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JOKER |OT| Viviamo in una società |SPOILERS|

Greg NYC3

Member
Oct 26, 2017
5,129
Miami
My genius thought this up in 5 seconds

Joker is a metacommentary on the white working class.

Joker represents said class. Short sighted. Blames everyone else for their problems that could have easily been avoided. And again, Fleck's pity rant at the end totally screamed how self centered the WWC are.

Noticed how Arthur tried to bond with Thomas Wayne only to be punched and threatened to be killed. Similar to how the wwc always cozy up to the rich conservatives assholes who keeps screwing them over.

Meanwhile, he just kills the Jay Leno character, the well meaning but condescending rich liberal who either gave a damn about him or at least was smart enough to fake it. And again, he at least called Joker on his toxic mindset, something a liberal is more likely to do.

The brown looking kids stealing Arthur's sign at the beginning of the movie represents the wwc's view on latinos trying take their jobs.

The first black psychiatrist not looking like she could be bothered to listened to Arthur is how the wwc's view black people as self centered and lazy. And I don't think I have to explain how Joker killing the second one symbolizes how it was the wwc who were committing terrorist attacks during the Civil Rights Era and even today.

Zazie's character represents how the wwc thinks black people should act. Always being kind and supportive to the wwc while not reciprocating the favor back. Noticed how during Joker's hallucinations of the relationship, we never see him imagine bonding with Zazie's daughter or support whatever thing Zazie does. Or even THINKS she does. The emotional support was one sided.

The clown protesters are the alt right. They put Joker on an undeserving pedal and it feeds into his toxic behavior. Like how Nazis do that towards the wwc "No you're not racist. They really are like that"

The three yuppies on the subway represents how the wwc won't do anything about a problem until it affects them. Harassing that woman? It's wrong, but what do you want me to do? Not my problem. When they turn their ire on me? I'm bringing out the gun.

Speaking of which, Arthur's complete mishandling of firearm safety is peak white working class.

So guys? "I agree" or "I really agree" or "what the fuck is wrong with you, NoName999"? :P

Edit: The 2nd therapist can also represent sincere liberals trying to listen to the wwc. And like Joker, the wwc kills that kindness by continuing to vote Republican
I don't believe that this is the commentary that Todd was aiming for at all but he may have unintentionally or unconsciously Incorporated these themes into the Joker.
 

Umbrella Carp

Member
Jan 16, 2019
2,402
A few small changes that I think would have really helped this:

1. Make the therapist someone who actually gives a shit so that when Arthur loses therapy and his medication it actually matters. Have Arthur read out some jokes to his therapist. As Jenny points out in the video, the movie is having its cake and eating it too when the therapist does not care during his sessions and then tells Arthur the city does not give a shit about him during the last one. Actually the movie and the director having their cake and eating it too is a recurring problem in general.

2. Don't make everyone Arthur kills an asshole. In the movie, Arthur only murders people who have very clearly done him wrong whether it be the Wayne Wall Street Trio, his coworker who talked shit behind his back, or Murray. At least one of those first two should not be an asshole. All of those killings can be flimsily justified as "they wronged him/were assholes."

3. You can keep all the Thomas Wayne and Arthur learning he was adopted stuff but remove the trip to Wayne Manor. Meeting Bruce felt wildly fanservice-y and unnecessary. The sequence that this should have played out with 1. Arthur read the letter 2. Thomas Wayne meeting the bathroom 3. Arthur goes to Arkham to learn the truth. The meeting of Arthur and Wayne at the bathroom would better if Wayne wasn't aware Arthur was aware of him and maybe he was asking for help for him and his mother who just had a stroke. This way you can make Wayne into an unsympathetic uncaring dick. Wayne had a right in the movie to be apprehensive about Arthur because he came to his house and put his fingers in his son's mouth.

While these changes in my opinion would not have made the film great or ironed out problematic moments but they would at least have better segued into the later half of the film. It would have enforced the themes of class disparity/eroding social safety nets etc and make it feel more cohesive.
Great post. Spot on with everything.

The scene with Bruce also felt to me like hamfisted manipulation of the audience. They are clearly trying to present Arthur as some sort of very strange creeper who comfortably touches children he barely knows in creepy ways like putting his thumbs inside his mouth to form the big smile. Yes you do need to get across to the audience that this is not a good guy, he is deranged, delusional and dangerous but you don't need to play up something as emotionally charged as harming children or creepy men hanging around and being touchy feely with them to get your point across. That only serves to vilify mental illness as inherently evil when it's not.
 

JB1981

Member
Oct 28, 2017
10,040
I just hate the whole concept of the Joker being a mentally ill patient. He’s not.

Joker chooses evil because that’s the only rational choice in his mind
 

Kurdel

Member
Nov 7, 2017
9,670
I just hate the whole concept of the Joker being a mentally ill patient. He’s not.

