Jonathan Hickman's X-Men |OT| Adaptation or Dominance(Open Spoilers, Gambit is the Witness)

How should we tag spoilers?

  • Day of release spoilers are fine

    Votes: 109 51.7%
  • Give each issue a one week spoiler tag

    Votes: 65 30.8%
  • sPoiLEr tAGs fOR eVerYThinG

    Votes: 14 6.6%
  • No spoiler tags at all-even for speculation

    Votes: 23 10.9%

  • Total voters
    211
  • Poll closed .

Palette Swap

The Fallen
Oct 25, 2017
3,299
Okay, good to know.

Just finished PoX #2 and this has been the most confusing of the four issues so far to me. The whole nimbus thing especially. I guess it’s just a universal mind that learns in its orbit. Master molds too. Guess these created sentinels in past comic book runs and ultimately created Nimrod the Lesser which is why the Asteroid K mutant leaders wants to destroy it with the data they got from the usb stick.
It’s a bit trite but I think an underlying point here is that stakes and outlook depend on the era.

In year 10, the issue is preventing the completion of Mother Mold, not just because it’s another super sentinel, but because it could bring about the emergence of Nimrod, the omega point of AI development that invariably marks the moment Sentinels gain the upper hand over mutants.

In year 100, Apocalypse and the last X-Men of Asteroid K are fighting for the survival of mutants against Nimrod. We don’t really know how that turns out BTW, but there’s nothing about Nimbus then.

In year 1,000, mutants and AIs have apparently converged into a single Terran civilization, and their stake is the survival of their civilization at a galactic or intergalactic scale. They put the Nimbus plan in motion 700 years before that because they apparently understood that in the long run, as their civilization grew, it would be judged by the (a?) Phalanx. If they were found lacking, Earth civilization would ultimately be processed as organic waste by a Technarch, while if they were deemed developed enough, they would evolve to the next stage, that is ascension. That’s why they had to create a Worldmind through the Nimbus plan.
At least, that’s my understanding of the material at the end.


So basically in a thousand years the mutants themselves are going through their own evolutionary process into a technospecies and are now requesting Ascension by the Phalanx?

Am I understanding that correctly?
Basically. I think that in the long run, it’s hard to really distinguish mutants from AIs, in that both are natural evolutions of mankind and are apparently meshed together in what appears to be a single society. From that point of view, Ascension seems desirable.
That’s a point Hickman has been hammering every week: we’ve always seen AIs as tools created by Homo sapiens, that sometimes turn on their creator, but AI will eventually emerge, regardless of particular events, because it’s part of an evolutionary, historical process, and as such, it’s an inevitability like mutants were.
 

TheIlliterati

Member
Oct 28, 2017
3,348
What I got from the issue is that the future timeline stuff we're seeing is all Moira IX. What it seems like is that Moira IX is still alive in the future scenes and that the events being depicted will somehow wrap back around and feed into the present-day stuff, which is Moira X's timeline. On the graph of Moira's lifetimes in Hox 2, there's a period in one of her lives where the graph says she was in a coma. During that period of her life, the solid line representing her lifetime on the graph becomes a line of chevrons. The same thing happens to Moira IX's life after the beginning of the apocalypse war, and the line of chevrons just continues on endlessly. The graph doesn't tell us how Moira IX's life ends, implying that it may have continued on very far into the future.

So, in chronological order, the ongoing plotlines would be in this order:

Year 100: Apocalypse, Wolverine, and the chimera mutants struggle against Nimrod in the future. Moira IX is somehow alive.
Year 1000: The librarian asks the Phalanx for Ascension. Moira IX is somehow still alive.
Year 1: Moira IX has died, we are now seeing Moira X. Whatever happens in the far future of Year 1000 is now part of Moira X's memories.
Year 10: The present day stuff with Cyclops and Maker Prof is leading to a different future than the one depicted in Year 100 and 1000 because Moira IX was alive during those futures so that Moira X could use whatever knowledge she gained during Moira IX's lifetime to change things.

