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Jonathan Hickman's X-Men |OT| Adaptation or Dominance(Open Spoilers, Gambit is the Witness)

How should we tag spoilers?

  • Day of release spoilers are fine

    Votes: 109 51.7%
  • Give each issue a one week spoiler tag

    Votes: 65 30.8%
  • sPoiLEr tAGs fOR eVerYThinG

    Votes: 14 6.6%
  • No spoiler tags at all-even for speculation

    Votes: 23 10.9%

  • Total voters
    211
  • Poll closed .

deimosmasque

Member
Apr 22, 2018
1,652
Tampa, Fl
yeah, but not outright "reading the future like a book" as Destiny and Blindfold do on the regular.

Think of it from moira's perspective- she has to hope that this effort works out. She's literally out of ideas. If Destiny waltzes in the door and says "oh, yeah- we're all going to die no matter what in 13 years when the Playstation 9 becomes self aware" then Moira's mind will break. She'll kill herself and strangle herself in the womb to end the madness.

You really, REALLY don't want Precogs there.
Fair. Except the precog flashes that telepaths get tend to be indistinct and generalized.

All it takes is for one telepath to suddenly have a precognitive flash that Moira is going to do something that's going to screw over everyone and Moira is done.

It would seem more intelligent to bring Destiny back to life and share all the information with her as well. Moira is trying to help the future of the mutant race now. Destiny has no reason to be against her
 

fiendcode

Member
Oct 26, 2017
11,705
Marvel established time travel doesn't work like that anymore after Age of Ultron. Messing around with time doesn't create splinter realities like it used to. It just changes the present. I don't think Hickman is going to reverse that status quo.
Sure it doesn't now but Moira X was born well before AOU. Therefore everything she experienced in lives I-IX would've been before that as well, it can still work. In fact maybe the change to the multiverse is why Moira has a limit on lives, Irene was vague enough it could be the case.

Hickman setting up the Dominions as essentially being outside time/space as we know it is too much of a red flag imo. That's not done yet and is probably the eventual endgame for his run in several years I bet.
 

Woozies

Member
Nov 1, 2017
14,034
Gonna lay it out cleanly.

Moira's the villain of the whole thing. Cause she can't see a way to win and utterly rejects the belief that there is one.
 

Manmademan

Member
Aug 6, 2018
5,596
Sure it doesn't now but Moira X was born well before AOU. Therefore everything she experienced in lives I-IX would've been before that as well, it can still work. In fact maybe the change to the multiverse is why Moira has a limit on lives, Irene was vague enough it could be the case.

Hickman setting up the Dominions as essentially being outside time/space as we know it is too much of a red flag imo. That's not done yet and is probably the eventual endgame for his run in several years I bet.
It's an editorial thing, not an in-universe thing. Marvel doesn't want to do the alternate universe thing with timelines anymore, and changed this starting with the publication of AoU. This includes retroactively rewriting things that WERE alternate universes into alt-timelines like 2099.

you won't see them anymore.
 

Silky

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
10,438
Georgia
yeah, but not outright "reading the future like a book" as Destiny and Blindfold do on the regular.

Think of it from moira's perspective- she has to hope that this effort works out. She's literally out of ideas. If Destiny waltzes in the door and says "oh, yeah- we're all going to die no matter what in 13 years when the Playstation 9 becomes self aware" then Moira's mind will break. She'll kill herself and strangle herself in the womb to end the madness.

You really, REALLY don't want Precogs there.
Fair. Except the precog flashes that telepaths get tend to be indistinct and generalized.

All it takes is for one telepath to suddenly have a precognitive flash that Moira is going to do something that's going to screw over everyone and Moira is done.

It would seem more intelligent to bring Destiny back to life and share all the information with her as well. Moira is trying to help the future of the mutant race now. Destiny has no reason to be against her
It's mostly propaganda. If the people knew that there was no future they would be back to their old ways.
 

Manmademan

Member
Aug 6, 2018
5,596
Cause I don't believe she's completely given up on it. But she has given up on any option that could be seen as heroic.
The point of this status quo shift is that the concept of "heroes" and "villains" among the mutant population is outmoded. Xavier had to have the "heroic" mindset broken and beaten out of him in order for things to work.

It's a new paradigm going forward. Fighting for Xavier's dream is a dead concept. "Good mutants" and "evil mutants" is a dead concept.
 

Woozies

Member
Nov 1, 2017
14,034
The point of this status quo shift is that the concept of "heroes" and "villains" among the mutant population is outmoded. Xavier had to have the "heroic" mindset broken and beaten out of him in order for things to work.

