Jonathan Hickman's X-Men |OT| Adaptation or Dominance(Open Spoilers, Gambit is the Witness)

How should we tag spoilers?

  • Day of release spoilers are fine

    Votes: 109 51.7%
  • Give each issue a one week spoiler tag

    Votes: 65 30.8%
  • sPoiLEr tAGs fOR eVerYThinG

    Votes: 14 6.6%
  • No spoiler tags at all-even for speculation

    Votes: 23 10.9%

  • Total voters
    211
  • Poll closed .

soulmatic

Member
Oct 27, 2017
518
As satisfied and excited I am for how HoX and PoX turns out, anybody else concerned with the X-Team line ups in the aftermath?

For example: Jean Grey on an X-Force team?! Aren't the X-Force supposed to be clandestine assassination type of squad. A lot of the character line ups seem so out of place and lacking relevance to the squad line up.

Marauders line up not having Gambit, Sabertooth, or even Archangel. The characters who would be or should be a shoe in due to history (ex: Mutant Massacre) and association. Just seems like a missed opportunity to me. Uncanny X-Force (Rick Remender) is the type of perfect storm type of teams I was looking for.

Here is the link for the Team Line-Ups

New Mutants squad looks exquisite straight up.
 

OmniGamer

Member
Oct 27, 2017
484
It's no fun doing the same stuff over and over again

Also, it's my understanding that Jean and Sage will be acting as Intel, and not field ops
 

Manmademan

Member
Aug 6, 2018
4,888
As satisfied and excited I am for how HoX and PoX turns out, anybody else concerned with the X-Team line ups in the aftermath?

For example: Jean Grey on an X-Force team?! Aren't the X-Force supposed to be clandestine assassination type of squad. A lot of the character line ups seem so out of place and lacking relevance to the squad line up.

Marauders line up not having Gambit, Sabertooth, or even Archangel. The characters who would be or should be a shoe in due to history (ex: Mutant Massacre) and association. Just seems like a missed opportunity to me. Uncanny X-Force (Rick Remender) is the type of perfect storm type of teams I was looking for.

Here is the link for the Team Line-Ups

New Mutants squad looks exquisite straight up.
The solicits don't really say very much, but I think the fact that one of these X-men teams is calling itself "Marauders" here is a pretty big hint that the mutant massacre did not/may not happen in the post HoX status quo.

Can you think of ANY reason any of those Xmen would name their team after a pack of killers that were their greatest antagonists for years? It's like finding out the next Avengers team led by Steve Rogers was running around calling itself "Masters of Evil" or Peter Parker started a team of spider-people and called it "The Sinister Six."
 

soulmatic

Member
Oct 27, 2017
518
The solicits don't really say very much, but I think the fact that one of these X-men teams is calling itself "Marauders" here is a pretty big hint that the mutant massacre did not/may not happen in the post HoX status quo.

Can you think of ANY reason any of those Xmen would name their team after a pack of killers that were their greatest antagonists for years? It's like finding out the next Avengers team led by Steve Rogers was running around calling itself "Masters of Evil" or Peter Parker started a team of spider-people and called it "The Sinister Six."
That's what makes it strange to me and actually piques interest. Seeing the team name "Marauders" automatically makes me think of the Massacre. Bro, I hope they don't just erase that from the actual cannon of the X-Men. It's such a seminal and pivotal moment. Marauders instead could have been a great villains perspective book like a Thunderbolts with Zemo or a Dark Avengers type of thing.

Hickman is the Polygon article saying Marauders is his favorite and amazing. So best believe I'll be reading these all. Feels good that the X-Men are back in the forefront.
 

Chiaroscuro

Member
Oct 25, 2017
1,161
That's what makes it strange to me and actually piques interest. Seeing the team name "Marauders" automatically makes me think of the Massacre. Bro, I hope they don't just erase that from the actual cannon of the X-Men. It's such a seminal and pivotal moment. Marauders instead could have been a great villains perspective book like a Thunderbolts with Zemo or a Dark Avengers type of thing.

