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JOKER |OT| Viviamo in una società |SPOILERS|
- Thread starter Cpt-GargameL
- Start date
Well, the issue is people keep saying this movie is an important critique of the lack of proper mental health services in modern society. So is it that or is it an exaggerated fictional hellscape?
The funny thing is, Arthur is already in therapy and is able to fill his meds .. that's already better than most people in the world.
I too hated that, all characters here are the same son of a bitch. Seeing the therapist unable to do her job made the whole "they cut mental health money" useless (he was also far gone).
This is actually very interesting. I didn't consider that the film could be an unreliable narration by Arthur himself.
it would be interesting if that were actually the case, and there is some evidence to support it as you say.
Wow, just got out of it and was much better than I was the expecting, the acting and audiovisual design was great and I liked that they are trying to raise mental health awareness and lack of help. Much darker than I was expecting, currently my favourite film of the year.
I think the biggest evidence of it is the music, since it explains why he is seems to be aware of the soundtrack at times. But then there are a bunch of little things that make more sense, even things like the choice of style for the title cards, which when put in the context of "how would Joker dress up a movie about himself". Then there's the difference between the grimy asylum he is visits and the clean one he is shown in at the end. And then there is literally a mob of people cheering his name at the end haha.
It might not be the case, but it fits in my mind.
That's exactly where I'm at with the movie, too. It's a very well-made film with great acting and story. But to say it's a "good" movie kind of brushes off how uncomfortable and disturbing it is at times. It makes it sound like the contents of the film are "good", when there's nothing "feel good" about it. I like this movie a lot, but to say "I loved it" makes it sound like I endorse the actions of the main character.
Good movies, or movies that I love, are ones I can't wait to watch again and again. I feel like Nightcrawler (with Jake Gyllenhaal) is a similar film. I loved that one, watched it a bunch of times, and recommended it to people. But for Joker, I don't really watch to watch it again due to the disturbing nature of the film, despite perhaps being the best movie I've seen this year.
It's definitely auncomfortable movie, but I think that just leans into why it's so good. It's very evocative of those emotions, which I imagine is the point.
I think uncomfortable movies can still be good. The point of art is to elicit an emotional response is it not? I understand being hesitant to recommend it, but I feel like if the movies goal was not to make you uncomfortable it would be harder to recommend since it wasn't conveying what it meant. But in this case, since you're supposed to feel that way I think it's ok.
I don't think a love for the movie means you support the character.
I've already seen it twice, and personally the more time I spend away from it the more I want to watch it again.
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I'm not saying it's a not a good movie, it's quite excellent. It's just hard for me to recommend it to people because it'll put them through the same disturbing and uncomfortable emotions I felt. It's not really a movie I want to celebrate.
Maybe I've just been working as a teacher too long that I've been resensitized to violence.
Super curious if Robert Pattinson's The Batman is going to tie into this. It would be fascinating if that film took a similar route but with Batman's side of things, and showed the duality of their relationship.
No i definitely get that.
Personally I think that lauding a movie isn't the same as endorsing or praising the specific content of the film. More of appreciating the portrayal and craft that went into it. I feel like there are other movies with disturbing content that are widely praised and recommended.
I would love to see Phoenix play the Joker again, so I hope so.
You kind of nailed my feelings on Joker. I thought it was an incredible movie, but its one I felt very uncomfortable watching. I've struggled with mental Illness so that hit close to home and violence was all incredibly realistic. Its a pretty fantastic piece of art to elicit those reactions but I never want to see it again. Phoenix absolutely should get the Oscar and this might be the years best film.
I would be really curious to see this Joker in a Batman movie.
It was okay.
Felt the hype generated set the film up to be far more than it was and could have really used more subtlety and it lent too close to King of Comedy without really trying to do its own thing in terms of commentary.
Enjoyed it overall but think I would have enjoyed it more if I was blind to the hype going in and would have been an unexpected surprise. Like always Phoenix was fantastic.
I thought they missed a trick on the unreliable narrator direction, by having the flashback scenes it prevented the viewer from questioning what was real and what wasn't. It would have been a much better film if everything was thrown into question and making the viewer go on the journey of mental illness and not being able to trust anything.
Felt the hype generated set the film up to be far more than it was and could have really used more subtlety and it lent too close to King of Comedy without really trying to do its own thing in terms of commentary.
Enjoyed it overall but think I would have enjoyed it more if I was blind to the hype going in and would have been an unexpected surprise. Like always Phoenix was fantastic.