Joker chooses evil because that’s the only rational choice in his mind
Yeah why even bother attaching the Batman franchise, other than obvious marketing reasons?

Performance was intense, but this was a terrible Joker.
 

KoruptData

Member
Oct 25, 2017
377
I just hate the whole concept of the Joker being a mentally ill patient. He’s not.

Joker chooses evil because that’s the only rational choice in his mind
Being evil is not a societal norm. We don’t accept evil as normal behavior. Of course being evil is going to be categorized as a mental illness.
 

captive

Member
Oct 25, 2017
5,511
Houston
Yeah why even bother attaching the Batman franchise, other than obvious marketing reasons?

Performance was intense, but this was a terrible Joker.
I don't think it was a terrible joker. But after the movie all i could think of was, man that was joaquin phoenix, even with makeup on. Whereas i dont even recognize heath ledger as the joker.


i thought it was good, not great.

Though i definitely want a batman set in this reality. Its extremely dark, violent and gritty.
 

Moff

Member
Oct 26, 2017
2,215
The movie felt like it took taxi driver and king of comedy and poured them into a joker mug. I enjoyed it at a lot. I am still thinking about what was real and what wasnt. The end at the comedy show felt like a dream, kissing the old lady, the audience cheering, the revolution taking off, wayne dying.
 

BobbeMalle

Member
Dec 5, 2017
671
Just rewatched the scene where Arthur shoots De Niro, it's fucking chilling
The italian dub also is incredible, major props to our guys
 

Gypsie

Member
Oct 29, 2017
723
Had a few hours free on Thursday afternoon and saw it alone.

I was personally blown away, music was incredible and his performance was incredible.

Loved it.
 

Dennis8K

Member
Oct 25, 2017
10,637
The most mind-blowing movie of 2019.

Just ask Murray.


Thank you, thank you, I will be here all night!
 

Melkr_

Member
Oct 25, 2017
2,346
The movie can't have a message coopted by incels if it barely has anything to say.
It HaS nOtHiNg To SaY!

I see this being said by a lot of liberal-leaning critics who input their politics into their critique of the movie. Maybe it would have rated better with them if Joker ended up dying at the hands of Batgirl who is actually a young Hillary Clinton in disguise.

The movie has lots of things to say. It is okay if you don't like what it has to say, though.

Critics have really shown their asses with the drama around this movie though. Specially compared to how they rate Marvel's popcorn flicks.
 

DecoReturns

Member
Oct 27, 2017
12,447
I’m not as high on the movie as most but I absolutely loved the original score.

Also kinda wish the film ended with the smile lol.
 

Kurdel

Member
Nov 7, 2017
9,670
I see this being said by a lot of liberal-leaning critics who input their politics into their critique of the movie. Maybe it would have rated better with them if Joker ended up dying at the hands of Batgirl who is actually a young Hillary Clinton in disguise.
The issue people have with the themes of the movie is that hey feel undercooked and even sometimes internaly contradictory, not that it needed and extra protagonist and potentially more undercooked ideas.

SAying you felt like this movie was a three course meal to you is 100% valid, I can't take that a way from you. Framing people who left the cinema wanting more as "liberal critics who crave Clinton" shows your ass more than anything.
 

Violence Jack

Member
Oct 25, 2017
10,395
Saw it last night, and it's up there for my favorite movie of the year so far. However, the fact that this is a standalone movie and not going to lead into the new Batman movie is disappointing to me. No way Phoenix doesn't walk away with at least an Oscar nomination.

I should've seen that Zazie Beetz character wasn't real from how she reacted about Arthur following her.
 

Kurdel

Member
Nov 7, 2017
9,670
Saw it last night, and it's up there for my favorite movie of the year so far. However, the fact that this is a standalone movie and not going to lead into the new Batman movie is disappointing to me. No way Phoenix doesn't walk away with at least an Oscar nomination.

I should've seen that Zazie Beetz character wasn't real from how she reacted about Arthur following her.
With the box office numbers this movie is doing, any plan on making this a one off is surely out the window.

He might not be the "real" joker in the next Batman movies, but we will definitely see Joaquin again.
 
OP
OP
Cpt-GargameL

Cpt-GargameL

Member
Oct 27, 2017
6,606
It HaS nOtHiNg To SaY!

I see this being said by a lot of liberal-leaning critics who input their politics into their critique of the movie. Maybe it would have rated better with them if Joker ended up dying at the hands of Batgirl who is actually a young Hillary Clinton in disguise.

The movie has lots of things to say. It is okay if you don't like what it has to say, though.

Critics have really shown their asses with the drama around this movie though. Specially compared to how they rate Marvel's popcorn flicks.
.
 

balgajo

Member
Oct 27, 2017
679
Just watched it again. First movie that I bought tickets to watch again. It's crazy how the movie delivered all of that feeling rollercoaster again. The curious thing is that I expected the theather room to be empty but there were a lot of people and lines to buy ticket. Wtf. I wonder if people are watching of the first time or are rewatching it.
 

