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Jonathan Hickman's X-Men |OT| Adaptation or Dominance(Open Spoilers, Gambit is the Witness)

How should we tag spoilers?

  • Day of release spoilers are fine

    Votes: 109 51.7%
  • Give each issue a one week spoiler tag

    Votes: 65 30.8%
  • sPoiLEr tAGs fOR eVerYThinG

    Votes: 14 6.6%
  • No spoiler tags at all-even for speculation

    Votes: 23 10.9%

  • Total voters
    211
  • Poll closed .

Woozies

Banned
Nov 1, 2017
14,967
But Raven is also entirely self serving and Moira's whole plan thing relies on fucking Destiny over. Which... you know is a good way for Raven to go out of her way to murder you.
 

The Adder

Member
Oct 25, 2017
7,322
Also weird was that the Librarian didn't have an advanced death prevention system in place over Moira with multiple redundancies. Like, literally placing her in a Matrix-movie-style pod or something. All it took was wolverine going plus-ultra for a second and your species' plan for godhood is ended. It makes so little sense that my head-cannon now has to be that the Librarian secretly or subconsciously hoped for a slip up because of his apprehension surrounding ascension was that great.
Seemed pretty clear to me he'd made up his mind about stopping it and was looking for an excuse to not go through with stopping ascension. If he was really still weighing his options he wouldn't have told them everything while there was anything they could do to take the decision out of his hands.
 
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deimosmasque

Member
Apr 22, 2018
1,898
Tampa, Fl
Thing with Selene is, unlike Apocalypse she has no goal except her own ambitions. Her ambition. Be the goddess of this planet.

Even her work with the Hellfire Club was only to push forward that end and she discarded them as soon as she realized there was nothing more to gain from said partnership.

To make your side the same as her means you have to worship her. Otherwise you just have similar goals for a while until she moves to the next plan to become a god.
 

fiendcode

Member
Oct 26, 2017
12,336
But Raven is also entirely self serving and Moira's whole plan thing relies on fucking Destiny over. Which... you know is a good way for Raven to go out of her way to murder you.
No, Irene set Moira on her current path and the one she's been following since life IV. They have the same end goals.

Raven is certainly self serving but she's also one who (before losing Irene) put her people above all else too. She's been a mess since Destiny died admittedly but even much of what she's done since has been directed by Irene to different ends (like protecting Rogue) and other things her attempts to resurrect Irene.
 

Manmademan

Member
Aug 6, 2018
6,183
Seemed pretty clear to me he'd made up his mind about stopping it and was looking for an excuse to go through with stopping ascension. If he was really still weighing his options he wouldn't have told them everything while there was anything they could do to take the decision out of his hands.
Agreed. The Librarian also seemed pretty confident he was fast enough to avoid being hit by mutants at all. I don't believe for a second wolverine managed to tag him by surprise. He had simply made his decision and given up.
 

caliph95

Member
Oct 25, 2017
22,640
Right. Which is why you make her side and your side the common goal.
Unless your common goal is to give her tons of people to eat and give her power and you actually don't care about anything and you just like getting stepped on by a vampire goddess I don't see how
Agreed. The Librarian also seemed pretty confident he was fast enough to avoid being hit by mutants at all. I don't believe for a second wolverine managed to tag him by surprise. He had simply made his decision and given up.
I'm starting to lean this way too that he gave them the opportunity for their plan
 

The Adder

Member
Oct 25, 2017
7,322
Also, now that folks are awake, just gonna go ahead and repost this

So here's a thought:

Based on how her powers work, Moira literally cannot die before they become active when she turns 13 if she chooses not to.

How so?

Because time follows the path it's supposed to when she's not actively trying to change it.

Moira is supposed to live into her seventies in her baseline timeline and has made it past 13 in every single preceding timeline. Meaning that in lives 10, 11, and beyond, all she has to do to ensure she lives until her X-Gene becomes active is... nothing.

So for Destiny's prediction to be correct, Moira has to choose to die without her powers. That or be forced to through circumstances growing out of whatever situation she's engineered.

What I'm saying is: Moira X is the last Moira because the right choice, if this timeline turns out to be the one where mutants don't necessarily win, but also don't lose, is for her to die without her powers and not live an 11th life. Because "the right choice at the end" is to preserve the timeline she took ten lifetimes to build, since she knows the eleventh is the last possible one.

This might also explain why she's so opposed to any precogs, especially Destiny, being around. She has perfect recall of her past lives, which means she still knows how to brew up a batch of mutant cure. She doesn't want to run the risk of Destiny flipping her shit with only partial understanding of Moira's intent.
 

