The Krakoa Era of X-Men |OT| Mutant Massacre (Open Spoilers after issues drop)

[Manmademan]

Which is beating the dead horse, The Five rezzing it, and beating it again....plus it contradicts her being on the Omega mutant list and the 93 million mile telepathic data link and transfer

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Yep. The resurrection of jean grey storyline made it pretty clear that Jean and the Phoenix were permanently separated, and X-men Red showed that she was free to explore the limits of her power without the risk of attracting the Phoenix. It would just be "jean grey" from here on out.

as for Xmen #137, i think the issue itself puts this one to rest

This is definitely "the most famous moment she put that costume back on." Jean explains why she returned to that costume at that moment, and I think the same explanation applies. Hickman probably has been neck deep in X-men lore for years now and just assumed we would all recall the scene.

 

[TaleSpun]

I think we might be barking up the wrong tree with the costume thing. Going back over issue #137, the overriding theme of that issue wasn't so much "crazy phoenix stuff" it was very much "jean and scott come to terms with their feelings for each other."

If we look at the most famous time jean "put that costume back on" it was when her feelings for scott were made as explicit as possible. The two slept together almost immediately right after she showed the costume to him, and she died protecting him.

https://marvel.fandom.com/wiki/X-Men_Vol_1_137

I think Hickman is using the Marvel Girl costume here to signal that Jean and Scott have returned to their status quo of being an inseparable part of each other's lives, which is what the last couple panels of Rosenberg's run and/or the conclusion of Age of X-man (i can't recall which- again i'm very tired). strongly hinted at.

edit: this would make the "beer scene" make a lot more sense also- there's no more love triangle between scott/emma/jean, Scott and jean have returned to being offical, emma accepts this with no regrets and moves on, being friendly with both.

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Emma and Scott are on the cover to #3 riding a savage land monster, so it'll be interesting to potentially get their first one on one interaction there.

 

[OmniGamer]

The costume change moment in UXM 137 made sense in that moment, with Jean reflecting on a time of purity after her destruction as Dark Phoenix, to anchor herself to her humanity...I don't know if I see it as a Jean&Scott thing, especially if we were supposed to "get it" in issue 1...Jean and Scott never even interacted or referenced each other

Jean more recently wore it in Phoenix Resurrection #5, which continues directly into X-Men Red Annual #1...with Jean ultimately rejecting the whims of the Phoenix and its enticement of not dying or her loved ones dying.

(All of which is moot now with the resurrection stuff happening on Krakoa)

So I'd imagine most would either connect to that most recent time, or given how she was written in HOX 3&4, her younger 60s incarnation.

 

[Manmademan]

The costume change moment in UXM 137 made sense in that moment, with Jean reflecting on a time of purity after her destruction as Dark Phoenix, to anchor herself to her humanity...I don't know if I see it as a Jean&Scott thing, especially if we were supposed to "get it" in issue 1...Jean and Scott never even interacted or referenced each other

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the entire issue is a "jean and scott thing" honestly- the phoenix returns, and there's a big fight between the X-men and the imperial guard but it takes a backseat to Jean and Scott mooning over each other the entire issue.

Jean more recently wore it in Phoenix Resurrection #5, which continues directly into X-Men Red Annual #1

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yes, but Hickman is only really concerned with the most famous time she wore it and asks the readers to go back and read that story. What is the story about? Scott and Jean's love for each other. Why did Jean pick THAT outfit specifically? A combination of pride, nostalgia, and a wish to face the future as "marvel girl" with scott, separate from her existence as Phoenix.

edit: actually, now that you mention it, Phoenix Resurrection #5 is the best argument for why this isn't a "rolled back" Jean. The Phoenix (and not jean) gave her the marvel girl outfit, offering to go back to the way things were, and allow her to forget everything that happened, erasing her trauma. Jean explicitly rejects this, stating that she is SUPPOSED to feel pain and loss, and needs to be able to do it on her own. Accepting an offer from Xavier to do the exact same thing she told the phoenix not to do doesn't make sense here.