Tuorom

Member
Oct 30, 2017
2,225
Just came out of it. Wow it was very unsettling. The tension just never lets up the whole movie. Even after he has fully become the Joker persona I was waiting for crazy shit to just happen. The whole first half was anxiety with that damn soundtrack playing as he's around Zazie and I was so scared about what might happen.

It is a great character study. I really want him back as Joker for a Batman movie. He was fantastic. He really felt more like the comic Joker (as opposed to Ledgers straight chaotic evil). Like how he just shoots Murray then sits there and is bouncing his legs like no big deal, then gets up shoots him again because he thinks it's funny, then it looks like he will shoot again and decides not to and just nonchalantly flips/throws the gun away.

There was one really cringey moment with my theater audience. It was when the meme happens (with Randall in the apartment). Someone burst out with a really high forced laugh at the doorlock.
It was bad. Ugh.

Me too. Having said that, I did really enjoy the bloody footprints and Scooby Doo chase scene finale. Incorporated Joker's goofball, cartoonish comedy aspects with the brutal, murderous, ultra-violent side quite well in my opinion.
I agree.

A scene that really sticks out to me was when he was about to go on to the show. It looks like he is doing another dance routine but it looks less like a dance and more like he is transforming. I think it's a reference to when someone mentions werewolves (I think Arthur mentioned it). It looks like his structure is changing and he has this really weird body posture going on, then right before the curtain opens he assumes this really almost regal straight backed posture with his one foot on his toes.
Then he comes on stage as almost an entirely different person.
 

Tuorom

Member
Oct 30, 2017
2,225
Also, I liked what they did with the mom. I thought she was such a sweet lady he was taking care of, but the wheels start coming off the rails and the train is hurtling down a mountain.
It really hit me when she was like "You want to be a comedian? Don't you have to be funny to be one?". I was like, what? From this sweet woman? Ruthless. Then you find out. Some real Mindhunter shit.
 

dragonbane

Member
Oct 26, 2017
2,675
Germany
Damn Joker is really landing hard in Germany. My premium showing was sold out today and they actually brought out a performer in full Joker gear mimicking Phoenix's performance. Just before the curtain lifted he did the dance set to the OST while rambling about society and that we should break the wheel.

My showing was super into it and also applauded the film at the end. Quite the rare reaction here.

Great movie. Watching Phoenix was a delight and it was tense throughout. Stunning OST and cinematography.
 

Refrain

Member
Oct 27, 2017
412
Looks like the movie is pretty successful here in Japan. It has ben topping the chart for 2 weeks straight and people seem to love it. Reviews scores are really high too.
 
Jun 22, 2019
322
Like the multiple scenes of him shirtless and contorting his body

Yes Todd, he's skinny. WE FUCKING GET IT.
But he's TwIsTeD! You get it!? He's twistedddd! It's so much better than a forehead tattoo that we gotta focus on it a whooole lot!

(As someone who generally loves when figurative concepts are represented literally, it was a bummer to see how... tactless it felt here.)
 
Jun 23, 2019
860
Just got out of the movie. Wow. I’m still trying to process it. Also, as someone who suffers from clinical depression with anxiety, this movie hits you hard. Joaquin’s portrayal was masterful. Just ugh I can’t stop gushing about this movie. Definitely better than Heath Ledger without even thinking about it.
 

Readler

Member
Oct 6, 2018
336
I really really wanted to love this, but I just like it.

Production, music, and of course the performances were top-notch, but I dunno, it felt sort of hamfisted at times.
 

carlsojo

Member
Oct 28, 2017
9,180
San Francisco Bay Area
Just got out of the movie. Wow. I’m still trying to process it. Also, as someone who suffers from clinical depression with anxiety, this movie hits you hard. Joaquin’s portrayal was masterful. Just ugh I can’t stop gushing about this movie. Definitely better than Heath Ledger without even thinking about it.
I saw it a week ago and I'm still processing it.
 

Hyun Sai

Member
Oct 27, 2017
4,362
I saw it yesterday, that was a great fucking movie.Top Comic material with The Dark Knight and Logan. But even f it wasn't, I fail to grasp how this could be seen as validating incels or causing mass shootings. Did the US media lost his mind just because of "Eat the rich"?
 
Oct 27, 2017
10,634
I finally saw it. I thought it was pretty great. BUT. The Batman origin story was wayyyyyyy too on the nose. Like they did not need to show the whole thing...just a hint of it. Also I thought the Joker rant at the end was too blatant with the meaning of the film and maybe should've been half as long. I was compelled the whole time.
 

balgajo

Member
Oct 27, 2017
679
Fuuuck...I keep on reading those threads and articles and now I want to see it for the third time... :(