Hickman is the Polygon article saying Marauders is his favorite and amazing. So best believe I'll be reading these all. Feels good that the X-Men are back in the forefront.
But he also said that Marauders is the longest title in development, and I guess it was not his idea, it was the writer’s pitch. I guess he integrated all other ideas into his plan, but the choice of naming them Marauders maybe wasn’t his idea.
 

Manmademan

Member
Aug 6, 2018
4,888
That's what makes it strange to me and actually piques interest. Seeing the team name "Marauders" automatically makes me think of the Massacre. Bro, I hope they don't just erase that from the actual cannon of the X-Men. It's such a seminal and pivotal moment. Marauders instead could have been a great villains perspective book like a Thunderbolts with Zemo or a Dark Avengers type of thing.

Hickman is the Polygon article saying Marauders is his favorite and amazing. So best believe I'll be reading these all. Feels good that the X-Men are back in the forefront.
I was about to make a quip about how Angel/Archangel would react to having an X-men team rolling around with the name of the pack of psychos that LITERALLY crucified him and left him for dead in the sewers-

but then I noticed that of the O5 X-men, Angel/Archangel is the only one NOT pictured in those solicits- even though Jean is there twice. Along with Apocalypse being a regular team member I think that might be more hints that this particular event may have changed a bit.
 

Manmademan

Member
Aug 6, 2018
4,888
But he also said that Marauders is the longest title in development, and I guess it was not his idea, it was the writer’s pitch. I guess he integrated all other ideas into his plan, but the choice of naming them Marauders maybe wasn’t his idea.
The article makes it sound like it was Gerry Duggan's idea after he heard Hickman's pitch for the new direction of the X-men franchise. So the new direction came first from Hickman, and hearing what Hickman wanted to do, Gerry pitched him on the Marauders concept.

Marauders is an amazing book,” Hickman said immediately, when asked. “And it gets the world of what we’re doing in a way that is perfect and unique. The other books are cool, they get it, but Gerry had a distinct advantage because he has been in the writers room every time I’ve pitched this, so it’s been in his head a longer period of time. [...] He heard my pitch and said ‘Oh my god, I want to do this book.’”
Hard to say whether the concept or the name came first (probably the concept) but the name comes with some pretty massive baggage. Everyone on that team with the exception of Pyro II would know to stay well away from it.
 

deimosmasque

Member
Apr 22, 2018
1,259
Tampa, Fl
Unless the book is just called Maurders and not the team. There have been other books that have done that in the past.

They have been talking about a pirate style theme for the book and the actual definition of a maurader doesn't really have much to do with massacre. The term maurader means raider, looter, pirate, etc. The book is obvious not supposed to be about a villian team so we will see what it does.

As for the X-Force team. Jean and Beast being the conscience for a black ops style team could work very well. It can be argued (by Cyclops himself even) that the biggest mistake of the previous X-Force team was it having no moral compass to help reign it in. The odd man on that team to me is Quinten. I can't believe Wolvie would let a child be on an team of killers seeing how his school was to prevent exactly that.
 

devenger

The Fallen
Oct 29, 2017
809
But he also said that Marauders is the longest title in development, and I guess it was not his idea, it was the writer’s pitch. I guess he integrated all other ideas into his plan, but the choice of naming them Marauders maybe wasn’t his idea.
I remember him saying he wanted to use names with an Xpast recognition but reinvent them, like Fallen Angels has no connection to mutant lobsters.

If Kitty’s group is somehow the “if youre caught, we dont know you group”... maybe their Marauders.
 
Oct 31, 2017
3,480
So all or lifes are one continuous cycle like groundhog day where she is always born the same year, or is it a straight timeline where she is born again the year she died?

I'm sure I'm not making sense, so basically my question is, for example:

1) Life 1 born in 1920, died in 1974. Life 2 born in 1974 died in 1993. Life 3 born in 1993 died in 2015, etc
Or
2) Life 1 born in 1920 died in 1994. Life 2 born in 1920 died in 1940. Life 3 born in 1920 died in 1970 etc
 
Oct 25, 2017
3,755
So all or lifes are one continuous cycle like groundhog day where she is always born the same year, or is it a straight timeline where she is born again the year she died?