Jean established that she was separated from the Phoenix during the Phoenix Resurrection arc as well as X-men red, so no need to signal that again, honestly. The X-men Red Jean Grey though was very much a character that was separate from scott summers, had let his memory go and did not need him. I think Hickman wants to dial that back and take Jean back to the "Marvel Girl" status quo where she and scott were important to each other....which is where rosenberg left off.

 

[deimosmasque]

I have always been so focused on Emma in that scene I never noticed how sad Logan is.

 

[Manmademan]

I have always been so focused on Emma in that scene I never noticed how sad Logan is.

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Jean is just so overwhelmed to find out that Scott Summers and ONLY Scott Summers is miraculously back from the dead after many years, who can blame her

edit: but yeah. given the context, "xavier rolled back jean's mind to a teenager" doesn't really make any sense here. When answering why she's dressed that way, Hickman points the reader to a story where she's wearing that outfit but is explicitly NOT trauma free- it's the exact opposite. He wants to reference the Xmen #137 Jean, and that isn't an innocent teenager. That's the one that was torn up by having killed 5 billion people.

Resurrection of Jean Grey also says flat out that she does not WANT the kind of existence a rollback would offer and explicitly rejects it, citing pain and loss as important. This story is recent enough that Hickman would have taken it into account.

The costume is hinting at things, but its hinting at where her mental state and relationships are with herself and with the x-men, it's not pointing at a mind wipe. If significant issues in Xmen history are fresh in your mind, (re-)embracing the Marvel Girl costume would immediately recall the reasons she did it in #137, and you would "get" it by reading House of X #1. You would not be expected to anticipate her mind had been wiped back a decade or so prior, because none of that had yet been established by hickman and it is a completely off the wall solution.

 

[OmniGamer]

Hickman says that now..I referenced PR#5 and XMR Annual #1 because that's the last we saw the costume prior to HOX #1, and Hickman is saying he's surprised we didn't "get" the context of the costume after just the first issue

UXM 137 Jean wearing the MG costume was definitely more nostalgia and pride than looking into a future together with Scott since she planned from the start to end things herself if the Imperial Guard couldn't

If Hickman wanted to callback to Jean and Scott's relationship, the 90s seem a more iconic time period. The wedding in X-Men #30, the marriage itself lasting throughout the 90s, them solidifying their family ties with Nathan and Rachel, etc...As great as Jean and Scott's relationship was during the Phoenix era, it unfortunately it invokes the retcon and separates Jean from her own story

 

[Supermanisdead]

I'm gonna get all the dawn of x books, but fallen angels and wolverine are just a single issue to test them. New mutants seems to be a rotating cast thing with the new x-men as well so that will be great.

 

[Manmademan]

Hickman says that now..I referenced PR#5 and XMR Annual #1 because that's the last we saw the costume prior to HOX #1, and Hickman is saying he's surprised we didn't "get" the context of the costume after just the first issue

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Hickman references the "most famous" time she wore it, not the most recent. That would be #137. And as mentioned, Jean didn't choose to wear the marvel girl outfit in PR#5. The phoenix created it attempting to change her mind and she immediately rejected the idea. She never "put the costume back on" there.

UXM 137 Jean wearing the MG costume was definitely more nostalgia and pride than looking into a future together with Scott since she planned from the start to end things herself if the Imperial Guard couldn't

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Look at the broader context. #137 is a story about Scott and Jean. everything else is secondary. In the moment she changes into that outfit, she explains that it's a mixture of nostalgia and pride, yes- but even though she's no longer the Phoenix, she is still a telepath with a psychic rapport with scott, and whatever is coming they'll face it together. Her relationship with Scott is a central part of that identity, and his name is the last thing she screams as she kills herself. What's the most important thing to Marvel Girl? Scott is and #137 is THE issue that firmly establishes this.

After a fairly long status quo where Scott and Jean had a fraught relationship, separation, saw other people, died etc Rosenberg's run ends with Jean walking out of nowhere, and immediately making out with scott in the middle of a battlefield, reestablishing their relationship with absolutely no leadup or explanation. The next time we see her, Jean is back in her "Marvel Girl" outfit and not the X-men Red getup. Why? Hickman says to go and read #137. This one is pretty obvious here.

If Hickman wanted to callback to Jean and Scott's relationship, the 90s seem a more iconic time period.

