JOKER |OT| Viviamo in una società |SPOILERS|

[Ushojax]

A friend said to me after he saw it. He didn't realise Arthur imagined the whole relationship.

Subtle storytelling is a dying art, more and more people need everything explained directly with no room for doubt.

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How could anyone not get that? Right at the beginning of the movie Arthur drifts off into a fantasy where he appears in the audience of the TV show he's watching and has a clearly delusional conversation with the host. A large part of the uneasy tension of the film comes from the audience wondering whether Arthur is actually doing these things or whether he's just fantasising as his mental state degrades.

 

[electroshockwave]

A friend said to me after he saw it. He didn't realise Arthur imagined the whole relationship.

Subtle storytelling is a dying art, more and more people need everything explained directly with no room for doubt.

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And people wonder why they had to have flashbacks showing that she wasn't actually there in previous scenes...

 

[carlosrox]

There's a weird authenticity to this movie/world.

So fucking well done.

I had a feeling when I heard the very first thing on the radio that the movie was gonna go places. Perfect introduction to the world. The movie nails the urban decay aspect so damn well.

There's very little joy in this movie, in the best way possible. There's like 2 or 3 really dark jokes in the movie. There was one part where I kinda wanted to laugh at a dark joke but was unsure (forgot what it was now) and then another part where another audience member kinda wanted to laugh as well. The dark comedy was so well done.

Like, this was a true DARK comedy. Fuck. The more I think about the movie the more I love it.

It was unsettling and uncomfortable but you also can't look away.

The acting was great. Joaquin nailed the shit. I'd love to see him reprise the role somehow.

 

[Galkinator]

A friend said to me after he saw it. He didn't realise Arthur imagined the whole relationship.

Subtle storytelling is a dying art, more and more people need everything explained directly with no room for doubt.

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That was so clear though, wasn't even subtle.

I'd think most people were casting doubt on the relationship in the first place, but then near the end you get these things:
- He goes to her apartment and she's terrified of him, and asking him something like "you're the guy from down the hall right?"
- We see the same scenes that was previously with her, shown again briefly but this time without her

I mean, this explicitly shows he's been imagining the whole thing. Not sure how one can miss it.

 

[carlosrox]

....did he kill his neighbor..?

That's meant to be open to interpretation right?

 

[VaanXSnake]

That was so clear though, wasn't even subtle.

I'd think most people were casting doubt on the relationship in the first place, but then near the end you get these things:
- He goes to her apartment and she's terrified of him, and asking him something like "you're the guy from down the hall right?"
- We see the same scenes that was previously with her, shown again briefly but this time without her

I mean, this explicitly shows he's been imagining the whole thing. Not sure how one can miss it.

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It was pretty clear the moment she talked to him... I thought re-showing every scenes they were together was unneccessary but it seems that it wasn't even enough for some people lmao... no offense but some people are dumber than rocks.

....did he kill his neighbor..?

That's meant to be open to interpretation right?

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i think he killed her.

 

[carlosrox]

I thought their relationship was highly improbable cuz obviously Arthur was really fucked up but I still thought it was real until the end reveal.

I believed it was real. They made it work. It was a nice trick. Like I said, I definitely thought it was a total "yeah right" moment when he suddenly kissed her and got into a relationship with someone he didn't know but I also didn't think it was a fantasy.

------

I thought they built up everything in the movie so damn well. Such excellent setups all the way through. As a whole and individual scenes.

 

[Uncivilized Elk]

And people wonder why they had to have flashbacks showing that she wasn't actually there in previous scenes...

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But, uh, it sounds like the flashbacks didn't help anyway, so may as well take them out?

 

[Cubo]

....did he kill his neighbor..?

That's meant to be open to interpretation right?

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I'd say he must have killed her because otherwise she would have called the cops and he would have been arrested 15 minutes after. But the script is so bad that I'm not too confident in that. (I think the cops should have arrested him after they discovered her mother had died at the hospital and that didn't happen neither so...)

 

[electroshockwave]

But, uh, it sounds like the flashbacks didn't help anyway, so may as well take them out?

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My point is if you take them out, even more people miss that it was in his head because they're not paying attention or need to be spoon fed information. I'd prefer the flashbacks to not be in there but I can see why they were.

 

[Uncivilized Elk]

My point is if you take them out, even more people miss that it was in his head because they're not paying attention or need to be spoon fed information. I'd prefer the flashbacks to not be in there but I can see why they were.

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They should probably also put in a warning that smoking causes serious health problems into the stairway dance scene.

 

[Naijaboy]

A sympathetic Joker. My god what have you done?