I'm sure I'm not making sense, so basically my question is, for example:

1) Life 1 born in 1920, died in 1974. Life 2 born in 1974 died in 1993. Life 3 born in 1993 died in 2015, etc
Or
2) Life 1 born in 1920 died in 1994. Life 2 born in 1920 died in 1940. Life 3 born in 1920 died in 1970 etc
Option 2
 

SamAlbro

Member
Oct 25, 2017
3,484
So all or lifes are one continuous cycle like groundhog day where she is always born the same year, or is it a straight timeline where she is born again the year she died?

I'm sure I'm not making sense, so basically my question is, for example:

1) Life 1 born in 1920, died in 1974. Life 2 born in 1974 died in 1993. Life 3 born in 1993 died in 2015, etc
Or
2) Life 1 born in 1920 died in 1994. Life 2 born in 1920 died in 1940. Life 3 born in 1920 died in 1970 etc

Marvel's rules for time travel are that time travel creates alternate realities, instead of altering the course of reality. Which means all of Moira's past lives exist out there in the multiverse.

Her power is probably more accurately a psychic link to alternate reality selves that activates from the endpoint of one instance's life at the beginning of another's, which would be perceived as reincarnation.
 

Manmademan

Member
Aug 6, 2018
4,888
Marvel's rules for time travel are that time travel creates alternate realities,
This isn't accurate. The Age of Ultron event "broke time" so that time travel no longer creates alternate realities. The future of Marvel 616 is therefore fluid and has multiple potentially valid alternate futures that can coexist.

example: 2099 was originally the canon future of the marvel universe. When marvel decided to move on from it, it was shifted to an alternate reality.
Post age of ultron, 2099 is no longer an alterate reality, but the future of the marvel universe again. However, the spiderman 2099 v.3 book went into detail on this, explaining that events that happened in the present would change what 2099 was. Attempts to get "back" to 2099 as we knew it repeatedly failed as the future simply kept changing due to events that happened (or did not happen) in the present. You could easily time travel to Marvel 616 in the year 2099, but every time the attempt was made the world was radically different.

Moira has been changing 616 over and over again every time she reincarnates because of a similar issue.

Her power is probably more accurately a psychic link to alternate reality selves that activates from the endpoint of one instance's life at the beginning of another's, which would be perceived as reincarnation.
nope. see the above.
 

TRUE ORDER

Member
Oct 30, 2017
2,285
TOP COMIC BOOKS (by units) PRICE PUBLISHER
1 House of X #1 $5.99 Marvel
2 Powers of X #1 $5.99 Marvel
3 Amazing Spider-Man #25 $7.99 Marvel
4 Walking Dead #193* $3.99 Image
5 Batman: Last Knight on Earth #2 $5.99 DC
6 Batman: Curse of the White Knight #1 $4.99 DC
7 The Batman Who Laughs #7 $4.99 DC
8 Black Cat #2 $3.99 Marvel
9 Immortal Hulk #20 $3.99 Marvel
10 Batman #74 $3.99 DC

Great news for my favorite mutants!!
I really hope that Hickman re establishes the X-Men as prominent Marvel characters


TOP COMIC BOOKS (by dollars) PRICE PUBLISHER
1 House of X #1 $5.99 Marvel
2 Powers of X #1 $5.99 Marvel
3 Amazing Spider-Man #25 $7.99 Marvel
4 Batman: Last Knight On Earth #2 $5.99 DC
5 Walking Dead #193* $3.99 Image
6 Batman: Curse of The White Knight #1 $4.99 DC
7 The Batman Who Laughs #7 $4.99 DC
8 Black Cat #2 $3.99 Marvel
9 Immortal Hulk #20 $3.99 Marvel
10 Vampirella #1* $3.99 Dynamite
 

soulmatic

Member
Oct 27, 2017
518
As for the X-Force team. Jean and Beast being the conscience for a black ops style team could work very well. It can be argued (by Cyclops himself even) that the biggest mistake of the previous X-Force team was it having no moral compass to help reign it in. The odd man on that team to me is Quinten. I can't believe Wolvie would let a child be on an team of killers seeing how his school was to prevent exactly that.
I like the idea of having Jean & Beast being a moral compass. Especially seeing Hank's reaction when finding out about Cyke's kill squad. But here's the thing, look at that roster they only really got 3 well known killers on that X-Force squad at the moment. (Logan, Domino, & Black Tom).

