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Jonathan Hickman's X-Men |OT| Adaptation or Dominance(Open Spoilers, Gambit is the Witness)

How should we tag spoilers?

  • Day of release spoilers are fine

    Votes: 109 51.7%
  • Give each issue a one week spoiler tag

    Votes: 65 30.8%
  • sPoiLEr tAGs fOR eVerYThinG

    Votes: 14 6.6%
  • No spoiler tags at all-even for speculation

    Votes: 23 10.9%

  • Total voters
    211
  • Poll closed .

Manmademan

Member
Aug 6, 2018
5,596
You forget that she doesn't have unlimited re-ups.
I didn't forget this at all. Moira is implied to not have unlimited re-ups only because if someone were to kill her before she reaches 13 years old and her power manifests, the cycle stops.

Mystique isn't capable of killing Moira before she turns 13. The current Moira X is already past that point, and Mystique can't transfer any knowledge to a reincarnated life as Moira can.

edit: hell, do the X-men even know Moira is alive? She's still assumed to be dead via the Golem business, isn't she?
 

Manmademan

Member
Aug 6, 2018
5,596
Dominions exist outside of space time, I wonder what Moira dying looks like to them.
I was literally turning this one over in my mind as you said this. She...probably doesn't really look like much of anything, if they're truly outside of spacetime. Marvel time is stated outright to be completely unstable in both past and future and is in a constant state of change. Moira is just one more thing causing instability out of thousands, I suppose.

edit: also weird but unaddressed here is that both Bishop and Cable are known to be "monitoring" spacetime and preventing disasters in one way, shape, or form before they happen. Neither one is aware of the inevitable outcome of Moira's "lives" though.
 

Billfisto

Member
Oct 30, 2017
3,614
Canada
I didn't forget this at all. Moira is implied to not have unlimited re-ups only because if someone were to kill her before she reaches 13 years old and her power manifests, the cycle stops.

Mystique isn't capable of killing Moira before she turns 13. The current Moira X is already past that point, and Mystique can't transfer any knowledge to a reincarnated life as Moira can.
I think Woozies means that Destiny specified that Moira has a hard-cap of regenerations, getting 10, maybe 11 in total. It's not specified if this is a limitation of the power itself, though, or if Destiny foresaw her getting that many due to the circumstances of the last lives leading to her losing her powers or not gaining them or whatever.

Of course, it now seems clear that Moira 10 is 616, so as far as anyone is concerned Moira is a dead human. I don't think anyone apart from Xavier and Mags knows she has reset-the-clock powers, so Mystique would be perfectly fine with killing her.
 

Manmademan

Member
Aug 6, 2018
5,596
I think Woozies means that Destiny specified that Moira has a hard-cap of regenerations, getting 10, maybe 11 in total. It's not specified if this is a limitation of the power itself, though, or if Destiny foresaw her getting that many due to the circumstances of the last lives leading to her losing her powers or not gaining them or whatever.

Of course, it now seems clear that Moira 10 is 616, so as far as anyone is concerned Moira is a dead human. I don't think anyone apart from Xavier and Mags knows she has reset-the-clock powers, so Mystique would be perfectly fine with killing her.
I know what Woozies meant. But Destiny when explaining that Moira had a limit explained WHY she had a limit- because her cycle stops if she dies before she hits 13.

Destiny says Moira will have ten, *maybe* 11 lives, depending on a decision Moira makes, implying that the possibility of the 11th life isn't a hard cap on her mutation, it's up to something that moira herself will or will not do going forward.

edit: TheBlackMarvel noted (as I did) that the Dominions appear to exist outside of spacetime, if what the librarian says about the Phalanx is accurate. Killing moira before the Earth was assimilated prevented the Phalanx from absorbing the knowledge of the librarian and thus time timeline was reset and it remains ignorant, but if the Phalanx DID become aware of her then it likely wouldn't tolerate something like her having any power over them and obliterate her in the past.

I think the thing that determines whether Moira gets an 11th life or not is whether the Phalanx/Dominion becomes aware of her in the Moira X timeline. If it does, it's game over.
 
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Kalentan

Member
Oct 25, 2017
12,618
So if Mutants are always destined to lose... Then has the status quo really changed? It seems like this will be another repeat of Genosha.

Just way more cultish and with orgies.
 

Billfisto

Member
Oct 30, 2017
3,614
Canada
I know what Woozies meant. But Destiny when explaining that Moira had a limit explained WHY she had a limit- because her cycle stops if she dies before she hits 13.

Destiny says Moira will have ten, *maybe* 11 lives, depending on a decision Moira makes, implying that the possibility of the 11th life isn't a hard cap on her mutation, it's up to something that moira herself will or will not do going forward.
Hrm, yeah, you're right. Looking back, she does specifically mention the "killed before powers manifest" thing after Moira asks how it's possible that she'd only regenerate that many times.