I thought they missed a trick on the unreliable narrator direction, by having the flashback scenes it prevented the viewer from questioning what was real and what wasn't. It would have been a much better film if everything was thrown into question and making the viewer go on the journey of mental illness and not being able to trust anything.
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I certainly wouldn't say that it's "important critique" myself, but it undeniably shines a light on those issues albeit through a murky, distorted lens, much in the way the Batman character, his rogues gallery and his city have reflected psychology and psychopathology for decades already. Sure, silly comic books and all, but they did uniquely raise the questions when no one else was, are these villains really villains, or are they victims of a ruthless society? It's not surprising to me that a joker movie set in that very location is playing up the same exact themes as it's source material.
Expecting a Gotham city therapist do her job in strict accordance with your real experiences in an origin story about the Joker is just preposterous.
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No joke
This might be my favorite post of yours like ever
It's got so many layers.
Nah. People laughed at that scene when I saw it earlier this afternoon.
the other day a nurse told a patient to go fuck themselves so anything and everything is possible brothers
Finally saw it today. I might write more detailed impressions later after I've slept on it, but it wasn't quite the masterpiece I was hoping it to be. Still it was really good, I could give it a strong eight. Superb acting and some truly excellent cinematography, among the better comic book movies ever made.
I don't think she was unsympathetic at all. But I agree that her comment felt really out of place, it was bad writing for the reason you stated. It really stood out, it made her seem really bad at her job. She seemed frustrated by the situation, but she shouldn't of course talk like that to really vulnerable client. It was unnecessary for the film to literally spell out that government/state/the rich don't give a fuck, that message was clear already.
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She was concerned at his level of meds, seemed a normal response. In the other scene she had just lost her job as well ('they don't care about people like you and me'). Seemed to be part of the film's core themes - people in need being pushed aside by the powerful instead of being helped, which contributed to the escalation of his issues.
You'd be really fucking surprised how many people missed that part. Even Martin on Double Toasted didn't get it.
He literally says out loud that the asylum was better than being out in the real world.
I'm glad you have a high opinion of social workers, but it's not unrealistic. Certainly rare, but far from unrealistic.
Just got out of the movie. SO good!
Was wondering if they'd show the Waynes murder, wasn't surprised it wasn't Joker.
Was wondering if they'd show the Waynes murder, wasn't surprised it wasn't Joker.
Got out of the theater today after seeing this, thinking, "Damn, what a dark movie!"
Really enjoyed multiple performances here, and even enjoyed not having Thomas Wayne lionized like he typically is. It would be interesting to have a Batman come out of this universe, since he would do so with having a father hated by much of Gotham's populace, not revered as is common.
Joaquin seems like a shoe-in for a shelf of awards, no doubt.
Really enjoyed multiple performances here, and even enjoyed not having Thomas Wayne lionized like he typically is. It would be interesting to have a Batman come out of this universe, since he would do so with having a father hated by much of Gotham's populace, not revered as is common.
Joaquin seems like a shoe-in for a shelf of awards, no doubt.
Psychiatrists prescribe meds. Psychologists/social workers provide therapy. They have no influence or input on the amount or dosage of meds once takes. At least that's how it is in the states.
The red one?
I don't think it's new. We see him in the yellow vest and red pants.
I think he just puts the jacket on as well.
Just saw it also! What an amazing movie and jesus, that performance is so damn perfect!
Phoenix might just be my favorite Joker.
But yeah, not being him who killed the Waynes was a bit weird honestly
Why? In Batman lore, a random thief kills him. Besides, that would have been cliche.
Small review, i find the movie okay. Like many people said already, it is a strong homage to Taxi Driver with Joker on top. New Stories are very often a mix of other stories, so that doesn't make it bad, if it gives it something unique. Joaquin Phoenix is the movie, everything else is nothing special or unique. That's why it is just an okay movie for me.
This out of the way, i have a question: Is it clear, that the Joker is a bad guy?
The angle of the movie on the Joker's true evilness is, that just uses the anger of the city as a stage. He states, that he doesn't have any political interest and we see, that he only wants to recognized as something (human, person or comedian?). But in the movie he only uses the protesters in the train, when he hides between them to escape the cops. But this wasn't planed of him and more of an coincidence.
I feel, the only reason we see him as a "super villain" in the end of the movie, is because he kills people and is the Joker. If we would take the Batman universe out of the movie, would you have the feeling, that Arthur Fleck would control the masses and trying to build more "performances", which would make him into a figure like the Joker?