HoX and PoX will likely conclude with the future depicted in Year 100 and Year 1000 being averted by the actions of Moira X and her associates in the present day of Year 10, leaving the future a blank slate for the X-Books as they finally break free of the endless cycle of inevitable dystopian futures they've been caught in for all 10 of Moira's lifetimes so far.
I think this is a good theory.
 

ibrahima

Avenger
Oct 25, 2017
1,311
So basically in a thousand years the mutants themselves are going through their own evolutionary process into a technospecies and are now requesting Ascension by the Phalanx?

Am I understanding that correctly?
More or less, but personally I don't think they are planning on ascending into the Phalanx.
 

Estro

Member
Jul 17, 2019
33
Really intresting issue. It seems that now that the seeds (heh) have been planted we're moving into a more "straightforward" narrative in each time zone, and I guess that will also be the case for the Krakoa narrative in the present next week in House of X. I guess this will keep being the case until the next issue highlighted in red in the reading order.

Some thoughts:

x0: Seems that we have confirmation that Moira's "breaking all the rules" means combining all the ideologies that she tried into one, and that what is happening with Krakoa in x10 is the culmination of that plan. Still expecting a "Xavier blocked everybody's memories once the seeds of the plan were in motion and Magneto, Moira, and him just got them back in the present" plot device in order to preserve continuity of past stories.

x10: Confirmation than the main conflict in this two series, and probably in the whole run, is going to be Mutant vs Machines as opposed to Mutants vs Man. Also a direct link between what is happening here and in X100.

x100: I got a much clearer picture of what's happening here than in the previous PoX issue. Still loving Nimrod's characterization. No idea who's body Krakoa seems to be using, but I'm sure someone will point it out.

x1000: As lost with this time-period this week as I was with x100 two weeks ago. Thankfully the comments here have already helped me clarify some doubts, and I'm sure a re-read will do the rest.

For now I'm preferring HoX issues to PoX ones by a litte margin, but I'm still loving how quickly and efficiently Hickman is using these to create his own particular mutant lore for his run going forward.
 

Manmademan

Member
Aug 6, 2018
4,928
Really intresting issue. It seems that now that the seeds (heh) have been planted we're moving into a more "straightforward" narrative in each time zone, and I guess that will also be the case for the Krakoa narrative in the present next week in House of X. I guess this will keep being the case until the next issue highlighted in red in the reading order.

Some thoughts:

x0: Seems that we have confirmation that Moira's "breaking all the rules" means combining all the ideologies that she tried into one, and that what is happening with Krakoa in x10 is the culmination of that plan. Still expecting a "Xavier blocked everybody's memories once the seeds of the plan were in motion and Magneto, Moira, and him just got them back in the present" plot device in order to preserve continuity of past stories.

x10: Confirmation than the main conflict in this two series, and probably in the whole run, is going to be Mutant vs Machines as opposed to Mutants vs Man. Also a direct link between what is happening here and in X100.

x100: I got a much clearer picture of what's happening here than in the previous PoX issue. Still loving Nimrod's characterization. No idea who's body Krakoa seems to be using, but I'm sure someone will point it out.

x1000: As lost with this time-period this week as I was with x100 two weeks ago. Thankfully the comments here have already helped me clarify some doubts, and I'm sure a re-read will do the rest.

For now I'm preferring HoX issues to PoX ones by a litte margin, but I'm still loving how quickly and efficiently Hickman is using these to create his own particular mutant lore for his run going forward.
Krakoa is using Cypher's body. He's the "mutant that could communicate with anything."

That being said, I'm not sold on "year 100" being Moira IX's lifetime. It doesn't mesh with what we know of the decades prior to year 100, which is that all of the mutant leadership disappeared or died decades prior due to stuff Sinister was doing.

Moira IX's lifetime has Apocalypse killing magneto, then xavier, and enslaving sinister before launching into a period of endless war with his horsemen. There's no Krakoa in that timeline, because Xavier never creates the X-men. Year 100 seems to be a direct outgrowth of what happens in year 10, not a separate timeline.
 