As for the movie itself... I don't know. I agree that Joaquin Phoenix did a great performance as Joker, but I also agree that the meaning of the film is hard to decipher and I don't really want to give the director credit for something he may have accidentally stumbled on.

Also, it's slower than I had anticipated, bitcwhen things heat up it gets intense. I like a Joker that is unpredictable, especially the scene when you don't know whether or not he was going to kill that dwarf. Still, the message itself was muddled.

6/10.

 

[carlosrox]

Are people saying they knew all along the relationship was fantasy or just that the flashbacks weren't necessary?

I didn't need the flashbacks but I did need her reaction to him in her apartment. She spells it out clearly in that scene.

I mentioned it earlier but even though I thought their relationship seemed like convenient BS for the movie, I was able to suspend my disbelief and buy into them being a thing. When he kissed her my first thought was "oh come on yeah right" but then I also didn't read it as his fantasy.

 

[m_shortpants]

Did he actually ask about and buy the gun from his coworker? Or did the coworker set him up?

I feel like with the delusions it could go either way.

 

[Deleted member 60582]

I'd say he must have killed her because otherwise she would have called the cops and he would have been arrested 15 minutes after. But the script is so bad that I'm not too confident in that. (I think the cops should have arrested him after they discovered her mother had died at the hospital and that didn't happen neither so...)

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The cinematographer confirmed he didn't kill her.

https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.in...ur-kills-sophia-debate-answer-1202184505/amp/

 

[Hugare]

The cinematographer confirmed he didn't kill her.

https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.in...ur-kills-sophia-debate-answer-1202184505/amp/

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"Arthur is killing people who've wronged him in a certain way, and Sophie never wronged him."

That's exactly what I have interpreted and mentioned in this thread before

His mom, his coworker, the tv show host ... They all did him wrong at some point

I was baffled by people saying that he killed her offscreen. They havent got his morality right.

 

[Gawge]

I thought the flashbacks of Sophie not really being there were really dumb and really took me out of the movie at the time. It just felt so silly, and being treated like an idiot.

I also thought there was too much Bruce Wayne stuff, also felt a little pandering and the film really didn't need it. Maybe just have the gate scene but not that alley scene again (this has probably been discussed to death).

Otherwise, very enjoyable film. I don't think it is groundbreaking, nor particularly controversial. I also don't really think it has much to say.

But great performances, a good film.

 

[Deleted member 2109]

And people wonder why they had to have flashbacks showing that she wasn't actually there in previous scenes...

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I am pretty sure those are meant to be Arthur realizing it and not for the audience.

 

[Deleted member 2426]

I'd say he must have killed her because otherwise she would have called the cops and he would have been arrested 15 minutes after. But the script is so bad that I'm not too confident in that. (I think the cops should have arrested him after they discovered her mother had died at the hospital and that didn't happen neither so...)

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There were like 6 incidents when he should have been arrested yeah. That's when the movie start to tumble down. The first hour is magnificent though.

 

[carlosrox]

The movie is somewhat of a Greek tragedy.

His dreams came true in the end (obviously not how he imagined) but he'd become too unstable to appreciate it. Had he been more stable minded he could have had some ironic fame. But was already too late for him. He had already gone down such a dark path and he was already lost.

I mean, yes, Arthur made it onto the show and was treated as a joke but he had the potential to make some good of it. He could have swayed public opinion, he could have improved, or he could have just embraced how people saw him.

He got a massive opportunity at the end but it was already too late for him. Things could have gone very differently for him had he made some different choices.

I appreciate that angle very much.

 

[Deleted member 60582]

"Arthur is killing people who've wronged him in a certain way, and Sophie never wronged him."

That's exactly what I have interpreted and mentioned in this thread before

His mom, his coworker, the tv show host ... They all did him wrong at some point

I was baffled by people saying that he killed her offscreen. They havent got his morality right.

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Yeah I don't understand it either. There was nothing that would indicate he killed her whatsoever, aside from sirens outside that were due to the riots and completely unconnected.

 

[carlosrox]

I came to this thread late so I dunno if this has been posted yet. Good stuff.

I agree with it all so far 10 mins into the vid.


At this point he's talking about the neighbor twist and how he thinks it all works, people saying this movie lacked a setup when in fact it was all set up, etc.

There was nothing that would indicate he killed her whatsoever,

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There was the entire gun to the head motif. I could see it going either way.


I can't put my finger on why exactly but that scene with him getting into the fridge really made an impression on me. It's just so unsettling.

 

[Bad Advice]

Finally watched it. What a masterpiece. One of those movies that stay with you for a long time.

If Joaquin Phoenix doesn't get a Oscar I'm going to be mad. What a masterful performance. On par if not even better than Heath Ledger.

Going to rewatch soon tbh.

