It doesn't matter. The 'woke' people who latched on to the incel narrative will never give it up because they lack critical thinking skills. And to be fair, most people these days don't think critically.
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JOKER |OT| Viviamo in una società |SPOILERS|
- Thread starter Cpt-GargameL
- Start date
I don't think the director "accidentally" put social workers, funding cuts, and mental health care systems in the film.
Might want to think this through a little more.
One thing I didn't noticed the first time I watched was how Arthur positioned his body while the boys were beating him in the first scene. The way he positioned his body didn't feel like a natural reaction, it seemed like some kind of pose he developed to better defend himself along the years of suffering abuse.
never heard of this guy before. Really good shit, thanks for posting.
The video is very well reasoned, IMO.
Their other videos are definitely worth checking out.
We've had Peter Coffin video threads before and personally I think this particular video deserves its own thread but I don't have thread privileges.
Watched it yesterday, honestly expected a lot more "incel" stuff based on what people said. There qre very few deaths in the movie and they were all impactful. REQLLY IMPACTFUL. Sound design was superb, loved the photography, the main actor is amazing. One of the best movies I watched, but I dont know what to think about "the message" (not that it really needs any).
There were people LAUGHING OUT LOD during the movie, this is extremely weird. The movie couldn't be more sad, from the beginning to the end, you can't really laugh about anything unless you are... The Joker.
There were people LAUGHING OUT LOD during the movie, this is extremely weird. The movie couldn't be more sad, from the beginning to the end, you can't really laugh about anything unless you are... The Joker.
Just got back from watching the movie with the wife.
What a ride, slow but still what a ride. Joaquin Phoenix character is probably better than Heath Ledger's but both performances were great. I think, towards the end, it felt like hints of HL Joker came out but I might just be looking hard as HL's performance to me was hard to beat.
Now, I don't get the Intel reference to this movie. Maybe i don't want to know for fear of ruining my experience of that movie.
What a ride, slow but still what a ride. Joaquin Phoenix character is probably better than Heath Ledger's but both performances were great. I think, towards the end, it felt like hints of HL Joker came out but I might just be looking hard as HL's performance to me was hard to beat.
Now, I don't get the Intel reference to this movie. Maybe i don't want to know for fear of ruining my experience of that movie.
I mean, this Joker is a classic stereotypical incel. White man in his 30's still living with his mother, a virgin who dreams of having a relationship with the girl next door (who tells him things he wants to hear and is submissive), blames everyone else for his problems, and wants to be worshipped by everyone else. Don't get me wrong, the movie has some good messages about mental health and wealth disparity, but using the Joker, especially this portrayal of the Joker, is the wrong way to present these messages.
While you can certainly take that take (lol) from the movie I think the basic principles of the whole thing are
- Fuck the power, fuck the rich (Wayne was a douchebag btw)
- ANYONE can be the Joker after this point
Arthur is an accident, a no one. It's the same concept as in TDK: it's about sending a message. This movie can work perfectly as a prequel to the Nolan trilogy for example, in that Heath's Joker was inspired by Arthur. It even can work as a prequel to the Burton's movies. And that's why the movie is great. Arthur being an incel (he is) means not much when he is actually nothing in the grand scope of things. He killed those guys almost by accident and with a gun that was not his, he didn't plan anything. He actually tried to kill himself on live television but changed his mind at the last moment. And if he had indeed killed himself, things would've been the same outside. He never wanted to be a symbol, he wanted to be a good comedian, that's it. It's a tragic tale with horrible consequences as his actions (voluntary and involuntary) have created the monster that the Joker is.
I don't see how a sequel could work, but well.
I really loved everything about it and its the best origin story for the Joker that has ever been done. What you said here though I can't stop thinking about since I watched it. It is a perfect prequel to the Nolan trilogy. When you watch TDK and Joker is introduced he rules everyone including the criminal underworld because of his unpredictability and his aversion to money or anything of real world value. He thrives in just chaos. I always wondered how they could ever write someone becoming like that and Phoenix / Phillips did an amazing job putting the pieces together.
The ending reveal of how Joker himself wasn't responsible for the death of Bruce's parents as Tim Burton and some of the comics suggest but someone inspired by his movement was even better.
Really loved it. Definitely in my top 3 of best comic movies ever.