I would say, the movie doesn't really do anything strongly in this regards and just builds on our knowledge about the character of Joker.
This out of the way, i have a question: Is it clear, that the Joker is a bad guy?
The angle of the movie on the Joker's true evilness is, that just uses the anger of the city as a stage. He states, that he doesn't have any political interest and we see, that he only wants to recognized as something (human, person or comedian?). But in the movie he only uses the protesters in the train, when he hides between them to escape the cops. But this wasn't planed of him and more of an coincidence.
I feel, the only reason we see him as a "super villain" in the end of the movie, is because he kills people and is the Joker. If we would take the Batman universe out of the movie, would you have the feeling, that Arthur Fleck would control the masses and trying to build more "performances", which would make him into a figure like the Joker?
I would say, the movie doesn't really do anything strongly in this regards and just builds on our knowledge about the character of Joker.
I thought it was great because like a great Batman story it was about gothem itself. I can buy into the world this is the city where super villains and goons could come from and the performance was fantastic.
Yes. I'm sure no social worker in the history of social workers has ever been a bad one, especially not in the early 80s. Your real life comparison to modern times is totally the only experiences anybody had and is comparable to over 30 years ago.
"Large segments of the critical community."
Seems more like you're invested in a small vocal minority bubble of people that hate the film. Because by every metric possible audiences are eating this up, it won the golden lion, and the majority of critics liked it.
Was she bad, or just frustrated because the funding was cut and slipped up?
I was just going by his words, she didn't even seem bad. Just had a human moment of complete honesty and her facade was off. Which is completely realistic.
I dont know why people were jumping on you for pointing out how bad of a thing that is to say to someone in therapy. Especially someone with Arthur's troubles and especially so bluntly. You usually mask that sort of language with metaphor or dont say it at all.
Any therapist worth their salt understands this, regardless of how shitty things are for they themselves. Its why it's such a mentally draining career. Maybe my brief background clin psych is coloring my perspective, idk. Her saying that to him only further made me roll my eyes at the "world is falling on Arthur" motif.
Stuff like this is only saved by the possibility that the movie is being told by an unreliable narrator, which I feel is a cop out for its weaker aspects. And only serves to make light of the serious tone it's attempting.
Um, you'd be surprised.
Also, she wasn't being mean when she said no one cares about him. She said no one cares about either of them, about mental health professionals and those in need of them. Society at large doesn't care. And, she not wrong.
The "Mur-ray" show scene is on YouTube and I've watched it like 15 times just dissecting the acting. When he first shoots him, it cuts to Jokers face full of horror/regret that he just ended the one thing he thought made him happy. Camera cuts away to a wider shot then back on his face. As he sits there taking the chaos in, his agony turns to happiness as he realizes that killing him made him the happiest he has ever felt in his life. At that moment he knew who he truly was and what he's meant to be. To live your whole life to try to fit into something (ok a society) only to feel your happiest not giving a fuck and being yourself, Joker gives his most authentic laugh of the whole movie. Who he is? The Clown Prince of Crime, an Agent of Chaos, a Psychopath, a monster. He shoots him again, goes do do it a third time but says two is enough, does a little dance, and gets in the cameras face and signs out with Murray's line.
Its fucking brilliant and should get JP an Oscar. The movie just gets better the more details you take in.
Its fucking brilliant and should get JP an Oscar. The movie just gets better the more details you take in.
My wife wanted to see the movie because of all the hype, I only read about the incel stuff.
We both really enjoyed it.
I hate the Wayne murder scene though. Having it in EVERY Batman related media got old a long time ago.
Also, fuck the Joker for smoking so much. I am trying to quit...
We both really enjoyed it.
I hate the Wayne murder scene though. Having it in EVERY Batman related media got old a long time ago.
Also, fuck the Joker for smoking so much. I am trying to quit...
Aren't you an immigration attorney? How would you know how mental health professionals interact with patients?
Me neither. And I agree that the only rationalization is that Arthur's perspective is unreliable.
Which post? I think my point on this is pretty clear. Whether it's factually correct that society doesn't care about Arthur or the poor is beside the point. The point is, responsible therapists are NOT going to say this to someone who's presenting as suicidal. It's just another case of the movie presenting EVERY PERSON Arthur interacts with as awful. It's unrealistic and annoying and I think the movie generates too much sympathy for him.... and yes that's after the killing begins.