Jonathan Hickman's X-Men |OT| Adaptation or Dominance(Open Spoilers, Gambit is the Witness)

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Chiaroscuro

Member
Oct 25, 2017
1,185
Love Moira, but Destiny is best.

Read the first bit of HoX2

Put Moira in her place!
Which makes me question the role of Destiny in all of these. She can see her future and in every Moira timeline her future is bad. She does nothing? All that speech to Moira be a better part of mutantkind but what about Destiny herself? Her powers are pretty much essential as well. Makes me Thing Moira would team up with her to predict the results of her actions, because she does not have many tries.
 

Canucked

Member
Oct 25, 2017
2,265
Which makes me question the role of Destiny in all of these. She can see her future and in every Moira timeline her future is bad. She does nothing? All that speech to Moira be a better part of mutantkind but what about Destiny herself? Her powers are pretty much essential as well. Makes me Thing Moira would team up with her to predict the results of her actions, because she does not have many tries.
Destiny lives for Mystique, and she's kind of a fatalist. She's not evil, but she's not good either. It's hard to tell sometimes if she would be more on xaviers side of balance or on Magnetos of superiority.

But mystique is the same way and even in Hickmans stuff she seems to be one of the few who is like "this is weird"
 

Manmademan

Member
Aug 6, 2018
4,917
Discussing the 616 sliding timeline would never make sense, since Marvel used to tie it to real world events like wars and news.

Take for granted the 616 timeline proposed by Hickman. The only thing worth discussing are the other Moira timelines and how they are different than Moira X timeline. Now I am wondering if House of X should be read as House of Ten (Moira) as well.
"The house of Xavier" is literally written on the title page of HoX #2.

Its not house of ten or meant to refer to Moira.

Xavier is still key here, but we don't know to what extent. Xavier's original dream of coexistence is incompatible with a separate mutant state- that one is in line with what Magneto has always advocated for. Xavier is clearly taking ideas here.

Along the same lines i would not be surprised at all to find that the improvements to Krakoa and the resurrection/healing of certain mutants has Apocalypse's fingerprints on them somewhere. Next to Sinister he's the individual most known for taking mutants and "improving" them past their natural limits.
 

deimosmasque

Member
Apr 22, 2018
1,286
Tampa, Fl
Which makes me question the role of Destiny in all of these. She can see her future and in every Moira timeline her future is bad. She does nothing? All that speech to Moira be a better part of mutantkind but what about Destiny herself? Her powers are pretty much essential as well. Makes me Thing Moira would team up with her to predict the results of her actions, because she does not have many tries.
The issue is that Destiny is a slave to the future she sees the longer out she looks. She forsaw things centuries in advance but she knows she cam only nudge those futures.

She also predicted her own death and felt there was nothing she could do to stop it. Instead she allowed it to happen and left her written prophecies behind instead.

Honestly I think the only people she even remotely cares about were Mystique and Rogue. She kind of saw the rest of humanity and mutantity as just there. If Mystique never went on a pro mutant stance, I dont think Destiny would act at all.
 

Chiaroscuro

Member
Oct 25, 2017
1,185
Destiny lives for Mystique, and she's kind of a fatalist. She's not evil, but she's not good either. It's hard to tell sometimes if she would be more on xaviers side of balance or on Magnetos of superiority.

But mystique is the same way and even in Hickmans stuff she seems to be one of the few who is like "this is weird"
Yeah Destiny can be a fatalist knowing that every future is fucked. But Mystique not. She would fight. The implication her is that since Moira never tried again to cure mutants, every other Destiny (and Mystique) would not know about her and her powers. Which is fine until you realize than they should have crossed paths (or at least indirectly with the X-men) in 616 allowing Destiny to discover Moira.

But what I meant is the opposite way, Moira keeps her knowledge. Why she never tried to use Destiny powers to check if her actions would be fruitful. Of course, that will reveals herself to Destiny.

Edited: besides it, every Moira action on each timeline after the first affects the mutantkind as much as a mutant cure. Meaning the Destiny should always be aware of her.
 

fiendcode

Member
Oct 26, 2017
10,894
The issue is that Destiny is a slave to the future she sees the longer out she looks. She forsaw things centuries in advance but she knows she cam only nudge those futures.