1) TDK
2) LOGAN
3) JOKER
The fact that you're conflating your typical loner guy with incels means you just don't know what an incel is. The term 'incel' is used to describe a specific kind of loner, one that actively hates women, thinks they are owed sex, are usually racist, misanthropes, and narcissists. Arthur becomes a misanthrope and narcissist by the end, sure, but those are characteristics of the Joker character. You're also conveniently leaving out the fact that Arthur had extreme childhood abuse and trauma which resulted in multiple mental illnesses.
One of the main points of the movie is that disadvantaged people like Arthur shouldn't be left on their own by society. You'd think so-called progressives would figure this out but apparently not. But he is a white male after all, like you said. Oh well.
That's partly why this movie is so great. It sort of turns the audience into the Joker.
I am glad you liked it.I really loved everything about it and its the best origin story for the Joker that has ever been done. What you said here though I can't stop thinking about since I watched it. It is a perfect prequel to the Nolan trilogy. When you watch TDK and Joker is introduced he rules everyone including the criminal underworld because of his unpredictability and his aversion to money or anything of real world value. He thrives in just chaos. I always wondered how they could ever write someone becoming like that and Phoenix / Phillips did an amazing job putting the pieces together.
The ending reveal of how Joker himself wasn't responsible for the death of Bruce's parents as Tim Burton and some of the comics suggest but someone inspired by his movement was even better.
Really loved it. Definitely in my top 3 of best comic movies ever.
1) TDK
2) LOGAN
3) JOKER
Just saw the movie last night. I wanted to watch it because I'm writing a sort of "tragedy" type of story and wanted to see how they handled it so I could take notes, what worked, what didn't, etc.
Whew. Joaquin Phoenix. His performance was so good, it felt real. And even starting from the beginning of the movie, I felt sad. Even after the somewhat unsatisfactory ending scene in the mental institution, I was still walking out of the theater sad.
There are definitely some problems with the movie's message, as it tries to juggle several different concepts and not sticking firmly to them. For most of the film, it feels like a scalding take on the flaws of our society and how the mentally ill are treated. Sadly, the more they tried to bring in the Joker universe, it clashed with what could be a really solid take on this aspect. It is a bit contradictory, as if it weren't for the comic book universe we wouldn't have the movie, but at the same time, it becomes a big source of inconsistency for the story. I also take issue with the rioting that occurred because of the killings. It's not that it couldn't happen, it's just that they developed the social reaction to it so superficially, that it feels weak. More time spent on this could have helped, but in the end it didn't bring down the movie that much for me.
Despite that, it's incredibly well done in a number of key aspects, and is certainly better than any DC movie (or even comic book movie) I've seen in recent memory, going back until something like Dark Knight. Phoenix's performance still haunts my mind; it's also incredible if he can play a character like this without it ruining his own mental state, as with what happened with Heath Ledger.
In the end it's a flawed movie, but it contains an incredible performance and it's good enough to move me to sadness and think about it after leaving the theater.
On a side note, I saw the video where Jenny Nicholson was criticizing it before I even saw the movie, and while I agree with some flaws she brings up, I think her take on the movie is somewhat lacking. Namely, she doesn't seem to pick up on some of the themes of the movie very well (her comments on the dancing scenes I find to be puzzling, as it's a clear theme of the character and his development, and she made it seem like they were just randomly inserted into the movie. The time when he was on the stairs was important even in relation to the other scenes, as it was like is "coming into" his character, leading to his changed behavior as a guest on the tv show), as well as some psychological aspects of the character. Despite that, there is an issue with the way they portrayed the mental illness aspect, and it mainly suffers in favor of pushing the Joker comic book narrative instead of going in depth with this conflict that the movie has been building since the beginning. Anyway, everyone has their own take, and some will be even way different from mine.
The thing about the movie's clear flaws is that even though it has flaws, the strengths were really strong, enough so that it makes it a much more memorable comic book movie than almost any I've seen recently. And sometimes the flaws are inevitable, as is such when you try to tell a more realistic story and fit it to a comic book universe.
Whew. Joaquin Phoenix. His performance was so good, it felt real. And even starting from the beginning of the movie, I felt sad. Even after the somewhat unsatisfactory ending scene in the mental institution, I was still walking out of the theater sad.