 

[Einchy]

Joker's skateboard trick

 

[selfReg]

OK, THPS one killed me.

 

[Cubo]

"Arthur is killing people who've wronged him in a certain way, and Sophie never wronged him."

That's exactly what I have interpreted and mentioned in this thread before

His mom, his coworker, the tv show host ... They all did him wrong at some point

I was baffled by people saying that he killed her offscreen. They havent got his morality right.

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I do agree with that, he doesn't have a real motive to kill her, at least not in the same way the other murders happen. I think this Joker is no way a sociopath as Nicholson's or Ledger's were. He is just reacting to people doing him wrong, which is the reason I could never buy him as a real villain.

Anyway, I could actually believe he killled her if it was a way of showing us he was moving one step up the ladder of lunacy/ villainy. But It wouldn't make any sense to not show it on screen if that was the case, so I keep blaming it on the script. Does the writer explain why she didn't call the police after her disturbing neighbour broke into her house with a gun?

 

[Cpt-GargameL]

Another thing to keep in mind is that after he kills, he dances.

 

[Gunter]

Did he actually ask about and buy the gun from his coworker? Or did the coworker set him up?

I feel like with the delusions it could go either way.

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We're shown that he was given the gun outright, without him asking for it. Then later the guy claimed Arthur tried to buy it from him. There's definitely evidence that what we saw was a delusion and he actually bought the gun. It happened right after we saw Arthur fantasize about Murray, where he said he would have loved to have him as a son. We know Arthur deeply yearns to be accepted by a father figure. When the coworker gave him the gun he told Arthur that he was looking out for him and said "you know you're mah boy". The boss told Arthur that the other guys thought he was a freak. Would he have really given a gun to someone he thought was a freak?

 

[N.Domixis]

Movie was great. Did not expect it. Usually do t care about DC movies

 

[Resident4t.]

i think the trailer was better than the movie? I just need time to process it, but thematically it seems a bit juvenile. It's like very well made fluff or something.

 

[carlosrox]

No idea how people can sit through a movie this catatonic and come out being unimpressed, or claiming it has nothing to say.

It's almost like a Texas Chainsaw Massacre of our time.

It deserves all the success and then some.

 

[DoubleTake]

No idea how people can sit through a movie this catatonic and come out being unimpressed, or claiming it has nothing to say.

It's almost like a Texas Chainsaw Massacre of our time.

It deserves all the success and then some.

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They have higher standards for what constitutes impressive or competent social commentary...

 

[HououinKyouma]

Saw it last night and it's honestly all I can keep thinking about. Just a filthy, grimy train wreck that you can't take your eyes away from. Stunning film.

 

[carlosrox]

They have higher standards for what constitutes impressive or competent social commentary...

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lol sure they do.

Name me all these movies that are similar to Joker but blow it out of the water.

For a movie with such incompetent social commentary, it's sure got a TON of people analyzing and talking about the messages in the film/the film itself.

Even if one makes the claim the movie has nothing to say, or they don't like what the movie's about, to downplay the craft of the film is some silly shit.

The movie isn't just like the 2 movies everyone parrots: Taxi Driver and King of Comedy, it also has shades of American Psycho, The Machinist, Dark Knight, Falling Down, and more.

It's crazy to see this movie as anything but a dark masterpiece.

 

[KingSnake]

Just got out of the movie. What an intense experience. Joaquin's acting was a masterpiece. The whole movie was great, I really liked the slow descent into madness combined with how he still keeps some deranged sense of right and wrong and doesn't kill indiscriminately. Maybe except at the end when he kind of goes fully insane and transforms into the comic book character. There are so many incredible scenes doubled by an amazing soundtrack. I have to see it again.

For some reason this movie made me want to see again One Flew Over the Cuckoo's Nest.

 

[Ferrs]

Saw it yesterday, expected it worse but turned out pretty alright, but not a masterpiece to me. Film is as sublte as a rock. Phoenix performance though, that was the masterpiece in this movie. He absolutely deserves the Oscar.

 

[Galkinator]

So I finally gave some of the OST a listen! I'm not sure if it's been praised or not but the soundtrack is really damn powerful.
They really nailed the feelings of despair, chaos, emotional wreck in some of the tracks which combined with Phoenix's performance it's clear how some scenes convey so many feelings in its viewers.
What are yall favorites? Currently thinking this might be the #1:

 

[Why would you do that?]

Saw the movie yesterday. I only saw it because it was filmed right where one of my family members lives (who was actually paid to have them film there).

The movie was interesting because I normally feel like I have someone, anyone to latch on to and sympathize with. But I didn't get that at all for this movie, so it kinda just felt like I was just staring at a screen for two hours, wondering just how bad (i.e. evil or uncomfortable) the next event/scene would be. It was a weird feeling, though I did think find the movie to be enjoyable. But it really felt like a detached experience for me.