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Stantastic

Member
Oct 25, 2017
2,364
x100: I got a much clearer picture of what's happening here than in the previous PoX issue. Still loving Nimrod's characterization. No idea who's body Krakoa seems to be using, but I'm sure someone will point it out.
My guess as to Krakoas body is Cypher?
He mentions something about his body being able to communicate with anything, and we have seen them cooperating in the present.

Edit: so close to actually getting a relevant answer in!
 

Proteus

Member
Oct 25, 2017
4,545
Toronto
Moira IX feels like a dangling plotline that Hickman or someone else will use in the future. I'm not sure how much it will directly affect the HoX or PoX story going forward.
 

Manmademan

Member
Aug 6, 2018
4,928
Moira IX feels like a dangling plotline that Hickman or someone else will use in the future. I'm not sure how much it will directly affect the HoX or PoX story going forward.
Right. I think it will get revisited, and there is definitely stuff that occurs in the future of Moira IX that will be relevant to Moira X going the "revolutionary" route, but I can't see how PoX is literally the lifetime of Moira IX. Some events occur in more than one timeline though, and apparently things like Nimrod are inevitable.

I THINK (but don't quote me on it) Moira IX is the only other timeline where we explicitly see that version of Nimrod pop up.

My current theory (though this is just spitballing) is that by year 100, Moira X has been captured by Nimrod, and exists as part of Nimrod's artificial intelligence along with many other mutants- not quite alive, but not quite "dead" either. By year 1000 that artificial intelligence is on the verge of decaying, but Nimrod/Whoever that is are pursuing a plan to merge earth with a vastly more intelligent species (the retconned Phalanx). Ascension would give what remains of Moira X access to a level III intelligence, knowledge sufficient to resolve the man/mutant/machine conflict when she resurrects in life 11.
 
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Manmademan

Member
Aug 6, 2018
4,928
So Xavier has all those omegas at his disposal and he sends Cyclops?
Cyclops is a commander/team leader. It's not always about raw power- especially since Sentinels by year 10 have already learned to adapt.

Think about why Captain America always seems to lead the Avengers despite being the least powerful member.

I assume Master Molds are made out of materials that Magneto can't manipulate?
That, or the aforementioned ability to adapt, yes. Sentinels inevitably end up killing everyone, Magneto included. He's never going to be enough on his own to stop them.
 

Tabs2002

Member
Feb 1, 2018
665
Cyclops is a commander/team leader. It's not always about raw power- especially since Sentinels by year 10 have already learned to adapt.

Think about why Captain America always seems to lead the Avengers despite being the least powerful member.



That, or the aforementioned ability to adapt, yes. Sentinels inevitably end up killing everyone, Magneto included. He's never going to be enough on his own to stop them.
He was a great leader when the X-Men were fighting purifier level threats. Multiple Master Molds seem so far above his level. Sometimes raw power matters more than leadership. Magneto should be in charge of the mission.
 

Harpoon

Member
Oct 27, 2017
2,600
Given the timeline last week, I’m feeling more and more that X0 actually isn’t so much “Year One” as it is “Stuff Before Year One.”
 

Manmademan

Member
Aug 6, 2018
4,928
He was a great leader when the X-Men were fighting purifier level threats. Multiple Master Molds seem so far above his level. Sometimes raw power matters more than leadership. Magneto should be in charge of the mission.
Come on Man. Cyclops is the longest tenured leader the X-men have not named professor X, and has led them to victory through multiple extinction level and omega level threats *including Magneto*.

Hell, Magneto has ended up following Cyclops far more often than the reverse. Cyclops is the best field leader/commander/tactician the X-men have. Everyone else (Storm/Rogue/Havok/Magneto/Jean) is a distant second.
 

Proteus

Member
Oct 25, 2017
4,545
Toronto
Cyclops is always the unsung hero. He gets shit done but without all the bravado and flair of some other characters in the X line.
 

Palette Swap

The Fallen
Oct 25, 2017
3,299
He was a great leader when the X-Men were fighting purifier level threats. Multiple Master Molds seem so far above his level. Sometimes raw power matters more than leadership. Magneto should be in charge of the mission.
I’d argue having a victory in Second Coming on his resume works in his favor. Cyclops got a ton of big tactical or strategic wins as a leader. A trait Magneto doesn’t exactly share.
 