She also predicted her own death and felt there was nothing she could do to stop it. Instead she allowed it to happen and left her written prophecies behind instead.

Honestly I think the only people she even remotely cares about were Mystique and Rogue. She kind of saw the rest of humanity and mutantity as just there. If Mystique never went on a pro mutant stance, I dont think Destiny would act at all.
I have to disagree hard with the last part there, Irene was every bit for the cause as Raven and I think Hickman's take here rings pretty true. Destiny was ruthless. If anything I'd argue she was the real driving force in the duo and Raven's been largely spinning her wheels since losing her.
 

Manmademan

Member
Aug 6, 2018
4,917
Yeah Destiny can be a fatalist knowing that every future is fucked. But Mystique not. She would fight. The implication her is that since Moira never tried again to cure mutants, every other Destiny (and Mystique) would not know about her and her powers. Which is fine until you realize than they should have crossed paths (or at least indirectly with the X-men) in 616 allowing Destiny to discover Moira.

But what I meant is the opposite way, Moira keeps her knowledge. Why she never tried to use Destiny powers to check if her actions would be fruitful. Of course, that will reveals herself to Destiny.

Edited: besides it, every Moira action on each timeline after the first affects the mutantkind as much as a mutant cure. Meaning the Destiny should always be aware of her.
You're being too literal here. Destiny found moira originally because Moira would have been personally, directly responsible for wiping out mutantkind (and presumably Destiny herself) via her "cure."

Do later things Moira does affect mutantkind? Yes, but she isn't the cause of its extinction in each life, she simply can't prevent it, much like every other mutant can't prevent it. Destiny would never "see" her actions as a personal threat. Its implied that in every life the rise of machines is inevitable and will devastate mutantkind. Moira has nothing to do with this.

Destiny can't "see" Moiras presence as a mutant, just her absence. She's described as a blank spot where something should be but nothing is. Once Destiny knows what to look for this defense is ineffective but Destiny will have to rediscover this in each timeline- and she literally had to be looking right at Moira for this to be possible.
 

TaleSpun

Member
Oct 25, 2017
4,689
I also love the implication here that mutants here that mutants as a species are just generally smarter and more adept than humans, hence Moira being a wunderkind even in her first life.

Love Moira, but Destiny is best.

Read the first bit of HoX2

Put Moira in her place!
I missed Hickman dialogue soooooo much. This and Magneto and Cyke in HOX #1 totally have that Avengers feel.
 

Manmademan

Member
Aug 6, 2018
4,917
I also love the implication here that mutants here that mutants as a species are just generally smarter and more adept than humans, hence Moira being a wunderkind even in her first life.



I missed Hickman dialogue soooooo much. This and Magneto and Cyke in HOX #1 totally have that Avengers feel.
Moira was a wunderkind in her SECOND life because she retained information from her first.

Her first life was an unremarkable one as a schoolteacher.
 

Billfisto

Member
Oct 30, 2017
3,252
Canada
I also love the implication here that mutants here that mutants as a species are just generally smarter and more adept than humans, hence Moira being a wunderkind even in her first life.
Hrm? I didn't really catch that. It just said that she became a teacher and married and had kids and a normal life for the first life. For the second life it explicitly says that people thought she was gifted at an early age, but she really wasn't special and just knew how to do things like read, write, and walk from her previous life.

I actually found it a bit odd that she went from perfectly normal to assassin and a genius in several different fields.

I really wish the other issues would have versions that included the scripts, too. It was fun to see the behind-the-scenes workings for the first issue, even (especially?) with the redactions.
 

Palette Swap

The Fallen
Oct 25, 2017
3,289
but Destiny will have to rediscover this in each timeline-
When I reread the issue yesterday, one thing Destiny said really stuck out to me, in an inception.gif way : when talking about Moira’s next life, she says “I am much older than you are. My powers will have manifested, full of the knowledge of what we have done.
The italicizing is not mine.

She goes on with “you see, Moira, we are joined now”
Destiny definitely implies that having met Moira in one of her lives, her powers work so that she (Destiny) will always know about Moira’s powers in all her subsequent reincarnations. Destiny finding out about Moira only had to happen once.
 