There are definitely some problems with the movie's message, as it tries to juggle several different concepts and not sticking firmly to them. For most of the film, it feels like a scalding take on the flaws of our society and how the mentally ill are treated. Sadly, the more they tried to bring in the Joker universe, it clashed with what could be a really solid take on this aspect. It is a bit contradictory, as if it weren't for the comic book universe we wouldn't have the movie, but at the same time, it becomes a big source of inconsistency for the story. I also take issue with the rioting that occurred because of the killings. It's not that it couldn't happen, it's just that they developed the social reaction to it so superficially, that it feels weak. More time spent on this could have helped, but in the end it didn't bring down the movie that much for me.
Despite that, it's incredibly well done in a number of key aspects, and is certainly better than any DC movie (or even comic book movie) I've seen in recent memory, going back until something like Dark Knight. Phoenix's performance still haunts my mind; it's also incredible if he can play a character like this without it ruining his own mental state, as with what happened with Heath Ledger.
In the end it's a flawed movie, but it contains an incredible performance and it's good enough to move me to sadness and think about it after leaving the theater.
On a side note, I saw the video where Jenny Nicholson was criticizing it before I even saw the movie, and while I agree with some flaws she brings up, I think her take on the movie is somewhat lacking. Namely, she doesn't seem to pick up on some of the themes of the movie very well (her comments on the dancing scenes I find to be puzzling, as it's a clear theme of the character and his development, and she made it seem like they were just randomly inserted into the movie. The time when he was on the stairs was important even in relation to the other scenes, as it was like is "coming into" his character, leading to his changed behavior as a guest on the tv show), as well as some psychological aspects of the character. Despite that, there is an issue with the way they portrayed the mental illness aspect, and it mainly suffers in favor of pushing the Joker comic book narrative instead of going in depth with this conflict that the movie has been building since the beginning. Anyway, everyone has their own take, and some will be even way different from mine.
The thing about the movie's clear flaws is that even though it has flaws, the strengths were really strong, enough so that it makes it a much more memorable comic book movie than almost any I've seen recently. And sometimes the flaws are inevitable, as is such when you try to tell a more realistic story and fit it to a comic book universe.
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I was thinking this actually as a way to make this story fit the universe. And with this take that anyone can don the clown persona, it can be such that a new Joker rises later inspired by Arthur.
Joaquin Phoenix interviewed by his sisters
Timestamps in the comments
4:50 JiMMaY KiMEL skit
5:30 His sisters yell at each other over Joker, pit Joaquin in the middle
7:36 Funny
8:35 Joker Intepretation
10:40 Joaquin talks love of civil critique but loses train of thought part-way through
12:30 Joaquin debunks a critique about the political unrest in Gotham
14:30 Sensational journalism and it's representation in Joker
15:15 Joaquin talks Joker as being a 'living entitity'
15:45 Glorifying Joker, 'Joker was a bumbling fool on Murray show'
17:13 Arthur's meds
19:47 Joaquin, 'Make it 1 million and I'm there' phone call
20:00 Arthur, PTSD 'Fight, Flight, and Freeze'
22:26 Arthur's paranoia, 'Did they steal his sign or was it in his head?'
25:22 Joaquin gets interrupted for the 2nd time and gives his sister a piece of his mind
27:21 Joaquin's 13 year old critic "U F*CKING SUCK!!"
29:09 "You have to humiliate yourself"
30:09 Joaquin's fear of public humiliation, people's perception of him
31:15 Joaquin's Joker idea that backfired big
32:45 Todd and Joaquin's chemistry
33:41 Joaquin had to admit he "f*cked up" to the crew
36:11 Introducing Joaquin's inner critics, "13 year old Roger, 18 year Rohare, and the older man."
37:05 Becoming the Joker identity, Joaquin talks becoming the Joker
39:37 Joaquin's acting methodology
40:10 Getting ideas, Todd "I didn't love that"
41:03 Rain talks about the ups and downs that is life, it's a journey
42:07 "ROHARE, SHUT UP!!!" "Jorge, STOP IT!!!"