Which is weird, though, because she's already made it past 13 in Life 10, so as things stand she should be getting Life 11.

Maybe the choice is something related to losing her powers later on in Life 10.
 

Manmademan

Member
Aug 6, 2018
5,596
Hrm, yeah, you're right. Looking back, she does specifically mention the "killed before powers manifest" thing after Moira asks how it's possible that she'd only regenerate that many times.

Which is weird, though, because she's already made it past 13 in Life 10, so as things stand she should be getting Life 11.

Maybe the choice is something related to losing her powers later on in Life 10.
See my above edit. The librarian says flat out that if Moira dies before the Phalanx is able to absorb his knowledge, then it remains ignorant. If he sends them off world and they survive long enough for the Phalanx to take that knowledge back to the dominion, then the dominion-as it exists outside of space and time- would likely not tolerate Moira having any power over it and eliminate her.

A dominion if we recall is basically a god, fearing only the Phoenix and Galactus and has no limitations to what it can do.

The life of Moira 11 is dependent on the phalanx never finding out she exists.
 

mjc

The Fallen
Oct 25, 2017
3,541
So we could safely assume now that Charles is not really himself, at least as a result of Moira screwing with his psyche?
 

Nesotenso

Member
Oct 26, 2017
660
Why we talking about life 11 if she makes it past the age of 13? If I understood it right, if she makes it past 13 the cycle never gets broken but there is a hard limit on the number of lives she has , 10 maybe 11.
 

TaleSpun

Member
Oct 25, 2017
5,048
Seems like a self-fulling prophecy.
Part of the point, I think. It’s not that Moira knows for certain they’ll lose, it’s that every life and experience up to this point has supported the notion they won’t. She’s convinced the’ll lose and it colors every action she takes, and in that way it could absolutely be a self-fulfilling prophecy. Destiny could contradict that though. She might even see a brighter future for them, but Moira won’t even risk it.

Her fear and certainty could hold them back as much as her ambition pushes them forward.
 

Manmademan

Member
Aug 6, 2018
5,596
So we could safely assume now that Charles is not really himself, at least as a result of Moira screwing with his psyche?
No, Charles is Charles.

The problem is that charles naturally leans towards believing in the inherent goodness of people. Moira revealing what she did to him- that his dream will not work, humanity is not inherently good but inevitably their greatest threat no matter what he tries- is breaking him mentally.

It's "himself" but faced with a Truth that he has a hard time coping with.
 

deimosmasque

Member
Apr 22, 2018
1,651
Tampa, Fl
Reminder. Destiny predicted that Moria would have 10, maybe 11 lives.

Destiny did this through r her own mutant power to read the future of people. And also stated it depended on the decisions she made, not a hard limit on he power.

I'm honestly pretty sure that the cycle will end when she threatens to kill herself because Charles and Magneto aren't you doing what she wants them to do. With leads to Charles injecting her with the Cure.
 

Chasing

The Fallen
Oct 26, 2017
3,194
Hickman knew exactly what people were thinking was up with Charles and it feels like the whole backend of the issue was made to to remind us that, yes dammit, this is the same Charles you know.

And man do those journal entries dig in deep. Something I sorta started to suspect along the HOXPOX journey, Proteus and Legion really are the result of eugenics maaaaan.
 
OP
OP
Dalek

Dalek

Member
Oct 25, 2017
13,105
Mystique is the fly in the ointment here. Moira refuses to allow Destiny to be revived and Mystique insists on it. That’s going to cause a major problem but it seems like Charles and Eric have a plan. They could revive Destiny’s husk but put a backup of someone else’s mind (Xavier) in there to trick everyone.
 

Gambit

Member
Oct 27, 2017
561
Moira shouldn't casually go out dining when she's not at the No-Space, she should be put in stasis as to not accidentally get killed.
 

Manmademan

Member
Aug 6, 2018
5,596
so a Dominion, with the knowledge of the reincarnations, can kill Moira X so that it ends the cycle for once and all?
A Dominion is flat out stated to be a godlike entity with no limitations as we understand them. It also exists outside of normal space-time. So yes, If it became aware of her it could eliminate her ability to reincarnate somehow, likely intervening before she turns 13.

This is what the Librarian's conversation was about. They needed to convince him to LET moira die before the Phalanx found out about her, otherwise the Dominion would not permit something like her to exist.

edit: hell, you wouldn't even need a Dominion for this because Eva Bell has already done this to Matthew Malloy.

Mystique is the fly in the ointment here. Moira refuses to allow Destiny to be revived and Mystique insists on it. That’s going to cause a major problem but it seems like Charles and Eric have a plan.
You would think the solution to that would be obvious, Charles Xavier being the most powerful telepath known to exist and all.

