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I've been reading and rereading hox and pox and while I'm really digging it on every level I feel like this is a hard sell for normie readers thus far. I'm a X-men super fan and I'm just barely able to keep up with the story and call backs and continuity reworks. I've been pushing some friends to get into this but I feel like it's too big of an ask at least at this point. And while I get there's a ton of stage setting right now I feel like a lot of the characterization from the Claremont/lobdell days is falling by the wayside in service of a grand narrative. I'm on board but I think it will turn off a lot of casuals like some folks earlier in the thread.
You only get a little bit of that characterization, and what you get in Scott & Erik is amazing so far, but yes I do hope this ends up feeling more like Fantastic Four than Avengers in the long run.
Manmademan I've been following this thread since the start of the run and I've just got to ask:
How the fuck do you know and retain all this inane comic book stuff?
How the fuck do you know and retain all this inane comic book stuff?
What are the best/key X-Men runs post-Morrison, with the exception of Whedon's Astonishing (which I've already read)? This isn't to catch up for Hickman since I'm already current on HoX/PoX. I've just never read read much of X-Menl after 2005 for whatever reason. Looking for stuff that is either pretty good or important for the key events happening.
And you don't need to recommend Uncanny X-Force- I already own it and will certainly read it in the near future. I've also got an MU subscription so I'm not worried about cost either.
And you don't need to recommend Uncanny X-Force- I already own it and will certainly read it in the near future. I've also got an MU subscription so I'm not worried about cost either.
X-Factor 05 was really good.
Judd Winnick's original run on Exiles. Though that took place at the same time as Morrison's X-Men run I think.
I've also really enjoyed New X-Men 04-08.
Read PoX 2, enjoyed it, I like the reframe of mutant biological evolution vs humans to squarely include ai/machine evolution as an alternate or inevitable branch of human mutation. It's certainly a more modern take than just biology.
I did a reread ahead of this issue, popped into my head wondering if the implication of Moira XI is that she dies young thus preventing reincarnation. She already. Got the long happy life in Moira 1, so unless Destiny is bullshitting the implication seems to be Moira XI dies young. Unless maybe all the cosmic stuff means Moira XI is reborn as some immortal starchild with 1000 years of knowledge or something.
I did a reread ahead of this issue, popped into my head wondering if the implication of Moira XI is that she dies young thus preventing reincarnation. She already. Got the long happy life in Moira 1, so unless Destiny is bullshitting the implication seems to be Moira XI dies young. Unless maybe all the cosmic stuff means Moira XI is reborn as some immortal starchild with 1000 years of knowledge or something.
Mike Carey's X-men Legacy is pretty good and it was also name checked by Hickman before his run started.
While the other Color books are probably best ignored, X-Men Red was pretty good, IMO.
Some great recommendations already. I would also check out Wolverine And The X-Men by Jason Aaron/Chris Bachalo.
OP
OP
I see you too are a man of taste.
May I also recommend Astonishing Spider-Man and Wolverine?
so on point
but that's the hickman way
reading issue to issue it's like:
uhhhh
what
wtf
wtf
WOAAAAAAAAAAAAAAH SHIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIT THAT WAS FUCKING GREAT
what
Jason Aaron's X-Men was probably my favorite run of the last ten years. I need to get around to his solo Wolverine run.
I was reading an article earlier tonight suggesting that Magneto, Wolverine and Xorn in the Year 100 timeline might be second generation chimeras, who were grown using samples of two mutants with similar powers. The main argument that they made in favor of this theory was that Wolverine's speech patterns and word choices were more in line with Sabretooth than with Logan.
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Yeah. Although it's also a canon Wolvie colour scheme, he's wearing the Sabretooth colours, too.
There's also a panel that shows his hands, and it doesn't look like he has the little metal knuckle caps for his blades. I'm not sure if that's how his costume has been recently, though.
Reading it again, Apocalypse also talks about him weirdly - "You'll have to forgive him. War has a way of limiting perspective. It's a shortcoming of that seed, but the benefits... well, what do we have that is not a product of its spoils?"
"That seed" again makes me think Apocalypse is referring to the material used to make Future Wolvie.
He also refers to all the mutants present as "children". Yes, they're younger than Apocalypse, but it all adds up.
#teamclonewolvie
Probably because if Rogers or Stark were consistent writers would never be able to use sentinels anymore
Though Stark would have made Iron Man Sentients to fight Kaiju
I can see Black Panther not really caring about other countries particularly Priest Black Panther though it's weird Wakanda doesn't seem to have any real mutant population and I always don't get why
Vibranium mutants don't count
Which is...kind of the point. The Sentinel program is a completely bizarre initiative from the US government that makes no sense at all. Sentinels cause more destruction than mutants do. By a LOT. But for some reason "hey, let's keep building skyscraper sized killer robots" never seems to be questioned by anyone.
edit: they are also inexplicably missing in any situation where it WOULD make sense to use them. North America just got overrun by Frost Giants during War of Realms! Where's those sentinels? uh....
