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Jonathan Hickman's X-Men |OT| Adaptation or Dominance(Open Spoilers, Gambit is the Witness)

How should we tag spoilers?

  • Day of release spoilers are fine

    Votes: 109 51.7%
  • Give each issue a one week spoiler tag

    Votes: 65 30.8%
  • sPoiLEr tAGs fOR eVerYThinG

    Votes: 14 6.6%
  • No spoiler tags at all-even for speculation

    Votes: 23 10.9%

  • Total voters
    211
  • Poll closed .

Estro

Member
Jul 17, 2019
113
That was another great issue. The series had managed to convince me that HoX's present was in the main Marvel continuity so I didn't event think about this being a possibility. Obviously, it's going to get reversed or rebooted through Moira or Krakoa podas, but it was really intense.
 

Chiaroscuro

Member
Oct 25, 2017
1,276
It's weird that this is the big, time-line defining moment, and they sent one ship and like seven people. And not even really the best people for the job.
Scott said he assembled a team of volunteers. It was a suicide mission from the start, they knew the odds. Those people volunteered for that, although I won’t think more would do. Maybe in the great Xavier’s plan those are the expandables best suited for the job. There are more battles coming.
 

Billfisto

Member
Oct 30, 2017
3,418
Canada
Scott said he assembled a team of volunteers. It was a suicide mission from the start, they knew the odds. Those people volunteered for that, although I won’t think more would do. Maybe in the great Xavier’s plan those are the expandables best suited for the job. There are more battles coming.
Yeah, it kinda makes sense from that perspective.

But from Xavier and Moira's perspective, it makes absolutely no sense. Moira has spent the last ten lifetimes trying to make things work, and she figures this may be her last shot. She spent a long portion of her last life entombed in a horrible future only to immediately voluntarily get gutted in order to bring information into what we're presuming is this life. That information was important enough to sacrifice everyone she knew in the Moira 9 timeline to obtain, and then.. they wait around until the last minute and then ask around and see if anyone wants to act on it?

Even if Moira's not in the picture anymore, Xavier still read her mind and would know all that, and he's had ten years to prepare for this. He and Moira set up an elaborate program to check for the signs of Nimrod being built, but they never laid the groundwork for staging a proper assault?

The only way it logically works is if:
  1. The "volunteers" were expendable because they were clones, or can be cloned.
  2. Moira doesn't intend for this to be the "final" timeline, so losses are acceptable as everything will be wiped from everywhere except her own memory, anyway.
  3. Helmet Xavier is working against Moira for some reason.
  4. Moira's plan requires sacrifice (ie, martyrs or founders or as a catalyst for more desperate action)
  5. X10 is not Moira 10.
 

Blader

Member
Oct 27, 2017
10,190
Even though I think all of these characters have died at some point before already, if not multiple times, it was all pulled off really well. Jean's death was just fucked.

Speaking of -- is there a reason why Jean is so damn weak here? Or is this another instance of this is something that's intentionally off, no one knows why, so just wait and see?
 

deimosmasque

Member
Apr 22, 2018
1,505
Tampa, Fl
exactly which is why so many died in the 616 Terrigan mists. Plus the mutant population post Hope and AvX should be in the 1000's at least.

This reality having 198 mutants to implies a lot of post Decimation didn't occur here like it did in the 616. Also, the changes in powers, personalities, and certain people being alive who were dead just prior to this storyline.

With that said all the best X-Men storylines involve the team dying, multiple realities, and dark futures. I'm glad Hickman recognized that and leaned into the team strengths. Its been a long time since I felt anything during a X-men comic.
The mutant population after Hope was in the millions.

However I did forget the Terrigean Mists but interestingly enough so did this comic. Or at least it wasn't mentioned as one of the great mutant genocides.
 

emir

Member
Oct 25, 2017
1,433
Shiat. How will Charles clone/resurrect Wolverine with adamantium? I'm really damn curious.
 
Last edited:
Oct 26, 2017
522
Even though I think all of these characters have died at some point before already, if not multiple times, it was all pulled off really well. Jean's death was just fucked.

Speaking of -- is there a reason why Jean is so damn weak here? Or is this another instance of this is something that's intentionally off, no one knows why, so just wait and see?
Perhaps her dressing as Marvel Girl is more than just a costume change.
 

Nobunny

Avenger
Oct 25, 2017
723
It would be pretty interesting if this assault really only paved the way for the "nicer" Nimrod and future alien-ish Xavier, and ultimately their technological ascension is the final crazy piece needed to reboot the timeline in a way that fully achieve's Xavier/Moria's goal.
 

Mudcrab

Avenger
Oct 26, 2017
1,844
So I guess the question is were those pod people X men that went to space or are the pod people replacing actual dead X-men next?
 