Hoping they get a cool uniformed color scheme to piece the whole unity of the teams together. Magik's New Mutants team got that on lock already.

example: 2099 was originally the canon future of the marvel universe. When marvel decided to move on from it, it was shifted to an alternate reality.
Post age of ultron, 2099 is no longer an alterate reality, but the future of the marvel universe again. However, the spiderman 2099 v.3 book went into detail on this, explaining that events that happened in the present would change what 2099 was. Attempts to get "back" to 2099 as we knew it repeatedly failed as the future simply kept changing due to events that happened (or did not happen) in the present. You could easily time travel to Marvel 616 in the year 2099, but every time the attempt was made the world was radically different.
Damn!! Been out of the comics loop for a minute, this is all new info for me. I was on the same conclusion as Sam that Marvel operated on changed/altered timelines created different alternate realities unless stated otherwise. I'm gonna have to read Age of Ultron sometime.
 

Manmademan

Member
Aug 6, 2018
4,888
I'm gonna have to read Age of Ultron sometime.
I wouldn't recommend this. It's not a good event.

The only notable thing about it is that Marvel used it as an excuse to "redo" how time worked. Time was "broken" after that event (time travel was used excessively to "fix" things Ultron did) and subsequently the "new timeline" rule about time travel went away.

It used to be only Doom's time machine specifically messed with time this way, but after Ultron pretty much all time travel does. Other good examples here are Eva Bell in Bendis' Uncanny and everything the 05 did.
 

The Silver

Member
Oct 28, 2017
4,743
clearly the title should be changed to Moira's Bizarre Adventure, no one wants to be reminded of Gambit, not even Gambit.
 

OmniGamer

Member
Oct 27, 2017
484
Gambit is the witness to what? I haven't read the comic yet. Spoil away.
Related to Bishop's future timeline and the mystery of who killed the X-Men...The Witness appeared to be the older Gambit of that future and so Bishop suspected him. It turned how to be Xavier himself as his Onslaught persona


 

Bufbaf

Member
Oct 25, 2017
2,352
Hamburg, Germany
I love all of this so much and I don't even read regular X-Men that often.

Whatever Hickman has in mind, I hope it won't be immediately forgotten by other writers once he's off the books.
 

soulmatic

Member
Oct 27, 2017
518
Gambit is the witness to what? I haven't read the comic yet. Spoil away.
Uncanny X-Men #287 (The Witness, Malcolm and Randall get murked)


X-MEN #8 (Bishop vs Gambit, Bella Donna Boudreaux (Gambit's wife from the Thieves Guild)

Uncanny X-MEN #334 (Bishop & Gambit vs the Juggernaut)


John Romita Jr, Jim Lee and Joe Mad art!
 

TaleSpun

Member
Oct 25, 2017
4,670
I bet the explanation for Moira 9 still going despite 10 being born is that reincarnation and resurrection are two distinct things. Moira 9 died, but was then resurrected by Apocalypse as horseman.
 

Pachimari

Member
Oct 25, 2017
10,423
I bet the explanation for Moira 9 still going despite 10 being born is that reincarnation and resurrection are two distinct things. Moira 9 died, but was then resurrected by Apocalypse as horseman.
So you saying Moira 9 could have died, then reincarnated as Moira X, but then Moira 9 was resurrected by Apocalypse?

So anything that happens in Moira 9's life after the resurrection will feed into Moira X's consciousness as she go along.

That's pretty cool to think about.
 

BuddyJones

Member
Oct 27, 2017
33
I bet the explanation for Moira 9 still going despite 10 being born is that reincarnation and resurrection are two distinct things. Moira 9 died, but was then resurrected by Apocalypse as horseman.
I think there is a more simpler explanation of the lives that go on.

Moira IX lives on til X^2 because she knows about Rasputin, Cardinal and the Tower when she's explaining the future to Prof. X in her Moira X life. When the timelines on the graph aren't solid, it just means that there is more story to tell.

In other words the graph is only for the HoX #2 issue, we'll probably see more events added as the series progress.
 

Chiaroscuro

Member
Oct 25, 2017
1,161
I think there is a more simpler explanation of the lives that go on.