It's a new paradigm going forward. Fighting for Xavier's dream is a dead concept. "Good mutants" and "evil mutants" is a dead concept.
My guy, this is Hickman.

I believe that as much as i believed his Orgy talk.

AKA not at fucking all.
 

Manmademan

Member
Aug 6, 2018
5,596
My guy, this is Hickman.

I believe that as much as i believed his Orgy talk.

AKA not at fucking all.
Things might change and I'm sure there are suprises coming down the pike- but as it is we're taking the story at face value. There's been a concious effort to completely abandon the heroes vs. villains thing. of COURSE moira isn't "acting heroic" because the heroic act got everyone killed.
 

fiendcode

Member
Oct 26, 2017
11,705
It's an editorial thing, not an in-universe thing. Marvel doesn't want to do the alternate universe thing with timelines anymore, and changed this starting with the publication of AoU. This includes retroactively rewriting things that WERE alternate universes into alt-timelines like 2099.

you won't see them anymore.
I think you're misunderstanding me, when I say alternate universes I don't mean a literal potential branching futures or pasts (like DOFP started as) but simply a parallel or different alternate reality (like what DOFP ended up really being). Moira's power literally making reality reset seems tougher to conceptualize rather than simply her being able to jump and rebirth in a parallel timeline. Of cpurse this brings up other issues in terms if these timelines being identical to the point of her birth but that doesn't necessarily have to be absolute either.
 

Woozies

Member
Nov 1, 2017
14,034
Things might change and I'm sure there are suprises coming down the pike- but as it is we're taking the story at face value. There's been a concious effort to completely abandon the heroes vs. villains thing. of COURSE moira isn't "acting heroic" because the heroic act got everyone killed.
Yeah, and knowing Hickman and that this is only supposed to be the start.

That's a crock of shit he sells as true when he knows its not.
 

Manmademan

Member
Aug 6, 2018
5,596
I think you're misunderstanding me, when I say alternate universes I don't mean a literal potential branching futures or pasts (like DOFP started as) but simply a parallel or different alternate reality (like what DOFP ended up really being).
I'm not misunderstanding you. I'm saying that this doesn't happen anymore. Time travel (as moira is doing) changes the present timeline, and invalidates the previous one. You don't get coexisting parallel timelines from time travel, and there were editorial reasons for that. In cases where this DID happen (2099 is the best example, it was originally a separate earth) marvel reversed themselves and said "that parallel reality no longer exists. it's a potential future." Future Perfect where the Maestro came from? same thing. It's not a parallel reality, it's a potential future.

Moira's power literally making reality reset seems tougher to conceptualize rather than simply her being able to jump and rebirth in a parallel timeline. Of cpurse this brings up other issues in terms if these timelines being identical to the point of her birth but that doesn't necessarily have to be absolute either.
as mentioned previously, marvel does not do parallel timelines anymore, so this isn't a possibility.

edit: and as TheBlackMarvel helpfully points out, if she was just jumping to new timelines instead of resetting the existing one, then the Dominion would have gone on to absorb the Earth anyway, become aware of her existence in Life 6, and eliminated her already as those things exist outside of space time and would not tolerate her existence.
 
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Manmademan

Member
Aug 6, 2018
5,596
I think they explicitly call out Moira's power as annihilating the universe once she dies so...
Exactly. This is what happens now when you screw around with the past. If the changes you make render that future impossible it's simply obliterated. It doesn't continue to exist as a parallel timeline which is what USED to happen.

Using the X-books specifically as an example, when the 05 chose not to go back, it set in motion a chain of events to the timeline that was obliterating Cable's future, which is what caused young cable to travel to the present. His reality was quite literally coming apart at the seams and being annihilated because of things the 05 did in the past.

Sending them back undid the damage before it was permanent and thus his future is still a possibility, but not an inevitability.
 

fiendcode

Member
Oct 26, 2017
11,705
I'm not misunderstanding you. I'm saying that this doesn't happen anymore. Time travel (as moira is doing) changes the present timeline, and invalidates the previous one. You don't get coexisting parallel timelines from time travel, and there were editorial reasons for that. In cases where this DID happen (2099 is the best example, it was originally a separate earth) marvel reversed themselves and said "that parallel reality no longer exists. it's a potential future." Future Perfect where the Maestro came from? same thing. It's not a parallel reality, it's a potential future.



as mentioned previously, marvel does not do parallel timelines anymore, so this isn't a possibility.

edit: and as TheBlackMarvel helpfully points out, if she was just jumping to new timelines instead of resetting the existing one, then the Dominion would have gone on to absorb the Earth anyway, become aware of her existence in Life 6, and eliminated her already as those things exist outside of space time and would not tolerate her existence.
Wait, what? No, parallel timelines are still in full effect in the MU even after AOU. Exiles, Spiderverse, Gwenpool, etc. I know Brevoort hates the 616 designation and tried his damndest to stamp the old multiverse out but the creative body largely doesn't care and other writers and editors outside his direct purview have been going ahead as they please.
 

