYC Gotham or having Joker be this figure that comes along at the right place at the right time that makes everything come to a head in the city. But there are things (like the Sophie stuff) that make me think that, if it was in the hands of a better writer/director, it would've been something special.
 

Gunter

Member
Mar 30, 2019
90
Okay, lets say you're right. It's all bullshit.

Then what was the point of this fucking movie? Especially if you never even see the actual Joker in the film
That's like saying Total Recall is pointless because one interpretation of the film is that the whole thing was in Quaid's mind. The movie is open to interpretation. That is good.
 

Bad Vibes Dio

The Fallen
Apr 13, 2018
6,241
That's like saying Total Recall is pointless because one interpretation of the film is that the whole thing was in Quaid's mind. The movie is open to interpretation. That is good.
Movies being open to interpretation is good, never saw Total Recall but it works damn well in King of Comedy. It wasn't done well here though, some of us can't pretend that Joker never existed outside of this movie and that he doesn't already have a long extensive history as a character.
 

Vern

Member
Oct 26, 2017
3,870
The only problem with the dancing and the shirtless scenes is there wasn’t more of them. Or at least more similar scenes showing who he was, his wretched existence... definitely wouldn’t be cutting them out. Those kinds of scenes needed to be expanded upon. He’s much more of a character and the world feels much more real with that sort of shit.
 

Jyrii

Member
Oct 27, 2017
502
Helsinki, Finland
I saw the film last night and thought it was pretty good, but not amazing.

What annoyed me was that they made the age difference between Joker and Bruce Wayne so big. Especially when the only reason for this seems to be that they wanted to have Joker's influence to get Bruce's parents killed. We really don't need to see the demise of his parents again. It has been used so damn many times it has lost any effect.
 

m23

Member
Oct 25, 2017
3,076
The first dancing scene was one of my favourite scenes in the whole movie, I loved it.
 

CharGP02A

Member
Nov 23, 2017
1,311
I saw it last night and thought it was pretty good. I enjoyed it more than the last few MCU movies. I'd love to see this Joker go one on one with the great one (Batman) at some point. If this next Batman movie ends up being good, I really hope these two have a showdown after that.
 

Fercho

Member
Nov 3, 2017
2,832
One scene that always gets me (have seen the movie 3 times already) is when he gets pulled out of the police car by "his gang" and wakes up, he starts this little dance , he spends the whole movie dancing but that little dance is different, is like a death snore of some sorts, like Arhur´s personality finally dying but refusing to, it's so sad.
 

cognizant

Member
Dec 19, 2017
5,535
Blank Check Podcast pointed this out but why wasn't the Venice Film Festival Golden Lion Winner title card at the front of the movie.

Its customary for winners of awards at major film festivals to have title cards like that. Its a free brag.
I listened to that episode yesterday, and they made a great point to focus on Todd Phillip's filmography, to give the movie context. He reminds of Zack Synder, constantly focusing on unpleasant protagonists with nothing substantial to say on the human condition.