Billfisto

Member
Oct 30, 2017
3,418
Canada
So I guess the question is were those pod people X men that went to space or are the pod people replacing actual dead X-men next?
My bet is that they were already pod people, or it wasn't 616. Between Jean's weird regression back to Marvel Girl, Archangel going out like a punk, and Monet Penancing Out, this isn't consistent with mainline 616. Hickman knows his stuff, so he wouldn't be doing this accidentally or without explanation.

I think Mystique was either the "real" Mystique or a pod person who's caught on that something is amiss. Seems weird that she'd volunteer for the mission unless she had some other reason to be up there.
 
OP
OP
Dalek

Dalek

Member
Oct 25, 2017
12,567
My bet is that they were already pod people, or it wasn't 616. Between Jean's weird regression back to Marvel Girl, Archangel going out like a punk, and Monet Penancing Out, this isn't consistent with mainline 616. Hickman knows his stuff, so he wouldn't be doing this accidentally or without explanation.

I think Mystique was either the "real" Mystique or a pod person who's caught on that something is amiss. Seems weird that she'd volunteer for the mission unless she had some other reason to be up there.
The only thing that makes this odd is of course, Logan’s Adamantium claws and skeleton. He cut the 4th link from the outside so he had to have had that metal. Whatever process is reporting/resurrecting then must take that into account somehow. Maybe it’s more complex than simply cloning.
 

Billfisto

Member
Oct 30, 2017
3,418
Canada
The only thing that makes this odd is of course, Logan’s Adamantium claws and skeleton. He cut the 4th link from the outside so he had to have had that metal. Whatever process is reporting/resurrecting then must take that into account somehow. Maybe it’s more complex than simply cloning.
Yeah. It could be that only some of the crew were clones and that was the real Wolverine, but I keep going back to that weird shot of him playing with the kids while creepy Xavier looms nearby.

Of course, I'm already 0/1 on Identifying Counterfeit Wolverines, so who am I to talk? :)
 

CoolestSpot

Avenger
Oct 25, 2017
14,933
The only thing that makes this odd is of course, Logan’s Adamantium claws and skeleton. He cut the 4th link from the outside so he had to have had that metal. Whatever process is reporting/resurrecting then must take that into account somehow. Maybe it’s more complex than simply cloning.
Moriah maybe is using her power to keep resetting others as well? And Xavier blocks their memory out until a specific point in the timeline? I don't know.
 

Double 0

Member
Nov 5, 2017
1,905
So I guess the question is were those pod people X men that went to space or are the pod people replacing actual dead X-men next?
I'm thinking yeah, it's the issue one pod people...

But it does leave the question of if krakoa can make a perfect replica of adamantium wolverine. Which.... I mean, if it is possible, why clone anyone else. Slice n dice all mutant haters.
 

SamAlbro

Member
Oct 25, 2017
3,570
On the topic of Clone X-men, could Krakoa be making new bodies, but Xavier "rescuing" their minds at the point of death and transferring them to new bodies?


Fair point.

Edit - Technically neither was Genosha though. It was to tools of man, but Cassandra Nova was the one who pulled the trigger.

Those sentinels were technically activated by Donald Trask III, even if it was under Nova's orders.
 

Harpoon

Member
Oct 27, 2017
2,683
On the topic of Clone X-men, could Krakoa be making new bodies, but Xavier "rescuing" their minds at the point of death and transferring them to new bodies?
I have a strong suspicion this is the case with the cover for next PoX issue. I believe a solicit for one of the next issues also mentioned
“Cerebro does what it was built to do.” What if it’s been modified to look not just for mutants on earth, but also for their very souls in the astral plane or something? Could tie into why Xavier always keeps it on too.
 
Oct 27, 2017
252
On the topic of Clone X-men, could Krakoa be making new bodies, but Xavier "rescuing" their minds at the point of death and transferring them to new bodies?
The weird idea I've had kicking around in my head is that we could to see a retcon of Giant Size #1: the X-men never left Krakoa. Krakoa didn't send Scott back to Xavier to bring more mutants, but instead sent an exact copy and kept the original to feed on. And when the new team came, Krakoa captured them and sent copies out with false memories. The X-men we've known all these years have been Krakoan copies (even Wolverine, because Krakoa can make adamantium, because why the heck not).

And Charles knew this all along, because this was part of the plan. Moira, too. Including the whole Deadly Genesis arc.

By the end of HoxPox, we'll get the original mutants back, with their copy's memories returned to them by Xavier somehow.
 

THErest

Member
Oct 25, 2017
2,657
The weird idea I've had kicking around in my head is that we could to see a retcon of Giant Size #1: the X-men never left Krakoa. Krakoa didn't send Scott back to Xavier to bring more mutants, but instead sent an exact copy and kept the original to feed on. And when the new team came, Krakoa captured them and sent copies out with false memories. The X-men we've known all these years have been Krakoan copies (even Wolverine, because Krakoa can make adamantium, because why the heck not).