Billfisto

Member
Oct 30, 2017
3,254
Canada
Reading this issue, I really wish I knew more about the whole Phalanx/Technarchy stuff. Cypher had Warlock stuff all over his arm in House of X #1, I wonder if that means anything.

I wonder if Cable still exists and how he fits into things.
 

Tabs2002

Member
Feb 1, 2018
665
Hell, Magneto has ended up following Cyclops far more often than the reverse.
I stopped reading Fraction's Uncanny because of this. It was a Cyclops solo disguised as a team book.

I’d argue having a victory in Second Coming on his resume works in his favor. Cyclops got a ton of big tactical or strategic wins as a leader. A trait Magneto doesn’t exactly share.
Magneto doesn't have many wins coz he's a villain. Villains always lose at the end of the day. Having Magneto be the team leader would be something new. I dislike Cyclops having such a prominent position, It means writing everything around his power levels. During the "lost decade" so many characters took a backseat to him. Storm is barely a character these days.
 

Chiaroscuro

Member
Oct 25, 2017
1,188
My current theory (though this is just spitballing) is that by year 100, Moira X has been captured by Nimrod, and exists as part of Nimrod's artificial intelligence along with many other mutants- not quite alive, but not quite "dead" either. By year 1000 that artificial intelligence is on the verge of decaying, but Nimrod/Whoever that is are pursuing a plan to merge earth with a vastly more intelligent species (the retconned Phalanx). Ascension would give what remains of Moira X access to a level III intelligence, knowledge sufficient to resolve the man/mutant/machine conflict when she resurrects in life 11.
That is a good theory but I think everything needs to be solved in Moira X timeline. Moira 11 is a “bonus” for her for solving the mutant/machine conflict. Maybe a reward life when she can be happy again (a throwback to her first live).

Your theory works if we are seeing Moira 9 timeline at X^10 and X^100. Moira 9 suffers everything you said and the the Moira X ( at X^0 and X^1) will have the knowledge to make her revolutionary take.
 

Manmademan

Member
Aug 6, 2018
4,928
Reading this issue, I really wish I knew more about the whole Phalanx/Technarchy stuff. Cypher had Warlock stuff all over his arm in House of X #1, I wonder if that means anything.

I wonder if Cable still exists and how he fits into things.
I imagine the same way bishop and rachel do. A current day refugee from a potentially invalid timeline.
 

SamAlbro

Member
Oct 25, 2017
3,503
He was a great leader when the X-Men were fighting purifier level threats. Multiple Master Molds seem so far above his level. Sometimes raw power matters more than leadership. Magneto should be in charge of the mission.
Power makes you a good weapon, not necessarily a good leader.

Cyclops is a master tactician- probably the best in the Marvel Universe. That's why he leads.
 

Manmademan

Member
Aug 6, 2018
4,928
That is a good theory but I think everything needs to be solved in Moira X timeline. Moira 11 is a “bonus” for her for solving the mutant/machine conflict. Maybe a reward life when she can be happy again (a throwback to her first live).
Again- not a bonus but the only way mutantkind survives. Life 11 is chekhov's gun. We're going to see it IF/WHEN she makes the correct decision.
You're missing the point of these lives- they're the timeline of the entire marvel universe, not just her. a "happy" life as a bonus like Life 1 is a timeline where mutantkind gets wiped out again.

If she "solves" the mutant/machine conflict in life 10 then resurrects, all of that work is null and void and she has to repeat it all again or everything dies.

Your theory works if we are seeing Moira 9 timeline at X^10 and X^100. Moira 9 suffers everything you said and the the Moira X ( at X^0 and X^1) will have the knowledge to make her revolutionary take.
See the above. X^100 does not work as Moira 9, since it requires the existence of the X-men and Krakoa, neither of which happen during the timeline of Moira 9 since Apocalypse murdered Xavier and Magneto.

edit: A lot of the "X^100 must be Moira 9" talk seems to revolve around Apocalypse showing up, but ignoring all other context. Xandra, the child of Xavier and Lilandra is empress of the Shi'ar empire in year 100. Impossible if Xavier was killed on earth by Apocalypse from the jump.