Red Skull forced him to make giant Adamantium sentinels with pym particle projectors during AXIS without his knowledge. These sentinels were immediately used on the Avengers and nearly killed them all. It's just as insane as it sounds and yet- no call from Tony to end that sentinel program.
this doesn't line up with current black panther at all. The current Avengers team is funded by him as are the Agents of Wakanda, and prior to that he was heavily involved in the creation of the Alpha Flight space station and the Ultimates. BP is absolutely not only concerned about Wakanda. He's the exact opposite and it's been this way for a good while.
There's a few here and there. Gentle is from Wakanda, as are the two members of West Coast Avengers whose names escape me at the moment.
X-Men Red
Si Spurrier's Legacy
All New X-Men Vol 1
Uncanny X-Men Vol 2
I'd probably toss Mr. and Mrs. X in there with those, that series is really good.
the recent (and far too short) X-men Red looked like it was actually going to be touching on this, one of its core team was a mutant from Wakanda, whose mother has effectively bullied him into hating his mutation and psychologically repressing it.
It never really extended to show whether this is in any way the norm for mutants in Wakanda.
IIRC Xmen: Red was always going to be a series with a limited shelf life. There's a lot that it could have expanded on but that was never actually the plan for it.
Astonishing Xmen getting cut off at the knees in the middle of the run with the cast replaced by a wacky Havok having misadventures is similarly REALLY confusing.
I don't get what was supposed to be confusing about PoX 2. Other than the last bit, which seems pretty moved from everything else right now, I thought the other timelines all made sense? Definitely in the early laying-the-groundwork phase now.
edit: lol, clearly did not read to the end of your post until just now. I thought it was odd no one else had recommended it yet...
Remender's X-Force
edit: lol, clearly did not read to the end of your post until just now. I thought it was odd no one else had recommended it yet...
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In hindsight, they should have let X-Men Red and the other colour books continue. Uncanny turned out to be filler and Age of X was a sales failure.
Can't say i disagree. Age of Xman was a terrible, pointless event. What were they thinking?
Literally nothing. Event starts with X-man "killing" just about all relevant X-men, they vanish from the world for months (?).
They were shuffled into an alternate plane of existence that X-man created, which was a mutant paradise (no humans existed in that reality- everyone had x-genes activated though a plot device I can't recall at present) EXCEPT...
no interpersonal relationships of any kind were allowed- parent/child, sibling/sibling/, romantic partner/romantic partner. Why? Because Nate Grey inexplicably doesn't understand them or think they're necessary.
This obviously wasn't sustainable, people broke the rules constantly and had to be mentally "reset" by X-man. The resets were (predictably) imperfect, which caused a lot of drama and when the entire thing fell apart (as you would expect it to) everyone was upset.
Apocalypse was bizarrely cast as a hippie/commune type leader promising everyone "free love" (instead of genocide) but was eventually revealed to have been faking the whole thing because Nate Grey decided he needed a villain for that world, Apocalypse was it, and cast him in that role. Apocalypse is one of a handful of people fully aware of what that world was (nate grey, legion, Glob Herman being others) and was just playing along to get along- and was given a bizarre redemption arc where he claims to have learned to love and isn't a villain anymore.
It's quite possibly the only development out of that arc I expect to have any consequences and it is TERRIBLE. It's not quite down there in the basement with AXIS but it's very, very close. The entire event and the spinoff books it created are a complete waste of time. Don't buy them, don't read them.
Seriously?
thats just....confusing.
Being cut short because of editorial bullshit i get, it sucks but it happens all the time, but being deliberately truncated is just bizarre.
Remember Secret Wars?
it was that, just bad in every single way.
okay maybe one exception.
Right. Red was intended from the start to be a short series. Maybe we'll see that lineup again, though it seems doubtful.
Astonishing though- I've never seen anything like that. A team is established, professor X is brought back (but "younger" and more ruthless) after being absent for about 6 years since being killed in AvX, the team defeats shadow king and proteus in some fairly interesting conflicts- as X-books go it was fairly compelling stuff.
It then ends abruptly as "X" walks off into the world, and the fate of that team is simply unaddressed as it is completely replaced the following issue with an arc about Havok having trouble being taken seriously after parading around the world as a villain since Axis, putting together a team that doesn't respect him, and getting into a confusing conflict with Reavers and the US government. The book is then cancelled. The Havok portion of that book is a mess from start to finish.