 

[Madison]

i got out of the movie thinking it was a 7 but it might be a 6.5

Its good but i think that its message is presented with flaws. I also dont really like Phillips"s direction

 

[Halbrand]

Blu-ray.com has the Blu-ray release at December 17, can it really be that early? That would be December 3 for the digital.

 

[uncelestial]

Reposted from my thread from earlier, sorry about the confusion there, honestly the whole Jenny/Jack thing went over my head when I posted it. Y'all should be up on Nicholson's vids though, she's up there with Lindsay Ellis, Folding Ideas, and Patrick H. Willems, can def recommend. She goes into the problems with this movie's lack of a coherent theme, and honestly echoes a lot of my own thoughts regarding this movie's problems

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She's nowhere near Lindsay Ellis - who edits together actual videos and doesn't just vlog into a webcam - and I bailed on this pretty quick. Not before wasting an unfortunate 5 minutes on this.

 

[Sir Hound]

Saw this yesterday and loved it. Easily one of the best films I've seen in years, and it'd be a total disservice to call it the best comic book film of all time.

Reading this thread it's interesting how trained I am to take the protagonist as a reliable narrator even when it's made overt that he isn't. I didn't need the flashbacks for the relationship but until reading this thread I hadn't considered the colleague didn't pass him the gun. It was 100% a delusion with the comic "you know you're my boy" but at this point you don't know enough about the relationship to know any different. It was a great choice to leave us stranded in his psychosis when we receive the conflicting evidence. But at the time I decided the colleague was trying to save his skin by Saying Arthur tried to buy it

 

[orochi91]

Iconic scene

 

[Deleted member 41520]

A sympathetic Joker. My god what have you done?

As for the movie itself... I don't know. I agree that Joaquin Phoenix did a great performance as Joker, but I also agree that the meaning of the film is hard to decipher and I don't really want to give the director credit for something he may have accidentally stumbled on.

Also, it's slower than I had anticipated, bitcwhen things heat up it gets intense. I like a Joker that is unpredictable, especially the scene when you don't know whether or not he was going to kill that dwarf. Still, the message itself was muddled.

6/10.

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The message was absolutely clear. This events of this film are what happens when you destroy welfare and social care systems. The obsession with Joker, as a character and idea, comes from people feeling powerless and creating power where they have none. By extrapolating his entire situation into one created by society's currently very sick system, they link the idea to our modern world and politic very profoundly.

 

[selfReg]

Iconic scene

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I tried to find this as soon as I finished watching it. Straight chills.

 

[Deleted member 41520]

There were like 6 incidents when he should have been arrested yeah. That's when the movie start to tumble down. The first hour is magnificent though.

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"Lucky protagonists" is a trope which often sucks, but in this case that's entirely part of Joker's M.O. In the comics he's ALWAYS just getting away with things because the cards happen to topple in his favour. His level of luck comes from his sheer electric energy that he pushes into everything with.

I thought it was clever how the last half hour showed all these situations lining up perfectly to orchestrate the birth of the character we know and love from the comics.

 

[Deleted member 41520]

The joker is absolutely written to be an incel. The movie is about as subtle as Bright when it comes to social commentary.

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Movie was ok. 2 hours of watching an incel get his revenge is what I got out of it.

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Hilariously off-base take. If the media hadn't thrown the term "incel" at the movie before it released, nobody would have made the connection. Because it's a ridiculous connection based on basically nothing.

This film is about a working class man with serious mental health illnesses being failed by a wrecked social care/welfare system, to the point that he becomes an organised criminal mastermind.

Most incels don't have mental health illnesses. Most aren't working class. They are over-sheltered low-frustration-tolerance-ridden middle-class young men.

There is literally no overlap with incels and this movie. Not by class. Not by intention. Not by theme. Not by execution. There's no connection. This movie disagrees with incels.

 

[MajesticSoup]

His first murder is a bunch of hot rich dudes (ie. Chads) and he does project a fantastical relationship, however the movie is surprisingly careful in

Spoiler: jokar

not killing Zazie Beetz

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No doubt that's a deleted scene. Probably didn't want to overload the incel meter.

 

[Cpt-GargameL]

No doubt that's a deleted scene. Probably didn't want to overload the incel meter.

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At this point I am lead to believe you're either a) trolling or b) truly believe this when on a global scale it's false (I've done the math)

 

[Halbrand]

No doubt that's a deleted scene. Probably didn't want to overload the incel meter.

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The deleted scenes involve Arthur leaving flowers at her door before he goes to the Murray show, so there's not.