43:12 "I'm your Rohare", "She my Jorge, you're my Rohare"
44:44 Rohare gets told
45:59 Summer's record, sibling talk, sharing trauma
54:12 Becoming Vegan, empathy
57:28 Power of connectivity
58:13 Mom was hitch-hiking, "And then I was born"
59:28 Difficult times
1:01:50 Closing final 3 questions
1:12:30 Rain Phoenix's song
Timestamps in the comments
4:50 JiMMaY KiMEL skit
5:30 His sisters yell at each other over Joker, pit Joaquin in the middle
7:36 Funny
8:35 Joker Intepretation
10:40 Joaquin talks love of civil critique but loses train of thought part-way through
12:30 Joaquin debunks a critique about the political unrest in Gotham
14:30 Sensational journalism and it's representation in Joker
15:15 Joaquin talks Joker as being a 'living entitity'
15:45 Glorifying Joker, 'Joker was a bumbling fool on Murray show'
17:13 Arthur's meds
19:47 Joaquin, 'Make it 1 million and I'm there' phone call
20:00 Arthur, PTSD 'Fight, Flight, and Freeze'
22:26 Arthur's paranoia, 'Did they steal his sign or was it in his head?'
25:22 Joaquin gets interrupted for the 2nd time and gives his sister a piece of his mind
27:21 Joaquin's 13 year old critic "U F*CKING SUCK!!"
29:09 "You have to humiliate yourself"
30:09 Joaquin's fear of public humiliation, people's perception of him
31:15 Joaquin's Joker idea that backfired big
32:45 Todd and Joaquin's chemistry
33:41 Joaquin had to admit he "f*cked up" to the crew
36:11 Introducing Joaquin's inner critics, "13 year old Roger, 18 year Rohare, and the older man."
37:05 Becoming the Joker identity, Joaquin talks becoming the Joker
39:37 Joaquin's acting methodology
40:10 Getting ideas, Todd "I didn't love that"
41:03 Rain talks about the ups and downs that is life, it's a journey
42:07 "ROHARE, SHUT UP!!!" "Jorge, STOP IT!!!"
43:12 "I'm your Rohare", "She my Jorge, you're my Rohare"
44:44 Rohare gets told
45:59 Summer's record, sibling talk, sharing trauma
54:12 Becoming Vegan, empathy
57:28 Power of connectivity
58:13 Mom was hitch-hiking, "And then I was born"
59:28 Difficult times
1:01:50 Closing final 3 questions
1:12:30 Rain Phoenix's song
Finally got to watch it last night and it was absolutely incredible, Phoenix's performance is on another level.
I really liked everything about it. There's such an unnerving feeling throughout the whole film, the descent to craziness is really uncomfortable.
I really liked everything about it. There's such an unnerving feeling throughout the whole film, the descent to craziness is really uncomfortable.
Saw this last night, finally... and as a straight forward character piece, I loved it. Phoenix's turn was mesmerizing, he breathed so much life into the character, and I forgot I was watching an actor completely. I enjoyed the Batman universe tie ins, and I loved all the unreliable narrator aspects.
The final moments of the film gave us the best Joker we've seen on screen yet imo. I adored Ledger's turn, but the humanity in Phoenix's performance and the way the film escalates to the birth of the Joker just gives the character so much weight.
I would personally love to see him tie in to a full Batman film, if handled well it could be something incredible. As a stand-alone experience, though, it was one of the best films I've seen all year.
The final moments of the film gave us the best Joker we've seen on screen yet imo. I adored Ledger's turn, but the humanity in Phoenix's performance and the way the film escalates to the birth of the Joker just gives the character so much weight.
I would personally love to see him tie in to a full Batman film, if handled well it could be something incredible. As a stand-alone experience, though, it was one of the best films I've seen all year.
Saw the film. I don't get what so many people were concerned about. There's no alt right pandering here. This movie also doesn't exist to make you sympathize with the Joker. He's not a good person in this film. He's not someone you want to be, or feel like you are deep down. He's mentally ill, a complete fucking wreck of a person, a stalker, a piece of shit.
There are some highs, but the majority of this movie is at a low for me. I don't see how it got an 8.7 on IMDb, I don't understand how people could consider this a "movie of the year" when Parasite and The Lighthouse exist. It's not really a great film - count me among the people who didn't "get it" overall.
There are some highs, but the majority of this movie is at a low for me. I don't see how it got an 8.7 on IMDb, I don't understand how people could consider this a "movie of the year" when Parasite and The Lighthouse exist. It's not really a great film - count me among the people who didn't "get it" overall.
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Can't argue with their conclusion about why the footage doesn't belong in there, but this is definitely a film where I don't think I want every little thing explained.
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Agree.
I don't think I would have changed anything about the film.