SOMETHING happened from an editorial standpoint to screw that book up, but I doubt we'll ever get an explanation as to what it was. Most confusingly, with the exception of Astonishing Annual Marvel simply pretends that "X" never reappeared at all. No one on the Astonishing team bothers to mention Xavier is alive, well, and walking around in the world in a hijacked body.
The Peter David X factor run featuring Maddrox is really good as well but not sure if it's post Morrison.
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Yes. It ran concurrently with Whedon's Astonishing X-men.
Okay, so it's a bad take on the House of M type story situation. Or some MARVEL REBORN shit.
But fuck you all, that's great.
I know it'ss probably written terribly, but Apocalypse faking his hippie rebellion in paradise helping turn him is amazing, I don't give a fuck, fuck you all, I will defend that idea to my core.
probably the best analogy. House of M, but terrible is as close as one could explain it.
it really, really isn't
There's no probably here
Genesis is apocalypse's child in this reality, and through the miracle of children En Sabah Nur discovers what love is. The X-men accept this explanation and forgive him for all the genocide of the past several thousand years. You want to defend THAT idea? Who are you, Bill Jemas?
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You know what, maybe i'm being too harsh on Apocalypse (and the X-tracts!). The final issue of that has a completely OFF THE WALL fight scene involving Apocalypse, and despite it's weirdness it's a good one for him.
The book opens with a suspiciously attractive ol' blue skin (who goes by Murshid, or Murshid En Sabah Nur here) walking in on his "light riders" to deliver them a new mission:
Murshid is shocked- SHOCKED to find they have been "communing" using the hallucination-vapor powers of Unveil, and suspects they've been getting high without him- or even WORSE...masturbating
Unfortunately, nothing so fun as that. The scooby gang has discovered Apocalypse has been lying to them about the nature of the world, and more importantly allowed Genesis to die for discovering that. Eye-Boy is understandably pissed, but takes his anger a bit too far:
Apocalypse might be pretty, but he doesn't take any shit from D-list mutants. Eye boy KNOWS he fucked up as soon as he threw that punch, and gets smack-talked before getting smacked DOWN by...
The facade is dropped, playtime is over, Genocide is back on the menu. Eye boy escapes a merciless beating (for the moment) due to the timely intervention of colossus- though Pete has little chance of doing more than slowing apocalypse down.
Colossus is himself saved, by Dazzler blasting off the arm of En Sabah Nur completely. But unfortunately for her, when apocalypse wants you to catch THESE HANDS he has arms to spare
A brief break to monologue about how awesome he is is broken up when the vaporous mutant Unveil tries to go for the chokehold. But these hands?
ARE NOW FANS. Apocalypse clowns on his former horsemen by shifting his vaccuum arm into reverse like a bad warner brothers cartoon, spraying unveil all over the room.
Apoc turns to trash talk Beatnik Dazzler, before catching a laser blast to the gut. Or has he?
Dazzler gets punked by an illusion, before getting sucker punched by an Apocalypse who hasn't yet broken a sweat. Murshid is quickly but momentarily stunned, as he's blindsided by a hail of bullets
Not that he's hurt, only that someone is dumb enough to think shooting him with bullets would actually work. Eye Boy is trash talked yet again as Apocalypse declares that if he were actually a threat he would tear his arms off before headbutting him into unconciousness.
Allowing a COMPLETELY DELUSIONAL Colossus to believe he is capable of restraining Apocalypse despite only having one arm, a supiciously complacent and unconcerned En Sabah Nur smiles away as a blatantly telegraphed attempt to phase inside him fails by Kitty Pryde- who remembers at the worst possible time that Apocalypse has complete control of all his molecules. You would think transforming into a Hoover and growing an arm back seconds prior would have reminded her, but alas.
With Kitty down, Piotr steps up to bat yet again:
Only for apocalypse to dish out a heathly dose of PAIN. Emotional pain, as he delivers a blistering volley of smack talk revealing that in the prior world, Kitty punked him by leaving him at the Altar on their wedding day, because she never loved him. Pete didn't sign up for this. He's out of the fight. Apocalypse appears to be completely victorious! But with Apocalypse momentarily distracted by reality collapsing around them, Kitty takes advantage and defeats him with the power of Judaism, his one true weakness
Given the choice to finish off their greatest villain for good, or let him monologue some more, the Light Riders feel this is a great time for speeches.
Murshid takes advantage, telling them the miracle of childbirth has shown him the light in this reality.
Stunned by the emotional appeal as well as the fact that Apocalypse is hot again
The X-men put aside their differences with a genocidal maniac and let him join the team. But not without one last try at a catch phrase.