And Charles knew this all along, because this was part of the plan. Moira, too. Including the whole Deadly Genesis arc.

By the end of HoxPox, we'll get the original mutants back, with their copy's memories returned to them by Xavier somehow.
That's some Ben Reilly shit right there.
 

Tabs2002

Member
Feb 1, 2018
707
Even though I think all of these characters have died at some point before already, if not multiple times, it was all pulled off really well. Jean's death was just fucked.

Speaking of -- is there a reason why Jean is so damn weak here? Or is this another instance of this is something that's intentionally off, no one knows why, so just wait and see?
The regression is very disappointing. She acted like a newbie who just got her powers. I'm hoping there's an instory reason for it.
 

OmniGamer

Member
Oct 27, 2017
526
The regression is very disappointing. She acted like a newbie who just got her powers. I'm hoping there's an instory reason for it.

Agreed

My biggest gripe with this issue regarding Jean is not the feats(or lack thereof) but her entire disposition...it's tentative, while everyone else is showing steely resolve. She has to be prodded to be on mission by Cyclops, Wolverine and most off-putting of all, M(not getting into needing her telepathic support to begin with)

This is some other Jean. This is NOT the same Jean who, on the shuttle mission, assessed the situation, determined a course of action, absorbed Corbeau's flight knowledge, knocked out Scott, said her tearful goodbyes, and set her self to task, enduring way more pain than HOX Jean did from that explosion...enduring so much that even after her body is destroyed by radiation, she shunts death itself aside, carrying on, before the Phoenix intervenes.

It's just so glaring (to me) because she is furthest removed from her characterization than the others
 

Tribal24

The Fallen
Oct 25, 2017
832
The weird idea I've had kicking around in my head is that we could to see a retcon of Giant Size #1: the X-men never left Krakoa. Krakoa didn't send Scott back to Xavier to bring more mutants, but instead sent an exact copy and kept the original to feed on. And when the new team came, Krakoa captured them and sent copies out with false memories. The X-men we've known all these years have been Krakoan copies (even Wolverine, because Krakoa can make adamantium, because why the heck not).

And Charles knew this all along, because this was part of the plan. Moira, too. Including the whole Deadly Genesis arc.

By the end of HoxPox, we'll get the original mutants back, with their copy's memories returned to them by Xavier somehow.
i love this idea
Agreed

My biggest gripe with this issue regarding Jean is not the feats(or lack thereof) but her entire disposition...it's tentative, while everyone else is showing steely resolve. She has to be prodded to be on mission by Cyclops, Wolverine and most off-putting of all, M(not getting into needing her telepathic support to begin with)

This is some other Jean. This is NOT the same Jean who, on the shuttle mission, assessed the situation, determined a course of action, absorbed Corbeau's flight knowledge, knocked out Scott, said her tearful goodbyes, and set her self to task, enduring way more pain than HOX Jean did from that explosion...enduring so much that even after her body is destroyed by radiation, she shunts death itself aside, carrying on, before the Phoenix intervenes.

It's just so glaring (to me) because she is furthest removed from her characterization than the others
good point definitely not the real jean
 

IrishNinja

Member
Oct 27, 2017
3,374
Vice City

SamAlbro

Member
Oct 25, 2017
3,570
Is Scarlett Witch a human? I thought she was a mutant?



Also why are they calling her a Pretender? Lol what the hell is that?
About the time they were bringing the Maximofs into the movies, they reconnected their origin to being the true children of Django and Marya Maximoff, kidnaed and experimented on by the High Evolutionary, and returned under the false story that they were mutants and children of Magneto.

Basically, wiping away the mutant and Magneto connections to make them more MCU friendly.
 

Jinfash

Member
Oct 27, 2017
612
About the time they were bringing the Maximofs into the movies, they reconnected their origin to being the true children of Django and Marya Maximoff, kidnaed and experimented on by the High Evolutionary, and returned under the false story that they were mutants and children of Magneto.

Basically, wiping away the mutant and Magneto connections to make them more MCU friendly.
Ahhh. That's kinda sad and shortsighted. How did people receive it?
 
Oct 31, 2017
3,703
Yeah that is bizarre. Can they retcon her and Pietro back to be mutants? I actually hope for the same in the MCU, i.e. retcon them to be mutants all along.
 

Manmademan

Member
Aug 6, 2018
5,126
About the time they were bringing the Maximofs into the movies, they reconnected their origin to being the true children of Django and Marya Maximoff, kidnaed and experimented on by the High Evolutionary, and returned under the false story that they were mutants and children of Magneto.

Basically, wiping away the mutant and Magneto connections to make them more MCU friendly.
To be completely fair though, Wanda and Pietro being Magneto's children was itself a retcon that wasn't thought up until later.

Originally while members of the Brotherhood of Evil Mutants (that NAME lol) they weren't his kids.