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You're missing here that Hickman is 47 years old. The 90s wouldn't be the most iconic time period for him, it would be quite a bit earlier than that and the Marvel Girl getup is his indication that he wants to return to that status quo. edit: I would also probably put "Betsy Braddock is back in her old body" in the same boat. The era Hickman is nostalgic for is not Jim Lee's 90s team.

double edit: as for the criticism of separating jean from her own story- the intent for #137 was for that to be jean herself. Everyone is aware of the retcon where that wasn't "really" her, but subsequent writers have honestly sort of just ignored this. The ANXM arc where the Shi'ar arrive on earth to wipe out the entire Grey family tree after they discover Jean has returned and put Teenage Jean on trial for things she hadn't yet done is probably the most blatant example of that.

"Jean Grey embodied the Phoenix when it obliterated 11 planets."
"Jean Grey is alive and needs to answer for her crimes."
"It is the feeling of the Shi'ar empire that it does not matter if she has not committed them yet. The creature who did it is alive and well."
"The Shi'ar empire will have Jean Grey answer for those crimes."
"The Crimes were committed. By. Her. And She will Answer for them."

The position of the rest of the intelligent races of the universe (note that the Kree, Spartax, Brood, and Annihilus are also present) is not that a copy of Jean Grey killed 5 billion people, Jean did.

 

[OmniGamer]

Manmademan, you're acting as if I'm saying Hickman meant to reference PR5 all this time...ik not...I'm saying when HOX dropped in July, we the reader, have that as the the newest/freshest impression in our minds...of an adult Jean in that very particular garb.

Since people didn't catch what he was trying to throw...NOW he's saying "hey, go look at the most famous time she switched to that outfit", which points to UXM 137 (which I happen to physically own back home)

The problem some of us have with the outfit, besides aesthetics for some, is it points to a regression of character. Jean was dead for some 14 years, comes back and is largely her own woman, and briefly got to talk with Scott and say goodbye before he died again(then came back thanks to a Phoenix pacemaker...because comics). She can love Scott without having to dress in an older outfit, especially if that outfit is supposed to symbolize a more naive version of their love...they've both grown and changed

 

[Manmademan]

Manmademan, you're acting as if I'm saying Hickman meant to reference PR5 all this time...ik not...I'm saying when HOX dropped in July, we the reader, have that as the the newest/freshest impression in our minds...of an adult Jean in that very particular garb.

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This is making a pretty big assumption that people were reading PR5 and would have it fresh in their minds. That issue was published nearly two years ago when the Xmen franchise was honestly at a low point. HOX is bringing in lapsed readers and new readers who may be familiar with #137, but not with a short arc published two years ago.

Edit: To make this explicit, the circulation of PR#5 was about 47,000 going by diamond's numbers. The circulation of HOX #1 on the other hand was a whopping 185,000. the vast majority of those reading House of X had not read PR#5 and Hickman knew this.

In addition, that outfit briefly appears for a single panel, and not even in full! (though the mask is seen for a few panels more) Why would it even register? It wasn't a significant part of the issue at all!

In-universe, Jean makes no conscious decision to wear the marvel girl outfit during that arc, and it's a stretch to say most readers would have recalled it appeared there. i disagree strongly with your position here.

Since people didn't catch what he was trying to throw...NOW he's saying "hey, go look at the most famous time she switched to that outfit", which points to UXM 137 (which I happen to physically own back home)

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Hickman assumed that UXM 137 was so famous and such a major issue that the readers would immediately have gotten the reference. Hickman was disappointed here, likely because most of the readership hasn't actually read that issue- being 47 he likely read that during his formative years but few CURRENT readers have. Most would have read it as a backissue or trade, if at all and not at publication or near it when it would have had the greatest impact.

The problem some of us have with the outfit, besides aesthetics for some, is it points to a regression of character. Jean was dead for some 14 years, comes back and is largely her own woman, and briefly got to talk with Scott and say goodbye before he died again(then came back thanks to a Phoenix pacemaker...because comics). She can love Scott without having to dress in an older outfit, especially if that outfit is supposed to symbolize a more naive version of their love...they've both grown and changed

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no one said naive, or that it would be a regression. My hypothesis here is that Hickman intends to signal a return to the status quo between jean and scott that existed during the Marvel Girl era, and the entire issue of #137 is about nothing but their relationship, and how important Scott was to Marvel Girl.