Moira IX lives on til X^2 because she knows about Rasputin, Cardinal and the Tower when she's explaining the future to Prof. X in her Moira X life. When the timelines on the graph aren't solid, it just means that there is more story to tell.

In other words the graph is only for the HoX #2 issue, we'll probably see more events added as the series progress.
But there is s hole here. As you said the only Moira that lived enough to see the future (x^10) is Moira 9, that allied herself with Apokalypse. Moira 10 got her knowledge so can tell Xavier in timeline 10. But that is not exactly the future in this timeline (there are no guarantees that the future would be e exactly the same without her alliance to Apokalypse). So Cardinal/Rasputin May never happen that way in timeline 10. That implies that we are seeing timeline 9 in Powers of X at least in partial.
 

AmigoTaco

Member
Oct 27, 2017
24
I cant wait to read future spin off titles that cover each of these Moira lives. So much potential! Assassin Moira, Age of Apocalypse style Moira... etc.
 

The Namekian

Member
Nov 5, 2017
1,282
New York City
Unless the book is just called Maurders and not the team. There have been other books that have done that in the past.

They have been talking about a pirate style theme for the book and the actual definition of a maurader doesn't really have much to do with massacre. The term maurader means raider, looter, pirate, etc. The book is obvious not supposed to be about a villian team so we will see what it does.

As for the X-Force team. Jean and Beast being the conscience for a black ops style team could work very well. It can be argued (by Cyclops himself even) that the biggest mistake of the previous X-Force team was it having no moral compass to help reign it in. The odd man on that team to me is Quinten. I can't believe Wolvie would let a child be on an team of killers seeing how his school was to prevent exactly that.
It might not be a team of only killers. I get the feeling this is a much more benign/spy craft version of X-force where a powerful psychic could be useful to manipulate witness and targets.
 

Lashley

Member
Oct 25, 2017
27,063
The big thing confusing me is how time works with Moira being reincarnated.

Is she born in say 74, and when she dies she is reincarnated back in 74? As that's how I read it.

I get the sliding timeline and Marvels timeline is just confusing, but yeah
 
Oct 25, 2017
3,755
The big thing confusing me is how time works with Moira being reincarnated.

Is she born in say 74, and when she dies she is reincarnated back in 74? As that's how I read it.

I get the sliding timeline and Marvels timeline is just confusing, but yeah
Yes, she goes back to her same original birth, she just remembers everything from her previous life.
 

OmniGamer

Member
Oct 27, 2017
484
The big thing confusing me is how time works with Moira being reincarnated.

Is she born in say 74, and when she dies she is reincarnated back in 74? As that's how I read it.

I get the sliding timeline and Marvels timeline is just confusing, but yeah
Yes she's born in the same year every time, but with New Game+ as far as knowledge of her previous lives goes
comicsexplained is always good
I saw several of his vids and for the bordering-on-obnoxious amount of times he says "I've been reading comics for 25 years" or "I probably know more than 99% of people out there"....he makes some glaring mistakes...and without a "don't quote me" or "I could be wrong but...", nope.
 

crimzonflame

Member
Oct 25, 2017
2,099
comicsexplained is always good
I saw several of his vids and for the bordering-on-obnoxious amount of times he says "I've been reading comics for 25 years" or "I probably know more than 99% of people out there"....he makes some glaring mistakes...and without a "don't quote me" or "I could be wrong but...", nope.
Just watched his vid on HOX 2 and he got so many details wrong. Seemed like he was talking out of his ass and didn't actually read it.
 

amialion

Member
Oct 27, 2017
6
Kansas City, MO
I understand why people are confused by how Moira’s resurrection power works but, in terms of how it affects the world/reality, it is basically identical to what happened when Days of Future Past Kitty Pride transferred her mind to her younger self. The only difference here is that it’s triggered by death and happening over and over again.
 

TaleSpun

Member
Oct 25, 2017
4,670
I'm just incredibly excited for Hickman's Wolverine & The Summers X-Men book.
He said basically everyone is gonna be in it, so I wouldn’t be surprised if it’s just like Avengers where after that first arc you get a bunch of issues focusing on different combinations of characters or even one-offs like when he introduced a new Smasher.