Billfisto

Member
Oct 30, 2017
3,252
Canada
When I reread the issue yesterday, one thing Destiny said really stuck out to me, in an inception.gif way : when talking about Moira’s next life, she says “I am much older than you are. My powers will have manifested, full of the knowledge of what we have done.
The italicizing is not mine.

She goes on with “you see, Moira, we are joined now”
Destiny definitely implies that having met Moira in one of her lives, her powers work so that she (Destiny) will always know about Moira’s powers in all her subsequent reincarnations. Destiny finding out about Moira only had to happen once.
That's super weird. From what we've seen, Moira resets her body and all of reality back to 0 at each death. Although Moira observes her lives happening in a set order, technically they've never happened, or are all happening at once.

Destiny should only be able to see none of them, or all of them at once (including the ones that Moira hasn't lived through yet, herself).

How exactly do Destiny's powers work, again?
 

Chiaroscuro

Member
Oct 25, 2017
1,185
You're being too literal here. Destiny found moira originally because Moira would have been personally, directly responsible for wiping out mutantkind (and presumably Destiny herself) via her "cure."

Do later things Moira does affect mutantkind? Yes, but she isn't the cause of its extinction in each life, she simply can't prevent it, much like every other mutant can't prevent it. Destiny would never "see" her actions as a personal threat. Its implied that in every life the rise of machines is inevitable and will devastate mutantkind. Moira has nothing to do with this.

Destiny can't "see" Moiras presence as a mutant, just her absence. She's described as a blank spot where something should be but nothing is. Once Destiny knows what to look for this defense is ineffective but Destiny will have to rediscover this in each timeline- and she literally had to be looking right at Moira for this to be possible.
Fair points. Also it is importante to question how much Destiny is lying in that speech. Like she posed herself like the ultimate adversary, if ever Moira tries to act against her she will know and kill Moira first. That should not be completly true. Destiny is powerful and can see her future, but usually not that precised in a way to defeat every possible Moira attempt. Otherwise she would never be defeated, even against the X-Men.

Another thing is age Moira´s powers supposed to kick in (at age 13). Destiny told Moira if she dies before that age she is gone for good, and no ressurrection will take place (at least part of that is true, because Hickman is putting that age on the charts). But Moira 3 at this point is not trying to save mutantkind, that will came later with Moira 4 undestanding Xavier. Moira 3 hates being a mutant (because she will never will have the same happiness she had in live 1), she only invented the cure to not be a mutant anymore, that timeline has nothing to do with saving mutants. So why not to try to kill herself at the beginning of live 4? Maybe Destiny speech was effective to covert Moira but even so not testing her limitations is not much Moira.

Hickman is intentionally setting this plot point: at age 13 Moira gets the power of ressurrection. Before that she just gained the memories of her past lives (that memories comes from the power of her “antecessor”). But why? Must be important to the plot. Usually mutants get their powers activated at puberty, yes. But not all of them. Many are born with the mutation (like Kurt). So why Hickman made Moira this way is important.
 

TaleSpun

Member
Oct 25, 2017
4,689
Moira was a wunderkind in her SECOND life because she retained information from her first.

Her first life was an unremarkable one as a schoolteacher.
Hrm? I didn't really catch that. It just said that she became a teacher and married and had kids and a normal life for the first life. For the second life it explicitly says that people thought she was gifted at an early age, but she really wasn't special and just knew how to do things like read, write, and walk from her previous life.
Oh whoops. Y’all are right.
 

fiendcode

Member
Oct 26, 2017
10,894
I'm also reminded of Age of X where the "Moira" persona in Legion's head called herself X. Hickman also said he was a fan of Carey's X-work, deservedly so as Carey's one of the unsung greats.
 

Manmademan

Member
Aug 6, 2018
4,917
When I reread the issue yesterday, one thing Destiny said really stuck out to me, in an inception.gif way : when talking about Moira’s next life, she says “I am much older than you are. My powers will have manifested, full of the knowledge of what we have done.
The italicizing is not mine.

She goes on with “you see, Moira, we are joined now”
Destiny definitely implies that having met Moira in one of her lives, her powers work so that she (Destiny) will always know about Moira’s powers in all her subsequent reincarnations. Destiny finding out about Moira only had to happen once.
I read that differently. You pulled that quote out of context.