Once again- Rosenberg reestablishing the Scott/Jean Dynamic the way he did in the closing pages of UXM explicitly sets this up. He is not establishing the dull as dishwater married scott and jean status quo of Lee's 90s series, the bizarro Scott/Jean/Maddy/Nathan Relationship of the Inferno era or the dysfunctional relationship of Whedon's ANXM. He's going way back to the 70s when that relationship dynamic was a lot different, and the Marvel Girl outfit in HOX is meant to emphasize that- just as it did in #137, which Hickman tells everyone to go and read.

 

[OmniGamer]

If that is the reason, then why wasn't Scott also put back in his older costume from that same era? Why is it being expressed unilaterally?

 

[TaleSpun]

It's definitely Logan and Moira that are having the affair.

Also, I bet he finds her via her scent - something easy to neglect.

 

[The Namekian]

I am going to push back and the reason she is wearing the marvel girl costume is that was her body pre Phoenix and the Phoenix Force altered her body in some ways the were not replicable or she became aware of what Charles is doing and that is the last scan he took of her before she refused to be "copied"

that costume change (and personality change) is too much of a Chekhov Gun not to hint at something that will come up later.

 

[TaleSpun]

that costume change (and personality change) is too much of a Chekhov Gun not to hint at something that will come up later.

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Eh, I'm pretty sure Manmademan has it figured out correctly. The "personality change" isn't even really solid evidence of anything and never has been. The scene where she shuts up Creed is perfectly in line with the character at this stage. Hickman's writing of her in the Orchis issue could just be off, period. There doesn't have to be some big explanation. He just didn't write the scene as well as some people think he should have.

 

[deimosmasque]

The only thing I disliked from Hickman's QnA was that he said that Omega Mutant list was set in stone.

As even discussed on just this one thread the list seems to be missing people who should be Omega Class. It worked better when it was just a list that could be added to it.

 

[TaleSpun]

The only thing I disliked from Hickman's QnA was that he said that Omega Mutant list was set in stone.

As even discussed on just this one thread the list seems to be missing people who should be Omega Class. It worked better when it was just a list that could be added to it.

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Eh, they needed to introduce some logic to it. The old list got us junk like Matthew Malloy. It was a buzzword with "stakes" attached to it and now it's not, so that alone is a net gain. You can be a very powerful mutant and be a threat, the writer just needs to actually put the writing work in instead of just dropping "OMEGA LEVEL!!!" next to some vague power.

 

[deimosmasque]

Honestly that was something the Age of Apocalypse added, that just sucked and was unnecessary.

The whole Alpha, Beta, Omega Mutant stuff.

For example.

Jubilee makes plasmoid bursts that look like fireworks. The stories even say she can just make one in your head and kill you. She can kill with a thought, not Omega Class.

Honestly power levels are always stupid and should just be ignore as they are just writer fiat.

Another example. Namor can sometimes be on the same power level as Thor, and sometimes be just slightly weaker than Thing.

Sometimes Hulk is as strong as Thor, other times he gets beat by Titania.

The mutant class system is honestly something that should have been discarded after AoA.

 

[caliph95]

Another example. Namor can sometimes be on the same power level as Thor, and sometimes be just slightly weaker than Thing.

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And sometimes he can take on Captain Marvel, Thor and Iron Man at the same time and be completely unfazed and no sell their attacks

Though to be fair Thor at least made a comment that was why that last they fought

Though it was underwater but iron man has fought him underwater before and the last time thor fought it was near water iirc and even fought underwater

 

[Alice]

Does anyone have the list of the Omega Level mutants handy?

 

[caliph95]

Does anyone have the list of the Omega Level mutants handy?

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[caliph95]

Storm inclusion is funny considering Mjonir can essentially create space storms and Thor has some weather powers he never uses

But I guess from the recent issues it just concerned with humans not aliens or gods

I wonder if you could argue about Vulcan also depending if Manmademan has Odin feats or something like that

 

[Alice]

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Thanks!