Manmademan

Member
Aug 6, 2018
5,596
Wait, what? No, parallel timelines are still in full effect in the MU even after AOU. Exiles, Spiderverse, Gwenpool, etc. I know Brevoort hates the 616 designation and tried his damndest to stamp the old multiverse out but the creative body largely doesn't care and other writers and editors outside his direct purview have been going ahead as they please.
You're not following me.

Parallel universes exist. Spiderverse is an example of this. There are different alternate universes that can be traveled to. That hasn't changed.

What HAS changed is that *time travel no longer causes these alternate universes*.
The Alt-Universes in Universe-8 were created by Franklin Richards/Molecule Man/Reed. You can't spontaneously generate more by time traveling. There is a fixed number of them and (at present) Franklin has burned out and can't make any more.

So, again using 2099 (because it's the easiest one to use) it USED to be an alternate universe with its own designation, caused by time travel. Marvel decided they don't do this anymore, so now it is "Earth 616, year 2099." Changing the present will change what 2099 is, and substantial changes will eliminate 2099 from existence entirely.

Same thing with the future cable is from. It is no longer an alternate universe, but a potential future. Changes to the present can obliterate it and enough changes and it will cease to exist.

So following that example, If Moira reincarnates and changes the past substantially, she annihilates the timeline of the previous life and it no longer exists.

There is no way to create an alternate parallel universe by time traveling since AoU and this has been consistent. There is NO writer that has bucked this.
 

TaleSpun

Member
Oct 25, 2017
5,048
Raven: GIVE ME MY /WIFE/

If they do plan to eventually revive Destiny, will it be the same elderly one or will it be hot Irene because modern Marvel fears having that kind of exposure
It’ll be the one from House #2. That was technically a new design that Larraz came up with himself.

Hickman implied Larraz is drawing the event as well, so that’s probably where that happens.
 

Manmademan

Member
Aug 6, 2018
5,596
It’ll be the one from House #2. That was technically a new design that Larraz came up with himself.

Hickman implied Larraz is drawing the event as well, so that’s probably where that happens.
Destiny wears a mask. I think he's asking whether if/when destiny is revived if she'll be young under the mask, or if she'll be reincarnated as a geriatric.
 

OmniGamer

Member
Oct 27, 2017
596
So didn't Hickman say he would address why Jean's wearing her Marvel Girl outfit after POX #6 comes out? I thought that implied something in the issue would spoil why, but that doesn't seem to be the case
 

TaleSpun

Member
Oct 25, 2017
5,048
Destiny wears a mask. I think he's asking whether if/when destiny is revived if she'll be young under the mask, or if she'll be reincarnated as a geriatric.
Oh okay, gotcha gotcha.

Also, yeah, not sure what else Hickman could do to make it clear this isn’t going to be a binary “good vs. evil” story. It’s going to be a battle of ideologies and egos. His F4 and Avengers were the same.


So didn't Hickman say he would address why Jean's wearing her Marvel Girl outfit after POX #6 comes out? I thought that implied something in the issue would spoil why, but that doesn't seem to be the case
Yeah, that Q/A is being posted on Monday. He probably just likes the outfit lol
 

Manmademan

Member
Aug 6, 2018
5,596
Oh okay, gotcha gotcha.

Also, yeah, not sure what else Hickman could do to make it clear this isn’t going to be a binary “good vs. evil” story. It’s going to be a battle of ideologies and egos. His F4 and Avengers were the same.
Exactly. Straight up villains (Mystique, Sinister, Exodus) are part of the council, but it's explained that say...Exodus is problematic not because he is "evil" but because he simply has an extremely rigid worldview. I expect a lot more of that sort of thing to cause conflict, rather than "Mutant X wants to rule the planet and we need to stop him because we're the good guys."
 

TaleSpun

Member
Oct 25, 2017
5,048
Exactly. Straight up villains (Mystique, Sinister, Exodus) are part of the council, but it's explained that say...Exodus is problematic not because he is "evil" but because he simply has an extremely rigid worldview. I expect a lot more of that sort of thing to cause conflict, rather than "Mutant X wants to rule the planet and we need to stop him because we're the good guys."
Mmhm. I imagine expectations for how certain characters will effect things will be subverted, too. Like at this point, I bet Sinister turns out to be more of a help than a hindrance even if they don’t (or Moira doesn’t) see that as possible.
 

fiendcode

Member
Oct 26, 2017
11,705
You're not following me.