Moira says flat out that the only thing she hasn't tried- ALL OF MUTANTDOM AS ONE - is the only way Mutantdom thrives on Earth. "All of Mutantdom" obviously includes Apocalypse, we just haven't seen her recruit him yet.
 
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FloBoJo

Member
Nov 5, 2017
10
So all my local shops got bum-rushed last week and I couldn't snag a copy of HoX #2. What are my options: buy digital/wait for a reprint on ____?

I'm swinging by day of release this time and hopefully get PoX #2 and just keep it waiting in the reading queue.
 

Chiaroscuro

Member
Oct 25, 2017
1,188
See the above. X^100 does not work as Moira 9, since it requires the existence of the X-men and Krakoa, neither of which happen during the timeline of Moira 9 since Apocalypse murdered Xavier and Magneto.
You are right about this point. I was thinking about that after I posted. Yeah, events in Moira 9 timeline hardly would cause what we see in PoX X^10 and X^100.

But I find hard to believe that Moira 11 is the Chekov’s Gun. That will imply a major reality change for all Marvel Universe, because up to now everything we are seeing, even outside the X-men books, are Moira X.

I still believe everything must be solved in Moira X timeline, because is she who is making something extraordinary.

But again, if PoX is always Moira X, she fails or X^10 and X^100 futures are part of the plan (which I can’t foresee either as the status quo Hickman is persuing).
 

mjc

The Fallen
Oct 25, 2017
3,333
I can get along with this idea that Hickman is playing with, evolving the mutant/human conflict into discussions about how mutants and humans co-exist with advanced AIs like the Phalanx. Cool stuff.
 

Manmademan

Member
Aug 6, 2018
4,928
You are right about this point. I was thinking about that after I posted. Yeah, events in Moira 9 timeline hardly would cause what we see in PoX X^10 and X^100.

But I find hard to believe that Moira 11 is the Chekov’s Gun. That will imply a major reality change for all Marvel Universe, because up to now everything we are seeing, even outside the X-men books, are Moira X.

I still believe everything must be solved in Moira X timeline, because is she who is making something extraordinary.

But again, if PoX is always Moira X, she fails or X^10 and X^100 futures are part of the plan (which I can’t foresee either as the status quo Hickman is persuing).
Hickman has been pretty open about "major changes for the X-men" from the start. This is something radical that will set the tone for the next several decades. I recall a quote saying something like the X-men and mutants in general have been dealing with a storyline of imminent extinction for far too long- the new status quo will be doing away with that and moving on.

So far, Hickman has been clear in this series that no matter what actions Moira takes, AI and Machines will inevitably arise and cause the extinction of the mutant race on earth. It's tends to start around year 10, already happened in Year 100 and the issue appears to be "solved" in year 1000- though too late for the vast majority of mutants that remain part of Nimrod's AI collective.

There's definitely a timeline reset coming- which Marvel does all the time, honestly- though how we get to a point where Mutants are no longer in danger of extinction and the sentinel threat is just flat out no longer an issue is a big question.

I can get along with this idea that Hickman is playing with, evolving the mutant/human conflict into discussions about how mutants and humans co-exist with advanced AIs like the Phalanx. Cool stuff.
Hickman repositioning the Phalanx as the peak of intelligent life, and something on par with an abstract power is something else. That's a hell of a retcon.
 

Manmademan

Member
Aug 6, 2018
4,928
They have had 1000 years of development themselves so I don't think it's that far of a stretch to think that is their path of evolution.
Read that again.

Hickman establishes that the technarchs- those things that Warlock (X-men) and the Magus (X-men) are, are simply artificial collective intelligences that are manufactured by the Phalanx- tools to remove from the universe societies that the Phalanx does not consider useful.

The Technarchs already exist as of Year 1, if not thousands of years before it, which means the Phalanx does also.
 

Proteus

Member
Oct 25, 2017
4,545
Toronto
Read that again.