The book opens with a suspiciously attractive ol' blue skin (who goes by Murshid, or Murshid En Sabah Nur here) walking in on his "light riders" to deliver them a new mission:
Murshid is shocked- SHOCKED to find they have been "communing" using the hallucination-vapor powers of Unveil, and suspects they've been getting high without him- or even WORSE...masturbating
Unfortunately, nothing so fun as that. The scooby gang has discovered Apocalypse has been lying to them about the nature of the world, and more importantly allowed Genesis to die for discovering that. Eye-Boy is understandably pissed, but takes his anger a bit too far:
Apocalypse might be pretty, but he doesn't take any shit from D-list mutants. Eye boy KNOWS he fucked up as soon as he threw that punch, and gets smack-talked before getting smacked DOWN by...
The facade is dropped, playtime is over, Genocide is back on the menu. Eye boy escapes a merciless beating (for the moment) due to the timely intervention of colossus- though Pete has little chance of doing more than slowing apocalypse down.
Colossus is himself saved, by Dazzler blasting off the arm of En Sabah Nur completely. But unfortunately for her, when apocalypse wants you to catch THESE HANDS he has arms to spare
A brief break to monologue about how awesome he is is broken up when the vaporous mutant Unveil tries to go for the chokehold. But these hands?
ARE NOW FANS. Apocalypse clowns on his former horsemen by shifting his vaccuum arm into reverse like a bad warner brothers cartoon, spraying unveil all over the room.
Apoc turns to trash talk Beatnik Dazzler, before catching a laser blast to the gut. Or has he?
Dazzler gets punked by an illusion, before getting sucker punched by an Apocalypse who hasn't yet broken a sweat. Murshid is quickly but momentarily stunned, as he's blindsided by a hail of bullets
Not that he's hurt, only that someone is dumb enough to think shooting him with bullets would actually work. Eye Boy is trash talked yet again as Apocalypse declares that if he were actually a threat he would tear his arms off before headbutting him into unconciousness.
Allowing a COMPLETELY DELUSIONAL Colossus to believe he is capable of restraining Apocalypse despite only having one arm, a supiciously complacent and unconcerned En Sabah Nur smiles away as a blatantly telegraphed attempt to phase inside him fails by Kitty Pryde- who remembers at the worst possible time that Apocalypse has complete control of all his molecules. You would think transforming into a Hoover and growing an arm back seconds prior would have reminded her, but alas.
With Kitty down, Piotr steps up to bat yet again:
Only for apocalypse to dish out a heathly dose of PAIN. Emotional pain, as he delivers a blistering volley of smack talk revealing that in the prior world, Kitty punked him by leaving him at the Altar on their wedding day, because she never loved him. Pete didn't sign up for this. He's out of the fight. Apocalypse appears to be completely victorious! But with Apocalypse momentarily distracted by reality collapsing around them, Kitty takes advantage and defeats him with the power of Judaism, his one true weakness
Given the choice to finish off their greatest villain for good, or let him monologue some more, the Light Riders feel this is a great time for speeches.
Murshid takes advantage, telling them the miracle of childbirth has shown him the light in this reality.
Stunned by the emotional appeal as well as the fact that Apocalypse is hot again
The X-men put aside their differences with a genocidal maniac and let him join the team. But not without one last try at a catch phrase.
When reading Apocalypse mention a "seed" it made me think of the Celestial seeds. In the Dark Angel Saga Archangel wanting to use the "Death seed" for Psylocke, and in turn X-FORCE had to use a "Life Seed" to end his transformation into fully becoming the new Apocalypse. I'm now wondering if a different type of Celestial Seed is required for each Horseman of Apocalypse.
The final 1/4 of POX 2 was kind of gibberish to me. Everything from Nimbus to the explanation of the societies, just read like nonsense.
Do we know what species the librarian in year 1000 is? I assume he's just some kind of extra terrestrial that is archiving humans/mutants cuz the war eventually lead to the extinction of everybody, but I dunno that whole portion of the book is confusing to me
Do we know what species the librarian in year 1000 is? I assume he's just some kind of extra terrestrial that is archiving humans/mutants cuz the war eventually lead to the extinction of everybody, but I dunno that whole portion of the book is confusing to me
I'd also recommend Spurrier's X-Force. While it's messier and less successful than his Legacy run was, it has a great cast and delves into some fascinating concepts.
Si Spurrier's actually someone I feel would mesh really well into the new Hickman status quo. Here's to hoping he gets a wave 2 book.
I just want you to know you're the reason I haven't picked up a X-men book in awhile. It all sounds bad
That's on you, I don't work for marvel.
To be fair though the X-men books have not been good for some time- a few exceptions like Xmen: Red and Mr. And Mrs. X aside.
The hickman stuff is a much needed return to form, but it remains to be seen what Marvel does with it.