Parallel universes exist. Spiderverse is an example of this. There are different alternate universes that can be traveled to. That hasn't changed.

What HAS changed is that *time travel no longer causes these alternate universes*.
The Alt-Universes in Universe-8 were created by Franklin Richards/Molecule Man/Reed. You can't spontaneously generate more by time traveling. There is a fixed number of them and (at present) Franklin has burned out and can't make any more.

So, again using 2099 (because it's the easiest one to use) it USED to be an alternate universe with its own designation, caused by time travel. Marvel decided they don't do this anymore, so now it is "Earth 616, year 2099." Changing the present will change what 2099 is, and substantial changes will eliminate 2099 from existence entirely.

Same thing with the future cable is from. It is no longer an alternate universe, but a potential future. Changes to the present can obliterate it and enough changes and it will cease to exist.

So following that example, If Moira reincarnates and changes the past substantially, she annihilates the timeline of the previous life and it no longer exists.

There is no way to create an alternate parallel universe by time traveling since AoU and this has been consistent. There is NO writer that has bucked this.
Okay, yes but that's what I'm saying. Moira isn't creating splinter timelines, her consciousness simply hops to a parallel (very similar) one. There's actually no "new creation" then and it honestly gels better with current editorial fiat.

This idea that Moira reincarnates and resets the timeline really just doesn't work within the framework of the multiverse either; because there's countless Moiras and the notion they're each constantly resetting their realities really just is sort of untenable. Maybe if our Moira is "unique" it becomes simpler to rationalize but constant continued timeline annihilation across the multiverse with a near infinite Moiras is something that larger powers would've taken notice of well before now.
 

rude

Member
Oct 25, 2017
6,311
So her 11th life is still on the table whenever what’s currently happening goes to shit. wouldn’t be surprised if Hickman turns it into the first event of his run.
 

Manmademan

Member
Aug 6, 2018
5,596
Okay, yes but that's what I'm saying. Moira isn't creating splinter timelines, her consciousness simply hops to a parallel (very similar) one. There's actually no "new creation" then and it honestly gels better with current editorial fiat.
there is no parallel (very similar) one, because the universes that exist in marvel were created by Franklin and all distinct from each other. Many of these were destroyed by the Entropy Abstract in Fantastic Four earlier this year. There are not an indefinite number of Earths all identical up to the point of Moira's conception.

There is exactly one, and it's timeline is being reset.

This idea that Moira reincarnates and resets the timeline really just doesn't work within the framework of the multiverse either; because there's countless Moiras and the notion they're each constantly resetting their realities really just is sort of untenable. Maybe if our Moira is "unique" it becomes simpler to rationalize but constant continued timeline annihilation across the multiverse with a near infinite Moiras is something that larger powers would've taken notice of well before now.
I'm not sure why you're struggling with this concept so much. There is one universe at play here, with Moira's conciousness time traveling back to her conception every time she's killed, resetting the timeline. One Moira, One Earth, one timeline that's annihilated when she "resets" events. Alternate universes are unaffected because there are no Moiras there.

The larger powers don't care what happens to a single universe unless that event is catastrophic, because there are (or were) millions of universes out there.

and once again, the marvel multiverse as it exists is not infinite. It is composed of a finite amount of distinct universes Franklin made, many of which were obliterated in the current run of Fantastic Four.

edit: you're also overlooking that if the timeline of life-6 isn't annihilated, then the Dominion (which exists outside of space-time) would have destroyed Moira as it would have considered her existence intolerable. The fact that it has not means that it is not a parallel timeline, but a potential future that was invalidated at the moment of her death and reincarnation.
 
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fiendcode

Member
Oct 26, 2017
11,705
there is no parallel (very similar) one, because the universes that exist in marvel were created by Franklin and all distinct from each other. Many of these were destroyed by the Entropy Abstract in Fantastic Four earlier this year. There are not an indefinite number of Earths all identical up to the point of Moira's conception.

There is exactly one, and it's timeline is being reset.

I'm not sure why you're struggling with this concept so much. There is one universe at play here, with Moira's conciousness time traveling back to her conception every time she's killed, resetting the timeline. One Moira, One Earth, one timeline that's annihilated when she "resets" events. Alternate universes are unaffected because there are no Moiras there.