Hickman establishes that the technarchs- those things that Warlock (X-men) and the Magus (X-men) are, are simply artificial collective intelligences that are manufactured by the Phalanx.

The Technarchs already exist as of Year 1, if not thousands of years before it, which means the Phalanx does also.
Hmm. I will have to go back over it again. Also brush up on my Phalanx. Last story I read with them was Annihilation Conquest and that was a while ago.
 

Manmademan

Member
Aug 6, 2018
4,928
Hmm. I will have to go back over it again. Also brush up on my Phalanx. Last story I read with them was Annihilation Conquest and that was a while ago.
Sure. It's all in the "Types of Societies [Galactic]" chart.

Previously the Technarch was the parent race. The Phalanx were simply a side effect of the techno-organic virus the Technarch occasionally pass on when absorbing organic life. When the Phalanx reach critical mass in a society, they innately end up forming a babel spire which summons the parent Technarch, who ends up destroying it (usually by converting and assimilating the entire planet).

Hickman reverses this, placing the Phalanx as a Type III Glactic Civilization (the highest that exists- far past the Supreme Intelligence or a Worldmind) that *intentionally constructs* A technarch as a tool to absorb and categorize entire civilizations. The Technarch is unaware of this. The Phalanx intentionally seed the T-O virus among civilizations they deem not worthy of existence, and use the Technarch as tools to eliminate them when convenient.
 

Billfisto

Member
Oct 30, 2017
3,254
Canada
I'm still of the opinion that there's some slight-of-hand going on here and things aren't happening on the same timeline, or in the presented order.

We have 10 Moira Lifetimes and four different points in time. We can't limit ourselves to thinking that those four points are on the same lifetime.

I just can't see the canonical timeline for the Marvel Universe being "and then in a hundred years the world is just a hellscape that none of the Marvel Heroes were able to do anything about and in a thousand years humans basically don't even exist anymore."

I'm popping around reading some older stuff, and Powers of X has the following:

X0: The X-Men. Year One. The Dream. [Xavier]
X1: The X-Men. Year Ten. The World. [Helmet Xavier(?)]
X2: The X-Men. Year One Hundred. The War. [Nimrod]
X3: The X-Men. Year One Thousand. Ascension. [Smurf]

X3 being "Ascension" now makes sense, at least. X0 being "The Dream" also makes sense. I'm still not entirely clear about "The World" and "The War", though. "The War" seems to be mostly over and won by Nimrod in X2. They've also established that an identical Nimrod exists in Moira IX's timeline, which ends in "Forever War".

As for "The World", it could refer to Mutantkind establishing Krakoa's sovereignty on the world stage, but it's still a weird way to sum it up. I'm thinking more and more that "The World" refers to some kind of artificial existence, either mental or computer-based.

The specific inclusion of the redundant phrase "The X-Men" each time is weird, especially considering they don't really exist yet (X0), it's unclear if they really still exist (X3), and it's unclear if they exist in X2 because all we've seen are some clone mutants under Apocalypse.
 

Manmademan

Member
Aug 6, 2018
4,928
I'm still of the opinion that there's some slight-of-hand going on here and things aren't happening on the same timeline, or in the presented order.

We have 10 Moira Lifetimes and four different points in time. We can't limit ourselves to thinking that those four points are on the same lifetime.

I just can't see the canonical timeline for the Marvel Universe being "and then in a hundred years the world is just a hellscape that none of the Marvel Heroes were able to do anything about and in a thousand years humans basically don't even exist anymore."
Why not? this was both 2099 and Age of Ultron. Both canonical futures of the Marvel Universe that were changed by time travel nonsense. Hell, Age of Ultron was waaaaaaaay worse. The planet was a Hellscape and organic life was virtually extinct within a matter of months.
 

Harpoon

Member
Oct 27, 2017
2,600
It really is pretty cool how Hickman’s broadening “man and mutant” to “man, mutant, and machine” in a way that hasn’t really been done before in X-Men. I like it.

I'm still of the opinion that there's some slight-of-hand going on here and things aren't happening on the same timeline, or in the presented order.

We have 10 Moira Lifetimes and four different points in time. We can't limit ourselves to thinking that those four points are on the same lifetime.