Alternatively there really is no reason for Mystique to be there on the council or for Charles and Magneto to have to placate her. It's a "problem" but a heavily contrived one.
 
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Silky

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
10,438
Georgia
Mystique is the fly in the ointment here. Moira refuses to allow Destiny to be revived and Mystique insists on it. That’s going to cause a major problem but it seems like Charles and Eric have a plan. They could revive Destiny’s husk but put a backup of someone else’s mind (Xavier) in there to trick everyone.
Raven: GIVE ME MY /WIFE/

If they do plan to eventually revive Destiny, will it be the same elderly one or will it be hot Irene because modern Marvel fears having that kind of exposure
 

Billfisto

Member
Oct 30, 2017
3,614
Canada
It's interesting that mutant resurrection didn't actually come from Moira, but from Xavier himself. It doesn't seem to be part of her plan, just a weird unforseen byproduct of mucking with Xavier's outlook on life.
 

Manmademan

Member
Aug 6, 2018
5,596
It's interesting that mutant resurrection didn't actually come from Moira, but from Xavier himself. It doesn't seem to be part of her plan, just a weird unforseen byproduct of mucking with Xavier's outlook on life.
Well...that's kind of the point. Moira has no idea how to stop the inevitable destruction of Mutantkind by Machines and/or Advanced Humanity.

the idea on how this is going to be accomplished is going to come from Xavier/Magneto/Apocalypse working together and coming up with radical ideas.
 

Seven Force

Member
Nov 30, 2017
7,296
So was entry 17 in Moira's journal basically saying that Legion and Proteus were conceived with the express purpose of furthering the mutant resurrection idea with Proteus being the eventual successful candidate?
 

Manmademan

Member
Aug 6, 2018
5,596
Add to that, technically every telepath has potential for precognitive flashes.

Moria is playing with fire.
yeah, but not outright "reading the future like a book" as Destiny and Blindfold do on the regular.

Think of it from moira's perspective- she has to hope that this effort works out. She's literally out of ideas. If Destiny waltzes in the door and says "oh, yeah- we're all going to die no matter what in 13 years when the Playstation 9 becomes self aware" then Moira's mind will break. She'll kill herself and strangle herself in the womb to end the madness.

You really, REALLY don't want Precogs there.
 

Manmademan

Member
Aug 6, 2018
5,596
So was entry 17 in Moira's journal basically saying that Legion and Proteus were conceived with the express purpose of furthering the mutant resurrection idea with Proteus being the eventual successful candidate?
that's exactly what it is.

edit: I wonder how Moira feels about Cypher's Phalanx-Arm. Or the existence of Warlock in general? Either one of those seems like a risky thing to have around
 

fiendcode

Member
Oct 26, 2017
11,705
I'm starting to think Moira's wrong, her lives aren't actually a reset of reality but distinct alternate realities. Like the posthumans will still ascend in Moira VI's timeline after her death and from that black hole consciousness the technarch might come try to and stop mutants now in 616.

It's also too coincidental that Rasputin (and I guess Omega) would up being taken out by a black hole. Like I can't help but expect to see them popping back up down the line.

Dangling the promise of bringing Destiny back to Mystique, that'll sure end well...and now we have an unofficial mutant law, no precogs on Krakoa
Sad for Blindfold too. I doubt Legion will be happy about that either...

Although this also has me wondering about mutants with limited/infrequent precognition (like Betsy and Kwannon) or those with timestream based abilities (Tempo, Tempus, Rachel, Magik, etc). Like wouldn't they each be an issue for Moira as well or is it more focused on Irene and paranoia stemming from their personal history. More and more it seems like no coincidence that Destiny died on Muir Island.

Tidbit...so Moira the genetic pimp, in addition to finding Mactaggert, arranged for Gabrielle Haller and Xavier to produce Legion?
Yes, that's the implication I got. There's some problematic elements in both pairings though (Xavier being in a position of power/authority over Haller, MacTaggert's domestic abuse and implied rape of Moira). It also makes me wonder about Magneto's offspring (Anya, Polaris) and if Moira had any influence there? Or if she's kept tabs on Apocalypse's descendants (inc. Chamber and Blink)?
 

Manmademan

Member
Aug 6, 2018
5,596
I'm starting to think Moira's wrong, her lives aren't actually a reset of reality but distinct alternate realities.
Marvel established time travel doesn't work like that anymore after Age of Ultron. Messing around with time doesn't create splinter realities like it used to. It just changes the present. I don't think Hickman is going to reverse that status quo.

If Moira was wrong and the Dominion knows, we wouldn't have any lives, let alone 10.
also a good point. If that reality wasn't wiped out, the Dominion would have absorbed that knowledge and eliminated Moira before even getting to Life 7.