It's interesting, that Moira isn't on the list. Also interesting that they aren't listing Nate Summers. I guess this also confirms that Wanda Maximoff is now forever considered human?

 

[caliph95]

Thanks!

It's interesting, that Moira isn't on the list. Also interesting that they aren't listing Nate Summers. I guess this also confirms that Wanda Maximoff is now forever considered human?

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Moira isn't known as a mutant and her powers can be easily replicated with time travel and telepathy hell Reed can probably build a machine that sends his mind back to his past self. Though the real reason I imagine is because no one but 3 people know about Moira maybe 4 if Destiny told mystique

Scarlet witch in page that discusses the casualties that mutants has faced was called "The Pretender" (the salt)

Which Nate are you talking about Cable or Xman

 

[TheBlackMarvel]

I assume they mean X-Man (Nate Grey).

 

[Alice]

Moira isn't known as a mutant and her powers can be easily replicated with time travel and telepathy hell Reed can probably build a machine that sends his mind back to his past self. Though the real reason I imagine is because no one but 3 people know about Moira maybe 4 if Destiny told mystique

Scarlet witch in page that discusses the casualties that mutants has faced was called "The Pretender" (the salt)

Which Nate are you talking about Cable or Xman

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Yeah, I remember the pretender bit.

X-Man, Cable has never gone by "Nate", has he? X-Man is far more powerful.

 

[caliph95]

I assume they mean X-Man (Nate Grey).

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Yeah, I remember the pretender bit.

X-Man, Cable has never gone by "Nate", has he? X-Man is far more powerful.

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I don't know enough about Nate or what his actual powers are ask the the two Xperts

If he's just a super cable then Exodus and Jean being over him is weird but idk

If it's some form of reality manipulation then Franklin Richards is above everyone

 

[Alice]

I don't know enough about Nate or what his actual powers are ask the the two Xperts

If he's just a super cable then Exodus and Jean being over him is weird but idk

If it's some form of reality manipulation then Franklin Richards is above everyone

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He's pretty much a reality bender, last time I checked. Back when they wrote him out of the X-Books in the 90s he was basically a God, I assume Age of X-Man dealt with that as well.

 

[TheBlackMarvel]

X Man is a massive psionic, huge levels of telepathy, telekinesis and some precognition. He's not a reality warper though. He's essentially Cable if he didn't have to focus most of his power fighting the TO virus. (Which is something they should probably resolve now that they have Apocalypse onside.)
WRT to Age of X Man, IIRC he was using Celestial tech (and possibly David Haller's powers) to create that world.

 

[TheBlackMarvel]

DP

 

[Alice]

X Man is a massive psionic, huge levels of telepathy, telekinesis and some precognition. He's not a reality warper though. He's essentially Cable if he didn't have to focus most of his power fighting the TO virus. (Which is something they should probably resolve now that they have Apocalypse onside.)

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Is Kid Cable even being affected by the TOV? I admit to have never read any story he was actually in. :D

 

[TheBlackMarvel]

Is Kid Cable even being affected by the TOV? I admit to have never read any story he was actually in. :D

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Me neither but if he has a metal arm, the answer is most likely yes.

 

[caliph95]

Is Kid Cable even being affected by the TOV? I admit to have never read any story he was actually in. :D

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Me neither but if he has a metal arm, the answer is most likely yes.

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He almost died in Xforce because of it

Young Cable is just past cable before he became old and a softy

Time travel is weird

 

[BebopCola]

I still can't believe that I am suddenly going to be eagerly picking up X-Men comics regularly. I legit haven't done this since the 90s.

 

[Kalentan]

Do we know if Franklin is showing up in any of the X-men books or is there an ongoing F4?

 

[jon bones]

I still can't believe that I am suddenly going to be eagerly picking up X-Men comics regularly. I legit haven't done this since the 90s.

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It feels so nostalgic to be line-wide into X-Books. I am interested to see how sales of books look this month.

 

[Digital Dinosaur]

I still can't believe that I am suddenly going to be eagerly picking up X-Men comics regularly. I legit haven't done this since the 90s.