I just can't see the canonical timeline for the Marvel Universe being "and then in a hundred years the world is just a hellscape that none of the Marvel Heroes were able to do anything about and in a thousand years humans basically don't even exist anymore."

I'm popping around reading some older stuff, and Powers of X has the following:

X0: The X-Men. Year One. The Dream. [Xavier]
X1: The X-Men. Year Ten. The World. [Helmet Xavier(?)]
X2: The X-Men. Year One Hundred. The War. [Nimrod]
X3: The X-Men. Year One Thousand. Ascension. [Smurf]

X3 being "Ascension" now makes sense, at least. X0 being "The Dream" also makes sense. I'm still not entirely clear about "The World" and "The War", though. "The War" seems to be mostly over and won by Nimrod in X2. They've also established that an identical Nimrod exists in Moira IX's timeline, which ends in "Forever War".

As for "The World", it could refer to Mutantkind establishing Krakoa's sovereignty on the world stage, but it's still a weird way to sum it up. I'm thinking more and more that "The World" refers to some kind of artificial existence, either mental or computer-based.

The specific inclusion of the redundant phrase "The X-Men" each time is weird, especially considering they don't really exist yet (X0), it's unclear if they really still exist (X3), and it's unclear if they exist in X2 because all we've seen are some clone mutants under Apocalypse.
Xorn seems to be one of the original twins, not a clone, and tree guy also seems to be Krakoa possessing Cypher or something. Wouldn’t be surprised if that really is Wolverine and Magneto, either.
 

jon bones

Member
Oct 25, 2017
10,510
NYC
The usage of The World in context to what was built in Morrison's NXM is suspect.

Moreover, all of the text is in fucking Ultimate font type. What does that even mean?
 

Manmademan

Member
Aug 6, 2018
4,928
It really is pretty cool how Hickman’s broadening “man and mutant” to “man, mutant, and machine” in a way that hasn’t really been done before in X-Men. I like it.



Xorn seems to be one of the original twins, not a clone, and tree guy also seems to be Krakoa possessing Cypher or something. Wouldn’t be surprised if that really is Wolverine and Magneto, either.
Watch it be Daken and Joseph

The usage of The World in context to what was built in Morrison's NXM is suspect.

Moreover, all of the text is in fucking Ultimate font type. What does that even mean?
You find yourself stressing out about what font type might mean, it may be time to take a step back.
 

Billfisto

Member
Oct 30, 2017
3,254
Canada
Why not? this was both 2099 and Age of Ultron. Both canonical futures of the Marvel Universe that were changed by time travel nonsense. Hell, Age of Ultron was waaaaaaaay worse. The planet was a Hellscape and organic life was virtually extinct within a matter of months.
2099 was a dystopia for sure, but it was a somewhat reasonable, logical extension from the 1990s. It was also shown that time travel could (and did) change 2099. Age of Ultron was something the heroes were actively working to (and did) prevent, and not just presented as "here's what happens a hundred years later, and then a thousand years later".

I don't think the events of X2 and X3 can take place in 616 continuity, because we have 616 continuity that has characters from post-X2 and X3. The original Guardians of the Galaxy and Kang and so on.

If we're trusting Hickman's word, time travel and alternate dimensions aren't at play, so any changes to the future would need to be done per Moira lifetime.

Xorn seems to be one of the original twins, not a clone, and tree guy also seems to be Krakoa possessing Cypher or something. Wouldn’t be surprised if that really is Wolverine and Magneto, either.
I'm wavering on Magneto and Wolverine. Wolverine's longevity would make sense, but his line in POX#2 seemed odd - "A little mumbly nonsense and the world just opens up. I should've been born with brains." That sounds like a clone-y line of dialog to me.

I also keep thinking about the weird dialog in the scene with Cyke, Magneto, and Xavier. I'm thinking Xavier may be relying on posthypnotic suggestion or something. Between his telling Jean she's safe, Cyke to "Listen", and Percival wiping his mind using the words from Xavier's speech at the beginning of HOX#1 (with the characters specifically mentioning it's a phrase to do that), there's something hinky going on.
 