Just finished watching it. This is the best comic book film. Genre aside, it's just an excellent film overall. But I can definitely see why people were concerned that this film might incite some to violence. Nonetheless, I feel this is a film quite appropriate for this era, and undoubtedly appropriate for the character of the Joker. This film extinguished any remaining doubt there may have been left inside me that the Joker is indeed the best villain in fiction.
Lol this script really is baaaad. It's actually impressive how the movie almost managed to overcome it and make it a good movie, I'll give that to Todd Phillips.
I wish they did that for the reveal that they weren't in a relationship too, her line in the apartment gets the point across in a pretty chilling way and then the movie has to show you scenes where she isn't there. The one part in the movie where it felt like there were studio notes like "MAKE THIS LOUDER FOR THE PEOPLE IN THE BACK"
Digital release was 17th December apparently, physical is tomorrow.
Honestly I do kinda regret saying "best villain in all of fiction;" perhaps best comic book villain would be more accurate. Griffith is indeed a motherfucker.That title belongs to Griffith from Berserk:
I guess what makes the Joker so compelling to me is that he doesn't have any crazy superpowers or genius intellect; he is simply a deeply, deeply disturbed man who is able to inspire people to follow him. He won't overpower you physically or intellectually; he will destroy you psychologically. I suppose a man who doesn't believe in anything and who has nothing to lose cannot be beaten at all, really. The late Heath Ledger and now Joaquin Phoenix convey this paradigm masterfully through their portrayals of the character. Chaotic nihilism.
What you've just described is kinda like Johan from Monster (another villain that's one of the best in fiction).
Finally watched it, was pretty much exactly what I was expecting. Like it was obvious Zazie's relationship with him was fake, it ending on the Murray thing the way it did was a given etc. I mean it's a comic book movie about a well known character so there's only so much you can do but yeah.
Also the prevailing themes or messages of the movie are all pretty muddy or contradictory. I liked Phoenix in it of course but I'm glad it's a one and done role, his performance in You Were Never Really Here was much better and that's just a comparison of two recent movies where he plays a loner who commits brutal violence.
The score was great and I wish there was more of that and less of the awkwardly placed licensed soundtrack.
Also the prevailing themes or messages of the movie are all pretty muddy or contradictory. I liked Phoenix in it of course but I'm glad it's a one and done role, his performance in You Were Never Really Here was much better and that's just a comparison of two recent movies where he plays a loner who commits brutal violence.
The score was great and I wish there was more of that and less of the awkwardly placed licensed soundtrack.
Also some of the movie was just so contrived/hamfisted/whatever. Like his coworker just hands him a revolver in a paper brown bag despite being scared of him for thinking he's a weirdo creep?
Edit: the more I think about it the more annoyed I am that in two movies in two years where Phoenix plays a mentally ill loner who commits brutal violence the one which uses its IP clout to its advantage is getting more recognition despite YWNRH having much more consistency, better storytelling, better usage of themes etc. etc. Yeah the acting and the score in both of them is great but Joker is definitely style over substance while You Were Never Really Here has both.
And the white dude director of Joker gets to coast on to mainstream success but a rare woman director who made the same movie but much better just a year earlier is completely forgotten🤷♂️
Edit: the more I think about it the more annoyed I am that in two movies in two years where Phoenix plays a mentally ill loner who commits brutal violence the one which uses its IP clout to its advantage is getting more recognition despite YWNRH having much more consistency, better storytelling, better usage of themes etc. etc. Yeah the acting and the score in both of them is great but Joker is definitely style over substance while You Were Never Really Here has both.
And the white dude director of Joker gets to coast on to mainstream success but a rare woman director who made the same movie but much better just a year earlier is completely forgotten🤷♂️
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This is exactly how i felt. You Were Never Really Here is overall a better film to use to show Phoenix's acting performance and the overall movies showing Trauma so much better than this film. However im under the assumption that almost the entire audience watching the Joker has never seen YWNRH.
I just got down watching the Joker today. I would like it if DC did more projects like this over a cinematic universe but at same time i would love to explore the world of Batman with Phoenix Joker haha.
Finally got around to seeing it and ummm....yea....best film of 2019 by a country mile...dwarfing even The Irishman, The Lighthouse, Midsomer, OUATIH, etc. The only thing that sucked was the fact that they cut the anal sex scene between Murray and Sophie. Otherwise 10/10
Finally ordered the UHD Blu-ray.
My theater was completely silent during the whole movie. It surely added to the experience.
That is my only problem with the movie. They didn't have to show those scenes.