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I've heard so many people say exactly this.

The X-Men remain compelling characters. They just needed to coherent story to kickstart them again, rather than the meandering, wheel-spinning comics that contemporary Marvel tended to put out.

 

[BebopCola]

The hope is to now slowly ease my son into comics by introducing him to the Fox cartoon once Disney+ hits.

I have such a massive gap in my specific comics knowledge, but HoX/PoX was such a great, I dunno, soft-reset of the status quo makes it seem like an excellent jumping off point.

Also I cannot help but read any line by Apocalypse in John Colicos's voice.

 

[Neo Hartless]

Loved Hickman's sass in the Q&A:

"Why does Wolverine have a skeleton?"

"That's the least interesting aspect about the whole thing, dude, now here are better questions you could have asked"

 

[caliph95]

I've heard so many people say exactly this.

The X-Men remain compelling characters. They just needed to coherent story to kickstart them again, rather than the meandering, wheel-spinning comics that contemporary Marvel tended to put out.

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That's been a criticism of for ages while arguable a lot of other good marvel series have found a way to be fun or set a new interesting status quo or grow it

Xmen problem is ignoring the inhumans was that marvel had no idea what to do with then instead they put them in perpetual extinction events or just doing the same thing excluding stuff like Red and X23 they were just boring

 

[Prototype Viktor]

Thanks!

It's interesting, that Moira isn't on the list. Also interesting that they aren't listing Nate Summers. I guess this also confirms that Wanda Maximoff is now forever considered human?

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if Moria was Omega of her power she would have infinite lives instead of the finite amount one would think
i.e. she would instead go back to the activation of her power instead of conception so the universe would never progress unless she is kept alive disabled

 

[TaleSpun]

if Moria was Omega of her power she would have infinite lives instead of the finite amount one would think
i.e. she would instead go back to the activation of her power instead of conception so the universe would never progress unless she is kept alive disabled

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We don't know for certain she has a finite number of lives, we have what Destiny saw and we're taking her at her word that she actually saw it.

 

[Duane]

Moria doesn't have finite lives as a limitation of her power, other than the fact that it's game over if she dies at a younger age than her powers manifest. As long as she lives to her early teens, she WOULD get infinite lives. Destiny just knew that she dies early at some point around the tenth or eleventh life.

That's how I took it, at least.

 

[Violet]

Do we know if Franklin is showing up in any of the X-men books or is there an ongoing F4?

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There's an ongoing F4 but dunno how much he's involved in it

 

[Vic_Viper]

Is there going to be a new thread for all the Dawn of X books, or just the main X-Men on-going, or are we going to use this thread? Do we know how its going to work with Spoilers for each book?

(Sorry if this has already been asked and answered)

 

[Otakukidd]

Why is Exodus on the council but his alliance is none on the Omega list

 

[caliph95]

It's probably because Moira power while cool is essentially her mind time traveling to the past and Rachel transferred Kitty mind in days of future past so it's something that could be surpassed whereas no one can do what Magneto could at his level when it comes to magnetism

And if it's actually resetting the universe people with reality manipulation could just do that just rewind time

Why is Exodus on the council but his alliance is none on the Omega list

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The omega list is before the council was formed and before Exodus was even a Kratoan

 

[jon bones]

Is there going to be a new thread for all the Dawn of X books, or just the main X-Men on-going, or are we going to use this thread? Do we know how its going to work with Spoilers for each book?

(Sorry if this has already been asked and answered)

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This is the Dawn of X thread!

All issues from all 6 books will be discussed here, on day of release, without spoiler tags.

Any spoilery stuff - solicits, future talk, etc - please don't talk about here.

 

[Vic_Viper]

This is the Dawn of X thread!

All issues from all 6 books will be discussed here, on day of release, without spoiler tags.

Any spoilery stuff - solicits, future talk, etc - please don't talk about here.

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Cool Cool, thanks!

So freaking excited for all these X-Books lol. Just wanted to make sure it was ok to talk about any of them here.

 

[OmniGamer]

It's probably because Moira power while cool is essentially her mind time traveling to the past and Jean Gray transferred Kitty mind in days of future past

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That was Rachel Grey/Summers