Destiny explicitly says she can't see Moira, a handful of panels prior. She can see events bending around her, but moira herself is invisible.

The quote you pulled is preceded by Moira asking "how do you think you can stop me?"

Destiny THEN says that she is much older, so that IF moira intends to repeat the evil work done to her people, by the time Moira is born Destiny will have full knowledge of what they have done there.

Similarly if Moira intends to attempt to kill Destiny, she'll see her death coming and avoid it.

IF moira intends to be a threat to Mutants or to her specifically, Destiny will see it.

Destiny goes on to say that she will be out there waiting for THAT version of Moira, specifically. Any other version of Moira wouldn't be known to her.
 

Blader

Member
Oct 27, 2017
9,885
I missed Hickman dialogue soooooo much. This and Magneto and Cyke in HOX #1 totally have that Avengers feel.
I don't have the issue in front of me now so I'm gonna botch it, but there's a line where he writes something about how AI/machines are like fire: it's not invented, just discovered, and Trask happened to be the first one burned by it. And I was like, damn, that's a good simile!
 

deimosmasque

Member
Apr 22, 2018
1,286
Tampa, Fl
I have to disagree hard with the last part there, Irene was every bit for the cause as Raven and I think Hickman's take here rings pretty true. Destiny was ruthless. If anything I'd argue she was the real driving force in the duo and Raven's been largely spinning her wheels since losing her.
Oh I have no doubt that Destiny was entirely ruthless. But I think she was ruthless for mystique's sake not her own or mutantkinds.

It has been implied that Destiny knew the day she would die the day her powers activated.

I would argue the reason she was so ruthless was because she wanted to complete mystique's plans before she died. Because she knew Raven would just start spinning her wheels after Destiny died.
 

Pachimari

Member
Oct 25, 2017
10,455
Just read it. Fuck was that a good read, damn. I love the whole thing. Moira kind of reminds me of my favorite character in my favorite novels (title of books:) Dune. in how she has the memories and experiences of who came before her.

That confrontation with Destiny was the coolest stuff. And it’s interesting how we don’t know how life 9 ends and how the Apocalypse War ultimately ends if it does.

I also found it interesting how Life 6 is left out completely, or did I miss something.
 

devenger

The Fallen
Oct 29, 2017
814
What? No? Where did you get this idea
At the end of one of the recent runs I didnt read, according to Wiki, Moira had the ghost of Destiny in her head.

I feel like more and more, our relaunch point at the end of these 12 issues will be Moira’s 11th life starting with her and Chuck deciding reg 616 pathway plus Krakoa and a few changes is the way forward.
 

deimosmasque

Member
Apr 22, 2018
1,286
Tampa, Fl
Oh yeah, Chaos war. I can assume that is now non-canon as the point was the ressurection of dead characters and its revealed that Moria was never dead.

Although I assume that it could have been the Shiar Golem that she apparently put in her place. in that case that would be who Destiny is currently possessing
 

The Silver

Member
Oct 28, 2017
4,746
Every time I see crazy sentinel stuff I think of Ultron. Robots taking over and he's missing, Annihilation Conquest Ultron would have hijacked all this shit.
 

fiendcode

Member
Oct 26, 2017
10,894
Oh I have no doubt that Destiny was entirely ruthless. But I think she was ruthless for mystique's sake not her own or mutantkinds.

It has been implied that Destiny knew the day she would die the day her powers activated.

I would argue the reason she was so ruthless was because she wanted to complete mystique's plans before she died. Because she knew Raven would just start spinning her wheels after Destiny died.
I still have to disagree. If anything this characterization seems to more reflect Mystique who's never moved past Destiny's death or gone back to really fighting for the mutant cause. She's just bounced from revenge plot to revenge plot, with the occasional arc where she obsesses over Rogue or avoids Kurt. She's been stuck and rudderless for 3 decades now.

Irene was always less fixated on Raven than vice versa. She loved Raven but Raven wasn't her entire life, she kept her secrets (the Diaries, Blindfold & her brother, her death, etc). Don't confuse her personal fatalism with her mutant solidarity either, she was fighting the good fight since the 1920s and I'd argue precogs have a much different perspective on death generally.
 

deimosmasque

Member
Apr 22, 2018
1,286
Tampa, Fl
I still have to disagree. If anything this characterization seems to more reflect Mystique who's never moved past Destiny's death or gone back to really fighting for the mutant cause. She's just bounced from revenge plot to revenge plot, with the occasional arc where she obsesses over Rogue or avoids Kurt. She's been stuck and rudderless for 3 decades now.