Harpoon

Member
Oct 27, 2017
2,600
The usage of The World in context to what was built in Morrison's NXM is suspect.

Moreover, all of the text is in fucking Ultimate font type. What does that even mean?
That same type has been used for tons of non-Ultimate comics; many early 00’s series used it. It just means they made a stylistic choice.
 

Manmademan

Member
Aug 6, 2018
4,928
2099 was a dystopia for sure, but it was a somewhat reasonable, logical extension from the 1990s. It was also shown that time travel could (and did) change 2099.
2099 was a future in which every single hero and villain was annihilated in an unknown catastrophe and all of the scientific knowledge of the heroic age was lost. Mutants existed but were devastated from their current population. Atlantis had been annihilated. Spiderman 2099 opened with Alchemax funding attempts to "rediscover" some of the knowledge that was lost. 2099 remains a canon future, only the potential nature of what the catastrophe is keeps changing. It's a moving target that could occur from any number of sources at any time.

Age of Ultron was something the heroes were actively working to (and did) prevent, and not just presented as "here's what happens a hundred years later, and then a thousand years later".
Age of Ultron was the inevitable outcome of Hank Pym creating Ultron. Ultron eventually evolves to a point where it is unkillable, sends it's conciousness back through time using the Vision, and murders every living thing on the planet. Ultron's rise was unavoidable, and attempting to murder Hank Pym to prevent him from inventing Ultron led to even worse outcomes. It very much was "here's what happens in the present, and here's what happens in the future." In the future Utron had eliminated all organic life- the planet was simply a giant machine intelligence controlled by him. The heroes that time traveled to the future to take him on were wiped out in minutes and never had a chance.

Significant and extensive use of time travel was required to insert a fail safe into Ultron's AI that would render it vulnerable to an algorithm and prevent the AoU future from occurring.

I don't think the events of X2 and X3 can take place in 616 continuity, because we have 616 continuity that has characters from post-X2 and X3. The original Guardians of the Galaxy and Kang and so on.
You misunderstand how Marvel handles timelines. Marvel allows for potential futures to exist alongside each other. The Original Guardians of the Galaxy timeline is a potential future, as is the one Kang comes from, as is the one Cable comes from, as is the one 2099 occurs, etc. Hickman is presenting a different future here that is likely but the other ones established to exist are irrelevant- time is fluid and they may or may not come to pass.

We're meant to assume that given the events going on right now, Year 100 and Year 1000 are the most likely futures for the X-men and the Marvel Universe, just as we are meant to assume that given the events going on in Spider-Man, 2099 is the most likely future and outcome for the Marvel Universe.
 

deimosmasque

Member
Apr 22, 2018
1,289
Tampa, Fl
2099 was a dystopia for sure, but it was a somewhat reasonable, logical extension from the 1990s. It was also shown that time travel could (and did) change 2099. Age of Ultron was something the heroes were actively working to (and did) prevent, and not just presented as "here's what happens a hundred years later, and then a thousand years later".

I don't think the events of X2 and X3 can take place in 616 continuity, because we have 616 continuity that has characters from post-X2 and X3. The original Guardians of the Galaxy and Kang and so on.

If we're trusting Hickman's word, time travel and alternate dimensions aren't at play, so any changes to the future would need to be done per Moira lifetime.



I'm wavering on Magneto and Wolverine. Wolverine's longevity would make sense, but his line in POX#2 seemed odd - "A little mumbly nonsense and the world just opens up. I should've been born with brains." That sounds like a clone-y line of dialog to me.
Honestly if he had said "made with brains" I would think Clone.

"I wish I was born with X" is a common enough turn of phrase with real people
 

Manmademan

Member
Aug 6, 2018
4,928
This issue sure didn't answer any questions about how exactly the Moira retcon fits into existing X-continuity, did it?

Not a complaint or anything, just an observation
The previous issues did. Moira's lifetimes 1-9 were previous timelines that are no longer valid.
Lifetime X is the current marvel 616 continuity. It's the only one where she marries, takes the surname McTaggart, and conceives proteus.