Aizō

The Fallen
Oct 25, 2017
7,453
ほぼ真ん中の方
Nah. Everything that has happened in the current X-books since Xmen #1 is all the same timeline, unless you want to get into universe 7/8 nitpicking.
One thing that confuses me about this whole series so far is that it means Xavier has been knowledgeable about Moira's info the whole time we've known him? So we take all the failures so far as him still following his dream and not going her way until just recently? Seems weird. And Magneto has known for such a long time, even when he and Xavier where butting heads? Doesn't click for me.
 

The Silver

Member
Oct 28, 2017
5,312
What was Moira referring to when she said that they lost Magneto, there's been plenty of Magneto hero/villain flip flops over the years.
 

Manmademan

Member
Aug 6, 2018
6,183
One thing that confuses me about this whole series so far is that it means Xavier has been knowledgeable about Moira's info the whole time we've known him? So we take all the failures so far as him still following his dream and not going her way until just recently? Seems weird. And Magneto has known for such a long time, even when he and Xavier where butting heads? Doesn't click for me.
Yes and no.

Hickman says that Xavier restored his mind from a "backup" twice. We don't know what Xavier knew at what point. Xavier also appeared to be struggling quite a bit with the information Moira gave him- not wanting to believe that Mankind was inherently their enemy and no common ground could be found. This mental stress on his psyche is implied to be responsible for the portion of his personality that created Onslaught.

Magneto is a bit more complex. If we go way way back in Xmen history, Magneto was reverted to an infant after his years as full blown villain. Moira was one of the people responsible for restoring him to an adult body, but in doing so noted that Magneto was channeling so much power that it caused mental instability and irrationality- which was the explanation for the years of magneto running around as a supervillain. Magneto eventually fell off the wagon again and explicitly targeted Moira, assuming that she had tampered with his free will during that phase and using her techniques to mind control the Xmen and turn them against each other. Lee's Xmen #1-3 or so goes into all of this.

What was Moira referring to when she said that they lost Magneto, there's been plenty of Magneto hero/villain flip flops over the years.
I believe the exact year of the Xavier/Magneto schism is noted on the timeline, but I don't have it handy.
 

The Adder

Member
Oct 25, 2017
7,322
answered you a few posts ago.
So you did, apologies for missing it:

1. Destiny's out because her intention, at least as I read it, was to kill her after her powers manifested if she was going to be a threat. The danger there being that Destiny only saw her having 10 or 11 so she'd be wasting her limited lives getting merc'd by Destiny repeatedly.

2. Could have happened, but didn't. I'm not talking ways any of the previous Moiras could have lead to a premature death but avoided, I'm talking reasons Moira X 10 is only ever going to have a single life after this one tops.

3. Time travel might work, but only if the functionality of Moira's powers (things play out as they should when she isn't actively interfering) can be overridden by time travel. Her powers already interact abnormally with Destiny's. Who knows how they'd affect time travel

Still, outside of a rogue temporal assassin, based on the way Moira describes her abilities the only way I see her life being terminated permanently is by choice.
 

The Adder

Member
Oct 25, 2017
7,322
What was Moira referring to when she said that they lost Magneto, there's been plenty of Magneto hero/villain flip flops over the years.
The way I see it, it's before Charles formed the X-Men. They haven't been going through the motions all these years, Magneto's genuinely been on his own path and probably only got on board for keeps some time after Genosha. Or after House of M. Meanwhile, Charles has been resisting giving up on his dream while still also laying the groundwork for the plan.
 

Manmademan

Member
Aug 6, 2018
6,183
So you did, apologies for missing it:

1. Destiny's out because her intention, at least as I read it, was to kill her after her powers manifested if she was going to be a threat. The danger there being that Destiny only saw her having 10 or 11 so she'd be wasting her limited lives getting merc'd by Destiny repeatedly.
Yes, this is true, but should she die in life 10, and reincarnate in life 11 with the intent of doing something that was a threat to Destiny, Destiny will kill her before she turns 13. I don't think this one is all that likely because Moira seems to be interested in avoiding the genocide of the mutant and human races here. But it is possible.

2. Could have happened, but didn't. I'm not talking ways any of the previous Moiras could have lead to a premature death but avoided, I'm talking reasons Moira X 10 is only ever going to have a single life after this one tops.
That's the thing- the Phalanxes/Titans/Dominions are things that are a constant, they always exist. Life 6 ended with advanced humanity and machines intentionally calling the Phalanx to Earth in an attempt to join with them, not exactly realizing this would mean the complete annihilation of life on earth. The Dominion exists outside of spacetime, so if a phalanx or dominion were to become aware of Moira in THIS life (Life X) it could obliterate her in the past before her powers manifest, whether she keeps her powers or not. The dominion is stated to be godlike with no limitations. The Phalanx/Dominion are the ultimate Big Bad for the Xmen here, since there's no way to kill or even injure it via conventional means but it will be VERY interested in wiping out Moira and presumably earth itself if it discovers she exists.