Irene was always less fixated on Raven than vice versa. She loved Raven but Raven wasn't her entire life, she kept her secrets (the Diaries, Blindfold & her brother, her death, etc). Don't confuse her personal fatalism with her mutant solidarity either, she was fighting the good fight since the 1920s and I'd argue precogs have a much different perspective on death generally.
Those are all very fair points to be honest. Things I never really considered. I'm going to mull those over for a while. I always like getting a fresh perspective because my partner and I rarely have different interpretations of comics so we are a bit bubbled sometimes.
 

Canucked

Member
Oct 25, 2017
2,265
Every time I see crazy sentinel stuff I think of Ultron. Robots taking over and he's missing, Annihilation Conquest Ultron would have hijacked all this shit.
Ultron want to enslave humanity because of his daddy issues.

Sentinels want to protect humanity because of bigotry.

They need to have a big fight so ultron can win and bulk up his robot army, the Inhumans can die or whatever for the cause. X-Men and Avengers fight it.
 

fiendcode

Member
Oct 26, 2017
10,894
Those are all very fair points to be honest. Things I never really considered. I'm going to mull those over for a while. I always like getting a fresh perspective because my partner and I rarely have different interpretations of comics so we are a bit bubbled sometimes.
Totally fair. To nerd out a little more I'd love to read about Raven & Irene's earlier history where Mystique was living as a man and they had a detective agency in 20s London while traveling around Europe fighting fascism. We got a taste of that in True Friends and a few references to it in Exiles but I need more. They also knew Logan back then.

Actually ruminating on Irene a bit more it strikes me that these revelations might also lend more significance to her death. She's the entire reason Freedom Force went to Muir Island in the first place and if they hadn't the Reavers likely would've murdered everyone there, including Moira. Her sacrifice here is sort of recast now in light of what we know, and she knew, about Moira X.
 

Zero-ELEC

Member
Oct 25, 2017
4,281
México
I'm not sure I like the retcon of Moira being a mutant?

It's interesting that Moira V didn't die from the Sentinel attack on Faraway, rather she was put in a coma and presumably died during the subsequent genocide in the nation...

What the heck happened to Moira VI?
My 12th crazy theory of the day: 616 is indeed Moira X but everything we're seeing now is Moira 6.
Or maybe Powers of X is Moira VI and House of X is Moira X?
 

Blader

Member
Oct 27, 2017
9,885
is it at all possible that Hickman is intending to retcon whole swaths of X-Men history as separate Moira lives? Marvel's sliding timeline just compresses an impossible amount of near-extinction level events for mutants in such a small amount of time, and I wonder if effectively creating 10 X-Men timelines here is a workaround meant to accommodate all that history and/or all the many alternate futures presented over the years?
 

Chiaroscuro

Member
Oct 25, 2017
1,185
is it at all possible that Hickman is intending to retcon whole swaths of X-Men history as separate Moira lives? Marvel's sliding timeline just compresses an impossible amount of near-extinction level events for mutants in such a small amount of time, and I wonder if effectively creating 10 X-Men timelines here is a workaround meant to accommodate all that history and/or all the many alternate futures presented over the years?
I don’t think so. All those events (including House of M and Age of Apocalypse) happened in 616 aka Moira X. All other Moira timelines are completely different stuff and new to the X-Men lore.

And if any purgue would be necessary, Secret Wars already provided the means. Moira’s different lives are not need to do that.
 

OmniGamer

Member
Oct 27, 2017
486
Just spitballing...

Moira was using that experiment on Magneto to try to help Proteus...both now listed as Omega level mutants

And this is just me, but I had always disqualified Magneto from being an OLM before because naturally, his body can't cope with the upper limits of his powers...like when his clone Joseph had to push himself to fix the magnetic storm that Magneto caused, he discorporated and became part of the magnetosphere

What if Moira's removal of this instability is what made him an OLM(for purposes still to be revealed) and possibly her son as well?