The larger powers don't care what happens to a single universe unless that event is catastrophic, because there are (or were) millions of universes out there.

and once again, the marvel multiverse as it exists is not infinite. It is composed of a finite amount of distinct universes Franklin made, many of which were obliterated in the current run of Fantastic Four.
It's a struggle because there's not one Moira though, she's not unique to 616. So every Moira in every universe (now finite okay but previously infinite) would be burning realities and her I-IX lives were in the "old" multiverse as well so any AOU shift wouldn't need to apply. Until we know more about how her powers work it's largely academic but I just don't see how the "timeline annihilation" can really work even within the framework of a "finite" multiverse. There are ways around that (our Moira being multiversally unique without true analogues, which itself isn't a new concept) but we'd need that clarification from Hickman.

Who knows, maybe we'll get that? Or maybe we'll get Rasputin popping out of a black hole in the Mojoverse? Lots of possibilities.
 

TaleSpun

Member
Oct 25, 2017
5,048
*shrug* or maybe the machines and advanced humans simply used tech on hand to keep them alive. The librarian DEFINITELY knew that if moira died it would reset the timeline, so keeping her alive indefinitely was paramount.
We were shown Logan living for a 1000+ years with no real difference beyond some grey hair in TWO lifelines, so this will definitely be followed up on.
 

Manmademan

Member
Aug 6, 2018
5,596
It's a struggle because there's not one Moira though, she's not unique to 616.
There is exactly one Moira that anyone is aware of.

So every Moira in every universe (now finite okay but previously infinite)
Universe-8 was NEVER infinite. You're thinking of Pre-AoU Universe7, which was destroyed during Time Runs Out.

As I said, you're trying to shoehorn the structure of a multiverse into this scenario that Marvel has flat out said doesn't exist.
Universe-8 has a different history and structure than Universe-7.

Universe-8 is not infinite, and never has been. It's composed of a limited number of completely distinct universes conceived of by Franklin.

An inifinite number of universes with only slight changes was a Universe-7 thing, and this was explicitly the case because time travel (edit: or significant actions) would create splinter universes with only minor changes. You *could* get a universe with an infinite number of very similar moiras in very similar circumstances (up until Marvel changed their minds with AoU), but in Universe-8 this is impossible.

What you're theorizing can't happen.
 
OP
OP
Dalek

Dalek

Member
Oct 25, 2017
13,105
That was a weird one, and i'm not sure what to make of it. I guess? But there isn't really a scenario where even Logan would survive 1000 years by his mutation alone. He still ages.
I think this has always been up to the discretion of the writer. We usually see
Wolverine in future scenarios and he just doesn’t die.
He’s also The Phoenix eventually
 

deimosmasque

Member
Apr 22, 2018
1,652
Tampa, Fl
We were shown Logan living for a 1000+ years with no real difference beyond some grey hair in TWO lifelines, so this will definitely be followed up on.
And another possible future with Morrison's Here Comes Tommorow.

Old Man Logan history is one where his healing factor weakened significantly and is basically just making sure he doesnt die of heavy metal poisoning.
 

Aaronology

Member
Oct 27, 2017
524
Chicago
So we could safely assume now that Charles is not really himself, at least as a result of Moira screwing with his psyche?
Charles is Charles but Moira's knowledge irrevocably altered him and those who learn the truth. Magneto and Xavier were radicalized in past lives by Moira revealing to them her history.

So "not really himself" is kind of the point.
 

fiendcode

Member
Oct 26, 2017
11,705
There is exactly one Moira that anyone is aware of.
Universe-8 was NEVER infinite. You're thinking of Pre-AoU Universe7, which was destroyed during Time Runs Out.

As I said, you're trying to shoehorn the structure of a multiverse into this scenario that Marvel has flat out said doesn't exist.
You're not listening, I'm not talking about the old string theory multiverse that Secret Wars ended. I'm talking about now, continually reincarnating realities becomes a potential problem and something you'd think larger powers would notice when there's more than one running in parallel, it's an issue with the current multiverse (which yes, is still a multiverse even if not expanding on it's own).

And we've seen Moiras in different realities before, ours even swapped with one for awhile, but I guess we haven't recently post Secret Wars. If Franklin just made one Moira then sure, that could explain things but that also seems incredibly unlikely. Again, we need a lot more clarification here before we can make absolute statements on this and all we've had to go on so far is some pretty vague comments from Irene (III?) and Moira X's own first hand experience.
 

OmniGamer

Member
Oct 27, 2017
596
That was a weird one, and i'm not sure what to make of it. I guess? But there isn't really a scenario where even Logan would survive 1000 years by his mutation alone. He still ages.
Yeah weird...my initial reaction was whatever blood augmentation done was good enough for extra long life but not good enough for the type of stab wounds Logan routinely heals from?