3. Time travel might work, but only if the functionality of Moira's powers (things play out as they should when she isn't actively interfering) can be overridden by time travel. Her powers already interact abnormally with Destiny's. Who knows how they'd affect time travel
it's comics. Anything is possible. Destiny's powers it must be clarified worked just fine on Moira *once she knew what to look for.*
 

Zombine

Member
Oct 25, 2017
2,357
House/Powers was good. It’s Hickman so I don’t expect any of this to be solved until 5 years from now (if ever).

the one curious connection between Nimrod and Xavier that I want to see more of is the similarities between the stasis that Sabertooth was forced into in Krakoa, and the stasis pod that Nimrod uses to collect mutant data. I doubt that was unintentional.
 

Manmademan

Member
Aug 6, 2018
6,183
House/Powers was good. It’s Hickman so I don’t expect any of this to be solved until 5 years from now (if ever).

the one curious connection between Nimrod and Xavier that I want to see more of is the similarities between the stasis that Sabertooth was forced into in Krakoa, and the stasis pod that Nimrod uses to collect mutant data. I doubt that was unintentional.
I don't see the two being related. Sabretooth is going to be restrained somewhere in Krakoa- in exile but helpless and aware of what happens to him until such time as Xavier thinks he has an opportunity to redeem himself. Someone else mentioned this is probably a good opportunity to reboot "exiles" as something else down the line and I think there's a lot to this.

Nimrod on the other hand was plopping mutants in a tank in an attempt to discover more about how they work, to give himself an advantage in the ongoing war. This seems to have happened twice- once in life 6, once in life 9. Because of the deal Xavier and Mags struck with Sinister, the mutants already have a comprehensive genetic database in holographic form of every mutant known to have ever existed. There's no reason for Krakoa to mimic this with dangerous mutants thrown into exile.
 

Woozies

Banned
Nov 1, 2017
14,967
If i had to make a guess.

Moira is Doom

Xavier/Magneto/Poccy is the Illuminati

And Emma is Reed.
 

Proteus

Member
Oct 25, 2017
5,543
Toronto
So what Dawn of X books are people picking up?

I am going to definitely go with the two Hickman books and I decided to add Excalibur to the rotation. I'm not sure if I need anything else yet.
 

Canucked

Member
Oct 25, 2017
3,363
So what Dawn of X books are people picking up?

I am going to definitely go with the two Hickman books and I decided to add Excalibur to the rotation. I'm not sure if I need anything else yet.
I'm gonna give them all a fair shot. So one or two issues of each to start. But I am most excited for Marauders, New Mutants and Excalibur.
 

jon bones

Member
Oct 25, 2017
11,961
NYC
So what Dawn of X books are people picking up?

I am going to definitely go with the two Hickman books and I decided to add Excalibur to the rotation. I'm not sure if I need anything else yet.
I'm all in. Pull list looking real heavy, but I will say having weekly X-Conversations here has been a real treat and I'm looking forward to continuing it with you all.
 

Alice

Member
Nov 2, 2017
5,305
So what Dawn of X books are people picking up?

I am going to definitely go with the two Hickman books and I decided to add Excalibur to the rotation. I'm not sure if I need anything else yet.
All of them.

The last time I did that was Age of Apocalypse, eventually I regretted it when Operation Zero Tolerance was a stinker. But AoA was worth it.
 

OtisPepperoni

Member
Dec 5, 2017
90
So what Dawn of X books are people picking up?

I am going to definitely go with the two Hickman books and I decided to add Excalibur to the rotation. I'm not sure if I need anything else yet.
I've been exclusively reading Marvel on Marvel Unlimited for the last few years - until this event. Now I've got to decide how much to keep up weekly. Most interested in X-Men (HIckman writing, Cyclops seems to be the main character) and Mauraders. Fallen Angels as a concept really intrigues me, as it's something that was pretty much ignored during Hox/PoX, but I'm not that into the mutants in it. I'm totally lost on this whole Psylocke in another body thing.
 

Alice

Member
Nov 2, 2017
5,305
Yeah. I stopped comics because I wanted to spend my money on social stuff as a teen. Rereading it as an adult is a trip.
I very rarely actually ever look at floppies anymore these days, instead I'm building a sizable hardcover collection. So going back to floppies for this is pretty damn special.